What is "dirty electric"?

[joshuabardwell]

It's purpose built and, as such, does it's job. I wouldn't be surprised to find the frequency off too. But do the lights care?

Incandescent lights don't care. They will burn out faster if you overload them. That's about it.

 

[techman]

It's purpose built and, as such, does it's job. I wouldn't be surprised to find the frequency off too. But do the lights care?

If the frequency holds, sounds like the engine governor is good. As for the voltage variation, a descent generator, like Leroy Somer should have a voltage regulator. Cheaper generators use a scheme where the voltage is speed dependent and set for 60 Hz, but better gens use a separate electronic voltage regulator. Check it out, and it may be a bad regulator. My Mecce Alte head holds voltage within a volt or two.

paul

 

[John White]

Well after reading the information on this post. I went down to my shop and did some more checking on my gen. I might be in for some serious expense or retrofitting. I just purchased one of these little light plants that you see construction workers use at night along the highway. It is a 6000watt continous run, with a Leroy Soner gen head and a Kubota 850 engine. I went and did a voltage check again yesterday and found I am getting 130 volts. About 125 with a 100watt bulb and when plugging 2 1500 box heaters it drops to about 105. The engine does not pick up any speed. I am wondering if they even put a governor on this type of engine, since it is set up to run lights only and set the speed and forget it because nothing else is kicking on like at a house. I ordered one of those frequency meter off e-bay which should be here by the week end. I am going to try and stop by and ask a Kubota dealer and see what he says, and if I get time I am going to stop by a Sun Belt rental place as they have several light plants and see how they are set up. I am beginning to get a bad feeling.

Well I stopped by a Kubota dealer and they said there is no provision for adding a governor to this engine for a gen. Stopped by Sun Belt, which rents out light plants and they said that light plants have no governot, just a throttle setting and are not designed to have loads applied at random like a home gen. Sounds like I am going to be looking for a different gen. Trying to find out if aftermarket makes a electronic speed sensor that would work.

 

[k0ua]

Well I stopped by a Kubota dealer and they said there is no provision for adding a governor to this engine for a gen. Stopped by Sun Belt, which rents out light plants and they said that light plants have no governot, just a throttle setting and are not designed to have loads applied at random like a home gen. Sounds like I am going to be looking for a different gen. Trying to find out if aftermarket makes a electronic speed sensor that would work.

You could put a Sola ferroresonant transformer between the light plant genny and your load to act as a regulator. But they are not cheap especially at higher currents.

http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/files/sola.pdf

James K0UA

 

[techman]

Don't be misled, all diesel engines have governors built in the injection pumps. Diesel's don't use just a throttle control. The major difference is that engines that are supplied specifically for generators may have a governor that has tighter control. But every Kubota engine will have a governor. The basic engine, such as on a tractor, will track within a few hertz. I think you will find that the frequency does not deviate much on the gen setup you have. It still sounds to me like a voltage regulator issue.

paul

 

[BobRip]

There are non critical loads like electric heaters and light bulbs (probably others to) that don't require good frequency and voltage regulation. Having a frequency and volt meter (kil o watt for example) will help you deal with this. As said there may be a regulator problem. A fan should work ok too.

 

[John White]

Well I got my frequency and voltage meter today. I am sure having truouble tracking down any one that knows any thing about a Leroy Somer Gen. It was sold by Coleman enginerring but the only thing Coleman had to do with it is put their sticker on it. Cant get much info from Leroy Somer. When I hook up my meter and speed the engine up to where it reads 60 hrtz it is reading 89 volts. When I speed it to where it reads 120 volts then I am getting 73 hrts. When I apply 2 1500 watt heaters and set the engine speed to where I am getting 60hrts, I get 82 volts. When I speed it up to where I get 120 volts then I get 79hrtz, unplug the heaters and if I dont change the engine speed it reads 150 volts, 79hrtz. This I took the covers off the gen. and there is no regulator for this gen. and according to one person I talked to they said one could not be added to this type of set up. On person on here said it might be a bad capacitor. It appears to have a new capacitor, but it was mounted so that viberation wore off the specs. It is a Dayton (Granger) brand and Coleman said it should be 70 MFD 440 volts. I can see the 440 volts but not sure about the MFD. I looked in Grangers book and they do not list a 70mfd. Only a 60 and a 80. I took it to a elec shop and they couldnt tell me if it was good or not because they didnt know what size it was. It does have two diodes in the system but the genset will have to be pulled to get to it to unsolder the connections. Some one asked me if I knew if they were good? Any one got any ideas. Do I need to install a larger capacitor or smaller one. Dont want to guess wrong as they are not cheap. Do you think one of the diodes is bad? I need to get the voltage up and the hertz down. If you think I should start a different post to get help, please let me know. As far as the governor question, they do have a built in governor to limit top speed but no provision for installing one that will react quickely to generator loads. One co. said they could supply me with a engine speed control system ($1000.) and I would have to drill holes in the flywheel and mount a sensor. Dont want to go that route. I even thought about a aftermarket cruse control system I use to install on cars in the 70's. There was no speedo conection made to the cable at all, only a magnet and a sensor taped to the drive shaft, a vaccum servo hoked to the throttle, a hose to vaccum source and battery connections and cruse button on steering wheel. I have no idea where I could find one now.

 

[RickB]

Give it a coat of wax and put it in the next local consignment auction. Time to cut bait and buy something that will fill your needs reliably.
You are trying to make cookies out of cat dung.

 

[BobRip]

Give it a coat of wax and put it in the next local consignment auction. Time to cut bait and buy something that will fill your needs reliably.
You are trying to make cookies out of cat dung.

Well said. This generator was not designed to run anything but lights. Even with a regulator this will not put out the right frequency and voltage at the same time. You risk damaging most things that you plug into it.

 

[joshuabardwell]

Give it a coat of wax and put it in the next local consignment auction. Time to cut bait and buy something that will fill your needs reliably.
You are trying to make cookies out of cat dung.

Well said. This generator was not designed to run anything but lights. Even with a regulator this will not put out the right frequency and voltage at the same time. You risk damaging most things that you plug into it.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

What they said.

 

[Mace Canute]

John White, did you test your new meter with house voltage?

 

[RickB]

John White, did you test your new meter with house voltage?

Very good question. Verify your test equipment.

 

[John White]

John White, did you test your new meter with house voltage?

yes. Checks good

 

[k0ua]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

What they said.

yeah I dont think even a good SOLA is going to boost that 89 volts up to 120 at the 60hz you need... That thing is not what you want or need. it is just for running lights. sell it to someone that needs it for that.

James K0UA

 

[techman]

If the generator is a lower cost unit, it likely has what is called "capacitor regulation" rather than electronic regulation. This is a scheme that relies on speed (frequency) to hold the proper voltage. There are usually one or two large capacitors in the generator jbox. These capacitors could be bad, or out of spec. Replacing them could resolve your voltage issue. Go to: http://www.leroy-somer.com There is a log of good information, manuals etc on the site. Could be a fairly simple. low cost fix.

paul

 

[John White]

I think I might have found the problem. Will one of you fellows who understands this more than I do give me a helping hand. But from what I understand here on this webb site http://www.leroy-somer.com/documentation_pdf/notices_pdf/0331a_fr_en.pdf It is missing a capacator. Would one of you fellows go to this webb site for me and look at the diagram. Mine has only one capacator, the way I understand this diagram, it should have two. (look at the 240 volt diagram) Look in the parts listing and from what I read, it says 1 pair.

 

[MasseyWV]

I thought "dirty electric" was one of those egg-shaped things that some women like to use.

I think I might have found the problem. Will one of you fellows who understands this more than I do give me a helping hand. But from what I understand here on this webb site http://www.leroy-somer.com/documentation_pdf/notices_pdf/0331a_fr_en.pdf It is missing a capacator. Would one of you fellows go to this webb site for me and look at the diagram. Mine has only one capacator, the way I understand this diagram, it should have two. (look at the 240 volt diagram) Look in the parts listing and from what I read, it says 1 pair.

Seriously though...

In most electrical circuits, adding additional capacitance (IE: bigger or more capacitors) will reduce electrical noise, hence less-dirty electricity. However, it greatly depends on the application. From what I can tell by looking at the PDF link you provided, it doesn't appear that adding a second capacitor identical to the one you have would hurt anything, and in fact it may help solve your problem. I am not certain though. It's also entirely possible that your existing capacitor is going bad, which would cause the same effect.

 

[techman]

John:

Does it look like there was a capacitor there before ? If so, then one is likely missing. There is also a test gor the capacitors. Did you perform the test ? Could also be one or both diodes bad. Worth removal and testing as well.

Likely could be a bad cap. Replacement could be an inexpensive repair.

paul

 

[k0ua]

I read it as one "set" and by that they mean 2 caps, and the pictorial diagram also show 2 caps. the value of the caps are either 70 , 100, 130, or 150 microFarad depending on the model apparently. I would not do the capacitor test as they outline it by measuring current hooked to a 240 volt mains circuit.. NO not for all the tea in china thank you, and I have worked in plenty of high voltage circuits. I would test them (after totally discharging them) with an ohmmeter. This is a little more tricky in that you have to have a feel for a 70 or 100 uF cap how it will "kick" the meter after reversing the leads. . Of course if shorted, you will see that and any lingering resistance is a "leaky" cap, and no reverse kick is an open cap . Hooking up to 240 volt ac mains is a little dangerous. Up to you. one thing of note: The stated regulation is 5%. I don't think you are getting 5% regulation from full to to no load..example if your no load voltage was 120 volts, full load could be expected to be no lower than 114 volts. If setup for 240 volts. than you could expect no lower than 228 volts. Good luck with it.

James K0UA

 

[BobRip]

This looks like you have the right kind of generator for your application. My previous post saying get rid of it was wrong. Sorry about that. It is possible you have a bad capacitor. A lot of multimeters today can measure capacitance. See if you can borrow one or buy one. Capacitors are a fairly high failure item. As stated earlier does it look like there were previously two there? Can you check the diodes and winding resistances? It looks like these will affect voltage.
Also can you get a tach and measure the engine speed as you change load. If the speed is pretty constant and the frequency changes then it is probably the capacitor. I am not an expert on these generators, I have just been reading the link.