What caused this

[dstig1]

Carl, Mark was dissing you. Take it to him! Tear him up!

:laughing::laughing:

Go watch Pulp Fiction one time and this paraphrasing will make more sense to you "Say "Hobbyist" one more time!!!!"

Sheesh man, how many "Hobbyists" do open root pipe. I should start a policy that opens a can of (polite) whoop ***** on you when you say you are a hobbyist.... I mean jeesh - 40 years of welding and supervising means you are a RETIRED weldor, not a hobbyist. Now quit it or I will be forced to put lots of smilies in these posts!!!

 

[joshuabardwell]

Sheesh man, how many "Hobbyists" do open root pipe. I should start a policy that opens a can of (polite) whoop ***** on you when you say you are a hobbyist.... I mean jeesh - 40 years of welding and supervising means you are a RETIRED weldor, not a hobbyist. Now quit it or I will be forced to put lots of smilies in these posts!!!

:cool2:

:drink:

unch:

:stirthepot:

 

[ghenges]

A mig weld is not shallow penetrating unless you make it so. That is a myth. And it's more of an issue with a technique. If you try to "paint" on a weld over the seam, nothing is going to work. The metal in that unit is not all that thick...maybe a 1/4". A little grinding out a groove and fill it up. In fact, that is the method of choice it appears to weld the stove from the manufacturer. It's likely from a creation of a large HAZ combined with shrink swell issues as it is. Stick would likely increase the HAZ. Stick would work. But it's not necessary.

Respectfully Sir,
You are a salesman, that deserves respect because nothing gets done until something gets sold.
Advertisers support these forums and I understand the power of "that" deal.
Advertisers on some forums actually have the power to have members expelled from the forums for talking adversely about or outright criticizing an advertiser's products, we'll see if that's true here too..

I have owned a 250 amp Miller MIG welding (soldering) machine for 25 years that has been employed for basically one function -- corner welding sheet metal. Yeah, it could be cranked up to do semi-important work, but why would you want to deal with all the disadvantages and all the moving parts of a Mig machine?

Go out on a big construction job, (where welding lead is delivered by trailer truck loads), 6010 and 7018s out of rod heaters is basically all you'll see. The reason -- when it's important, stick is the method.

Three inch wall 5000 psi steam pipe isn't MIG welded in power plants, although it would seem an ideal situation for a MIG welder. I've stress relieved those joints and know the skill required to place such welds when lives depend on it..

I wouldn't want some 200 ton overhead crane that was Mig welded rolling above my head.

Certainly Mig welding has it's place,
but in a home/farm shop a 250 amp DC welder, a rod heater and about 100 feet of leads is a better choice if just one machine is desired.

 

[Shield Arc]

Carl, Mark was dissing you. Take it to him! Tear him up!

:laughing::laughing:

Go watch Pulp Fiction one time and this paraphrasing will make more sense to you "Say "Hobbyist" one more time!!!!"

Sheesh man, how many "Hobbyists" do open root pipe. I should start a policy that opens a can of (polite) whoop ***** on you when you say you are a hobbyist.... I mean jeesh - 40 years of welding and supervising means you are a RETIRED weldor, not a hobbyist. Now quit it or I will be forced to put lots of smilies in these posts!!!

Honestly I didn't work as a weldor all that many years, maybe 10 at the most. One day I was on a fairly large job welding. A guy in the rigging crew didn't show up to work, I got sent over to take his place. That was pretty much the end of my welding career. In time I ended up as the rigging foreman, then field superintendent, then project superintendent. So when I say I'm a hobbyist weldor that's not too far of a stretch.

 

[joshuabardwell]

Certainly Mig welding has it's place,
but in a home/farm shop a 250 amp DC welder, a rod heater and about 100 feet of leads is a better choice if just one machine is desired.

There's clearly more to this story. The bushing on my trailer receiver tube appears to have been MIG welded. Also, my tractor bucket ears. Those are pretty important welds.

I recall a break test that someone did... I can't remember if it was Lanse, Jody, Carl, or whomever, but the MIG weld held on while the coupon bent back and forth like a flag in the wind. There's no reason that MIG can't be strong. If it's often not, that has more to do with the operator than the process.

 

[arrow]

I sure would be replacing them bricks though .

Fred H.

I agree. This break happened above the the brick line however. I would hope to think that fire log height should have little to do with a wood stove cracking or else do not make the firebox so large. Lets face it, these new fangled EPA stoves are way more delicate than the old ones. More efficient definitely but of course, manufacturers are not going to tell you the extent of this frailty as they would scare off people from buying them. "Overfiring will void warranty" Beyond, "no part of the stove should glow red" manufacturers are a bit tight lipped about what can happen beyond "voiding warranty". Had I known, then I would have watched this stove like a doctor watches a cancer patient on chemo and if I had to do this, i would not have bought the stove which is exactly what they are trying to avoid. I feel a bit suckered in.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

Ghenges. They don't stick weld Caterpillars together. I too have a 250, rather 270 amp MIG welder (ESAB). Nothing I have ever sent out has come back broken. I regularly weld 1/2" and thicker plate. I've passed many bend tests in plate metal. There's another current thread here with a "failed" stick weld showing exactly how even a stick welder can get a bad reputation, but when it boils down to it, it is all in experience and technique. My statement has nothing to do with "sales". I made that same basic statement to someone else on a forum before I ever began working for this company several years ago who erroneously posted the same thing.

We have a large rail car repair shop here. Know what their main form of repair is? Flux core and MIG (dual shield).

 

[ChristianHF]

Going to have to agree with Mark. Seen Mig used in MANY critical (life or death would occur from failure) heavy industry applications. And for the record I don't sponsor or sell anything here let alone use welders in my line of work.

Just as an example, heavy lift crane companies don't seem to have a problem with Mig...

Oklahoma City Welders (2g Cranes) 6 Positions Jobs at Terex

Chris.

 

[Shield Arc]

Personally I think the biggest problem with Mig welding is, people don't run it hot enough!
The 3-years I worked in a fab shop building nuclear waste tanks we had to requalify every 3-months in every process, with each size wire / rod and position that we had papers in. I took numerous 1-inch V-butt side bend tests with 1/16-inch Mig wire. Failed my very first vertical up test, because I ran it too cold! Boy it was beautiful, but just had too many flaws to pass code. I never ever let that happen again!
I don't know how true it is, but I've been told side bend tests are harder to pass than face and root bend tests.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/welding/237081-vertical-uphill-w-mig.html

 

[dstig1]

Well whatever you want call yourself, Carl, you sure lay down some very nice welds! Always a pleasure to see your work.

 

[FredH]

Not bashing original op ( Arrow ) on your operation of stove . As I Stated , My Parents have almost identical stove in their living room . Hottest he has ever had it was 700 , with usual hi temp only being in the low 600 range , with operating range from mid 400's to upper 500 range , depending on what they are doing , ( early morning start-up to mid day shut down ) . In your picture , there is obvious dis-coloration on that side meaning it has gotten very hot , thus my questioning of the ash pile . As I also stated , there is a reason that the fire brick is there and " Yes " your stove cracked above the fire brick , but with ash pile so deep basically your main heart of fire was burning above the brick line also .

Been around and used wood stoves all my life , Does not matter what brand , style or material it is made from , they all have limitations . Virtually all makers of Every product on the market have limitations to warranties , thus protecting themselves in some sort of fashion . I Don't Sell or have anything to do with Quadra fire , I do own this fire place : http://www.quadrafire.com/en/Products/7100-Wood-Fireplace.aspx# and my Parent's is similar to yours . We have had Ours for 5 year's ( maybe 4 ?? , old age , cannot remember ) , while my parents is like at least 10 year old , neither with issue's .

I really doubt you can find any stove maker that would back up a warranty once they looked at the stove .

Fred H.

 

[Renze]

I agree that a big high amperage MIG will penetrate, but as Ghenges said, those little 110V MIG machines just lay the metal on top and aren't much better bonded than Bondo.

Yep but you cant say that with a welder salesman nearby !! It destroys all appetite for people to buy the more expensive MIG instead of the better penetrating buzzbox !!
I've burned my number of wire rolls, both with high-end commercial welders, and 160A hobby welders. Even with a small MIG at high amperage, you just dont get more penetration, but get a flatter bead. So you end up grinding beveled edges to get things solidly attached.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

Yep but you cant say that with a welder salesman nearby !! It destroys all appetite for people to buy the more expensive MIG instead of the better penetrating buzzbox !!
I've burned my number of wire rolls, both with high-end commercial welders, and 160A hobby welders. Even with a small MIG at high amperage, you just dont get more penetration, but get a flatter bead. So you end up grinding beveled edges to get things solidly attached.

That's what you are supposed to do with ANY weld over 3/16" or so in the first place. A single pass, gobby weld is destined for failure. Small, multi pass welds are what they use on pipe and any critical weld. It sounds as if you haven't been properly taught because of this statement.

As far as the flatter bead comment goes, that depends upon a lot of different factors, most of which surround technique, whether you push or pull...inductance, wire speed, gas type etc. Pulling produces a narrow deeply penetrating bead.

As far as a welder salesman goes...I sell ALL processes, so the argument isn't making any sense. Truth be known, TIG is the preferred method for quality welds...But I haven't promoted that...even though that is our main business and my bread and butter.

When you are talking penetration, for the root pass, you need a key hole, but the root pass may not be but less than 1/8" thick if done correctly. The weld on the back looks almost as good as the front. It's more of a "bridge" for future passes. The rest of the passes need only to melt the top layer and fuse the bottom of the top weld to the top of the bottom weld without voids. At this point penetration means something different, and anyone seeking more penetration than this is destined for a failed weld due to a large Heat Affected Zone (HAZ).

 

[joshuabardwell]

Not bashing original op ( Arrow ) on your operation of stove . As I Stated , My Parents have almost identical stove in their living room . Hottest he has ever had it was 700 , with usual hi temp only being in the low 600 range , with operating range from mid 400's to upper 500 range , depending on what they are doing , ( early morning start-up to mid day shut down )

That is consistent with my experience. My stove's manual says that peak operating efficiency is between 400 and 600 degrees surface temp. At 600 degrees surface temp, the burn tubes will be between 900-1000 degrees, which is right about where iron and steel start to glow, so I figure a surface temp over 600 degrees is overfiring. Now, like I said, there have been a time or two when the stove got away from me and got to a surface temp of as much as 850 degrees, and it doesn't seem to have done it any harm, but I suspect that such harm can be both cumulative as well as catastrophic, so I don't make a habit of it.

EDIT TO ADD: My stove is a Jotul F500.

 

[Scooby074]

Did you post over at Hearth? Those guys will know whats up and if this is a common problem.

 

[Scooby074]

Personally I think the biggest problem with Mig welding is, people don't run it hot enough!

This is it in a nutshell. MIG is a fine process but you need proper joint prep and HEAT. At a previous employer we built and maintained aggregate equipment and 95% of it was mig. These things took all kinds of abuse and vibrations with no failures, but we had BIG MP machines with lots of power.

Problem is people go out and buy a $500 mig "glue gun" and have attractive looking yet weak welds, because they are trying to use it to weld stuff way over its capacity. A $500 stick is a better purchase for these people on a budget, but stick requires practice to have nice welds (as we all know) and sure isnt as sexy as push button mig.

Same sort of thing with plasma IMHO. O/A is just as good, actually better for many on here because it has the ability to heat rusted items, but it isn't as easy or sexy as plasma.

 

[rankrank1]

This is it in a nutshell. MIG is a fine process but you need proper joint prep and HEAT. At a previous employer we built and maintained aggregate equipment and 95% of it was mig. These things took all kinds of abuse and vibrations with no failures, but we had BIG MP machines with lots of power.

Problem is people go out and buy a $500 mig "glue gun" and have attractive looking yet weak welds, because they are trying to use it to weld stuff way over its capacity. A $500 stick is a better purchase for these people on a budget, but stick requires practice to have nice welds (as we all know) and sure isnt as sexy as push button mig.

Same sort of thing with plasma IMHO. O/A is just as good, actually better for many on here because it has the ability to heat rusted items, but it isn't as easy or sexy as plasma.

Actually the problem is worse than you think as far too many people go out and buy the $89-$129 wire feeders from Harbor Freight (and other discount outlets like TSC) that are AC only and there is not a mig wire (or flux core wire) made that is designed for AC. In most of these cases the welds are neither pretty nor strong.

If they would only bother to spend a few more dollars to get something decent then that mig unit would be fine if used within its design limits, but everybody tries to overextend the capabilities of even the decent smaller machines. I do agree with you though that a capable stick welder is by far the best value going for those on a budget.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

The type unit from HF you speak of is only really about 70 or 80 amps though they list more. You can't weld anything with a 70 amp stick welder very well either.

 

[94BULLITT]

I emailed quadrafire when I got my 5700 and asked how hot you could get it. They said you could normally fire it to 650* or spike it to 700*. They said you can tell if you are over firing it if the fire brick are peeling.

 

[Shield Arc]

This over firing of a wood stove seems so strange to me. Never heard of the term until this thread. But then again I have never bought a wood stove. Built a few though, the ones for my self I've seen red hot, and no problems. :confused3: