Well Water Has Suddenly Gone Brown

[steve tym]

Because in my neck of the woods, it's not unusual to have pumps that will make over 300 pounds of pressure. When the valve closes and the tank is filling at 1/2 gpm and you put 300 pounds of pressure on pipe that is rated for 160 psi......could be a problem.

 

[steve tym]

It also seems terribly energy inefficient.

 

[steve tym]

On a side note, what's a "disruptive product?". Sorry OP.

 

[Yander]

A market disruptor is a product or service that disrupts the sale of another product or service. Usually in a bad way but can be in a good way too.

i.e. a solar farm would disrupt the sale of coal or a coal burning power plant.

 

[steve tym]

Thank you, never heard that term before.

 

[Hay Dude]

I had similar incident recently. Well is located in a landscape bed. We mulched with new black triple shred mulch. Then it rained big time. We think the rain washed dye off the mulch and into the well. Black-stained water for a few days. We must have a fissure in our casing somewhere.
I have an RO system for drinking water. Don’t know yet what it did to filters.

 

[hube2]

I have always had sediment in my water here and lots of things contribute to it. Originally the well was 180 feet. Some time around 1998 it went try do to a drought and had it drilled to about 240. The casing does not go all the way down. Since then the sediment can be worse than it was. It mostly happens when it rains, the heavier the rain the more sediment it gets. My well guy figures that when the ground water level goes up due to rain that water pours into the well from higher inlets and this stirs up the water. A week without rain and there's no sediment.

I have a hole house filter, three 20 micron filters in parallel.

Also, if you just replaced the pump, that could have had something to do with it. I had my pump replaced 2 years ago, it was running almost continuously to get and keep my system up to pressure. A pump that is running continuously can stir things up.

Like other said, wait a few days and see if it clears. If it's raining now wait a few days after the rain has stopped.

 

[Valveman]

Because in my neck of the woods, it's not unusual to have pumps that will make over 300 pounds of pressure. When the valve closes and the tank is filling at 1/2 gpm and you put 300 pounds of pressure on pipe that is rated for 160 psi......could be a problem.

With a pump that can build over 300 PSI it is usually in a low producing well with a high static water level. A pump building that much pressure is unusual and is the hardest application for a CSV. But usually the well pipe is rated for enough pressure to handle the back pressure. We just have to use two CSV's in series to stair step the pressure down from 300 to the 50 PSI constant that you need. Even 300 PSI back pressure is easier on the pump than cycling on and off.

However, most low producing wells are equipped with a cistern or storage tank, so the pressure from the pump is a moot point. Then the CSV is used on the booster pump to keep it from cycling on and off while the house uses water.

 

[Valveman]

It also seems terribly energy inefficient.

The CSV is just as efficient as a VFD, which many people claim will SAVE energy even thought it doesn't. However, both the VFD and the CSV use more energy per gallon when using low flow rates. A house doesn't use much water, and there is usually no difference in the electric bill when using a CSV. But even if it cost two dollars a month more in electricity, it more than makes up for that in the longevity of the pump and equipment.

Efficiency really only matters when using water for long terms like irrigation. So, when irrigating, care must be taken to use enough water to keep the pump efficient, same as it is with any pump control system. When using max flow from the pump, it is just as efficient with a CSV as without.

 

[Valveman]

On a side note, what's a "disruptive product?". Sorry OP.

I didn't know what is was either. I also had never heard of "planned obsolescence". And I got real angry when I figured out what they were. I cannot believe that almost every product we buy is deigned to fail in a certain and short amount of time, but they are. I had been going to pump schools and factory training for 25 years with them telling me their pump was better than the others because of blah, blah, blah, and I could make them last longer by installing them in this or that way. But when they were offered a real solution to making pumps last longer and use smaller tanks, they wanted nothing to do with it. That is when I figured out the manufacturers are out to get us. They build planned obsolescence into everything we buy.

The quote I got from the retired engineers for those pump companies was this. "Cycle Stop Valves make pumps last longer and use smaller tanks. Anyone who works for the company, who makes pumps and tanks, that even mentions a CSV will be fired immediately."

I always thought if you "Built a better mousetrap, people would beat a path to your door". I found out if you make a mousetrap so good it could make mice extinct, they will do everything they can to put you out of business, as there is a lot of money in mousetraps, just like in pumps.

 

[steve tym]

When a tank manufacturer offered a 7 year warrenty, I asked the other manufacturer if they were going to step up. The answer "If we have to warrenty the tank for 7 years, we have to build it to last 14, do you really want it to last that long?". I almost cried. I agree with you, they know exactly how long stuff will last and engineer it to have a limited life, even if it doesn't cost anymore.
I always promote 3 wire motors, large tanks and rigid pipe.

 

[Valveman]

Can't believe you got them to admit the tanks were made to fail after a certain time. That employee will get fired if they find out. It is a part of most non-disclosure agreements that no one talks about planned obsolescence. Usually only the higher ups in the corporations know anything about it. Most employees have never heard of it and don't know it is happening.

Air charge in your tank is critical to the life expectancy of every (most) component of your system.

I also agree with you on that statement. The reason the air charge in the tank is so critical is because that is what determines how often and how many times the pump will cycle on and off. A low air charge causes the pump to cycle more often, which is bad for the pump. But even a correct air charge is only enough to limit the cycling to the 1 minute or 2 minutes of run time recommended by the pump manufacturers. They recommend a 1 or 2 minute run time as that is how they determine how much quality they need to put into a pump to make it last past the warranty date. When using a Cycle Stop Valve the pump will not just run for a minute or two, it will run for as long as you are using water. Th CSV eliminates so many cycles that is shoots the pump manufacturers planned obsolescence in the foot. Pumps that were designed to last an average of 7 years are now lasting 30+ years. Same thing with the pressure tank. The bladders are designed to last about 7 years of going up and down from cycling. But if using a CSV it may take 30 years to put what is usually 7 years worth of cycles on the tank bladder. I understand why pump and tank manufacturers don't like me. But anyone who has a pump system of their own will save thousands and have stronger water pressure with a CSV.

 

[steve tym]

Anybody hear from the OP? How's his water doing?
I might have found someone that promotes longer system life, that's unusual.
Common in my area are 2 wire motors, small tanks (less than a 1 minute run time) and pumps set on poly pipe.
I like your arguments for the CSV, they have their place. I've always shied away because of the over pressure issues, but if it's a smaller lower pressure pump.....

 

[Valveman]

Anybody hear from the OP? How's his water doing?
I might have found someone that promotes longer system life, that's unusual.
Common in my area are 2 wire motors, small tanks (less than a 1 minute run time) and pumps set on poly pipe.
I like your arguments for the CSV, they have their place. I've always shied away because of the over pressure issues, but if it's a smaller lower pressure pump.....

The OP changed or added to the topic when his pump quit from a start cap going out. So, I think we are still on topic as both problems can be related. I just keep trying to ease doubts about the CSV as it will solve one of those problems, and maybe both, if the sediment is related to the pump cycling. I only suggest it because I am sure it will help the OP with the start cap problem, and could very well help with the sediment problem as well.

The only reason a 3 wire motor is better than a 2 wire is because it will handle more cycling. A small tank is OK with a CSV as the water just goes right past the tank when you are using it anyway. And poly pipe is fine as long as it is rated for the pressure required, and used with metal, extra long barbs with two hose clamps. Cycling is usually what causes problems with poly as it slaps around more than rigid pipe. Eliminate cycling and pumps last a long time even with 2 wire motors, small tanks, and poly pipe. And again, may even help with the sediment as well as many other things.

I understand your concern about the back pressure, but it is not "over pressure". It took me about 30 years to realize that pumps are MADE to make pressure. A pump that can build 300 PSI was designed to pump from 700' deep, which is the same as 300 PSI. 300 PSI is not going to hurt a pump that was made to build 300 PSI. I have some running now with over 500 PSI back pressure. As a matter of another fact, not having enough pressure on the pump is much harder on it than running at max pressure it can build. Running without enough pressure can destroy a pump from upthrust and high amps. There is less concern about the pipe when using smaller lower pressure pumps. But that is really all it is. If you have a pump that can build 500 PSI, you just need to make sure all the pipe before the CSV is rated for more than 500 PSI. Not only will running at max pressure not hurt the pump, it will make it last longer because adding back pressure is how a CSV eliminates cycling, upthrust, and many other problems. Nearly every pump system problem is related to cycling, which is why a Cycle Stop Valve is a disruptive product.

 

[Travelover]

OP here. Well, it is a week on and my water is as clear as it used to be. I don't know for sure if it was sediment in the tank as has been suggested or something to do with the high rainfall in April, but I'm grateful that it is much better.
I am aware that it is critical to minimize pump cycling and I keep a close eye on it as the tank is in the garage where I walk by constantly.
The tank is a bladderless type that uses a Schrader valve and a bleeder valve in the well to constantly replenish the air in the tank. Having never seen one, I freaked out the first time I heard it hissing and releasing air.
The well head is above ground and does not use a pitless adapter being in the PNW and not subject to deep freezes.
Thanks to everyone for pitching in and offering suggestions which I'm sure will be useful in the future.

 

[ponytug]

I'm glad to hear that your water is back to normal.

 

[Egon]

Clear water is always nice!!

Brown water with rain may indicate the casing is not properly sealed In the wellbore.

 

[hube2]

Clear water is always nice!!

Brown water with rain may indicate the casing is not properly sealed In the wellbore.

Well casings do not always go to the bottom of the well. This would actually be a rare thing around here due to bedrock. My well casing never was to the bottom and on top of that I had to have the well drilled even deeper during a drought one year. During long duration or heavy rain events the water table rises and water can enter the well though cracks in the bedrock that are high in the well, this can cause sediment at the bottom to be stirred up. The best thing to do in this case is to add a whole house filtration system to deal with those times when it happens. The best system is to have multiple filters in parallel to minimize the filters impact on pressure and flow rate. It is also a good idea to use reverse return piping so that the flow over each filter is equalized.

 

[oosik]

My water comes from a spring. This was developed in 1892 along with this homestead. It was upgraded in 1982 when we moved onto the property. Every year this water becomes a little "funky". Smells somewhat like dirt. There is always an unseen amount of sediment in the water. It builds up - somewhat - in the toilet tank. I do flush the pressure tank annually and the hot water heater.

I've continuously used this water since 1982. No filters - no chemical treatment.

If the OP's water has visible sediment - install a filter. OR - like I do - just wait. Mine clears in the late summer.

I've had my water tested. Chemically and bacterially - OK.

 

[Egon]

Well casings do not always go to the bottom of the well. This would actually be a rare thing around here due to bedrock. My well casing never was to the bottom and on top of that I had to have the well drilled even deeper during a drought one year. During long duration or heavy rain events the water table rises and water can enter the well though cracks in the bedrock that are high in the well, this can cause sediment at the bottom to be stirred up. The best thing to do in this case is to add a whole house filtration system to deal with those times when it happens. The best system is to have multiple filters in parallel to minimize the filters impact on pressure and flow rate. It is also a good idea to use reverse return piping so that the flow over each filter is equalized.

Matters not how deep the casing goes. If whatever casing there is can leak unwanted water if it’s not sealed properly.