Well Pump Electrical Problem

[N80]

I am asking this question on behalf of my daughter. She has heard me say so many times "I had a problem and went to the "tractor web site" and those guys told me how to fix it." So now she asks me to ask you guys to solve one for her. The problem is, I don't really have all the facts.

But here goes: She and her husband are in a new house way out in the middle of nowhere. They had it built. It is about two years old. It is mostly a nice house but the builder did some sketchy things and left a problem or two unsolved. The biggest problem is that the well pump trips its breaker fairly often. The well guy came out and could not find a problem. An electrician was sent by the builder. He did not speak any English and my daughter never felt like he really got the picture. This seems to happen randomly and without any common denominator except that it happens almost every time it rains.

The well head is in a covered building and stays completely dry. It is probably 20 yards from the house. The house is on a hybrid slab type thing (foundation wall filled and packed with earth. Slab poured on top of that.) Pump works fine most of the time but trips breaker 2-3 times a month and any time there is heavy rain.

So, that's all I know. I've asked. Any ideas much appreciated.

(And yes, my wife and I have recommended that they lean on the builder (who contracted the well digger) and take legal action if necessary. They have not wanted to do that, for obvious reasons, but unless there is an obvious and easy fix that someone (maybe you guys) comes up with that's the other option I know.

 

[LittleBill21]

short of throwing an amp meter on it, most people would be guessing. is the well new? lots of sediment?

 

[mrmikey]

Deep well pump or a jet pump? Is the power cable in a conduit? staying dry? No joints in the cable that could be getting wet? Check the draw of the pump when it starts and check it against specs. Could you run a temporary power supply to the pump and see if that trips during rain?............Mike

 

[LouNY]

Some weres moisture is getting to the for the pump,
as mentioned a temporary power line from the house to the well head building.
That would eliminate the under ground run of wiring.
Are the pump controls, the pressure switch and motor stater in the house
or the well house.
Also after turning the breaker off pull the well cap and check the wiring there
for splices.
Also check the actual water level in the well, both in normal weather and after heavy rains.
Could be an splice only getting wet when a storm raises the level in the well (hope not,
as to me if so ground water is effecting the well and it should not be).

 

[ponytug]

I think that @LouNY makes some great suggestions. I certainly hope that there isn't ground water in the well, nor a splice that is getting flooded, but I have seen stranger things.

I would start by double checking that the pump in the well has the right size breaker on it for the HP/draw, and that the wire is of the appropriate size for the power (amps). While I was at it, I would check for water, or evidence of water, in the main service panel. I recently saw a problem where the contractor failed to have drain holes in conduit elbows and water was coming into a service panel through the conduit. (He also failed to seal the conduit.)

How high is the local water table, and how high is the water in the well, not raining, raining? (Hopefully different numbers!)

When it rains, with the well breaker off, and with the pump disconnected at the pump (there is a switch there, right?), I would check the resistance between the power wires and power wires to ground to check to see if the cable to the pump is nicked. (Shorted) I would then check the resistance on the pump wires (to each other and to a good ground).

If that passes, then as @mrmikey suggests, I would run a temporary power line to the well and see if it solves the problem.

All the best,

Peter

 

[N80]

Thanks guys.

The well is over 400 feet deep. Rain should not affect it at all.

Not sure if the power cable is in conduit. It is buried of course.

I would assume the well guy and the electrician have matched the breaker and the pump specs but who knows these days.

I have a multitester but do not know how to use it other than checking my car batteries. So I'm not the man for the job. I don't think my son-in-law is up on electricity either.

However, I am going to put together a list of all the things you've mentioned and give it to them and see if they can get someone out to do a real diagnostic workup.

I am wondering if there is a splice in the buried cable that is getting wet. We've thought about that before but no one wants to dig it up. I suspect they're going to have to if none of these other things are causing it.

 

[PILOON]

Not familiar with this specific installation but for sure that pump should be alone on a circuit.
Pumps, and all motors, have a peak start power surge and that could just be the cause if some other item is running on the same circuit.
Kind of like the straw that broke the camels back.

 

[N80]

I think it is on its own circuit but I will check and make sure.

 

[ponytug]

The thing with sketchy builders is...anything is possible.

I wouldn't splice a buried wire ever. But that's me. I hate these sorts of shenanigans.

Good luck. By the sound of it, I would get a good electrician out there and worry about sticking the price to the builder later. Given the builder's track record, I wouldn't have a great deal of confidence that the fix to any sketchiness wouldn't also be sketchy.

All the best,

Peter

 

[CADplans]

Thanks guys.

The well is over 400 feet deep. Rain should not affect it at all.

My SIL lives next to me,, and had a new well dug just prior to moving in, that was 2016.
The well guy had to drill 260 feet to hit adequate water,
but,,, the well fills to within 6 feet of the top.

Their neighbor had to dig to almost 400 feet, but, that well is artesian,,
it will run over the top of the well.
(That well required a cap that seals so that the water flow was forced to stop)

Anyways, depth of drilling has little to do with depth of water.

AND, around here the water table rises and falls occasionally, but, not with just a rain storm.

The best bet is to flash a few hundred dollar bills at a good local electrician,,
IMHO, that is what it will take to fix this well issue,,

I would not be able to rest with that problem,,
at a minimum, the pump could be destroyed,,, ($$$$)

at worst, someone could get a nasty shock, or worse!! ($$$$$$)

 

[gary49]

A larger electrical contractor might have a recording ammeter that could be used to see what the starting and running amperages of the pump are. That’s what I’d be looking for after i put a clamp on ammeter on the line just to see what the numbers are. Could be a number of things, best guess is it’s an intermittent short due to a bad splice. If it’s a submersible pump, there should be a splice at the pump and another at the top of the wellhead under the cap. I like to use heat shrink splice kits for submersible pump installations. Could be a splice somewhere besides inside the well casing, might be tricky to find if it’s buried. Of course, if it’s buried, it won’t be long before it fails completely.

 

[fried1765]

Thanks guys.

The well is over 400 feet deep. Rain should not affect it at all.

Not sure if the power cable is in conduit. It is buried of course.

I would assume the well guy and the electrician have matched the breaker and the pump specs but who knows these days.

I have a multitester but do not know how to use it other than checking my car batteries. So I'm not the man for the job. I don't think my son-in-law is up on electricity either.

However, I am going to put together a list of all the things you've mentioned and give it to them and see if they can get someone out to do a real diagnostic workup.

I am wondering if there is a splice in the buried cable that is getting wet. We've thought about that before but no one wants to dig it up. I suspect they're going to have to if none of these other things are causing it.

You will absolutely be able to avoid any exploratory digging, if you first run a temporary electric line to bypass the current buried line, and then have no further breaker trips.

 

[ChuckT]

Ah me. This is a perfect example of a consumer trusting too much, too far, and too often.
Once the house is done and occupied why do people believe the builder is still concerned.
What _should_ have transpired is that with the deed and title of the property the owners gets a complete (and accurate (!)) description of the home and all appliance warranties, owner's manuals, etc, WITH an and accurate wiring diagram and labeling on the breaker panel.
From that maybe they get an idea of why the gizmos aren't working properly. At the very least there's a place to start - in this case checking breaker #nn to see the load when the pump kicks in during a rain.
That being said - I'd be looking for a another electrician, one that can be communicated with an cross off the bulider an his minions as a lost cause.

 

[workinonit]

What area of Carolina are you in George?

 

[Valveman]

Like ponytug says. get an ohm meter and check for lack of resistance in the underground wires. You will need a meg meter or at least an ohm meter that has a RX100K scale. Any little short in the wire will cause the breaker to trip when it gets wet. No sense in digging until you know what the problem is. Check the red, yellow, black wires after removing them from the control box. If it shows a short then cut the wires at the well head and check both ends of the cut wire to find out if the short is down hole or underground. Most pumps are destroyed from cycling on and off too much. But tripping a breaker after a rain does sound like a short underground.

 

[Clint S]

Maybe a bad new pump drawing too much . I have seen the wire running down the well pipe get chafed due to lack of the things used to keep the pump from moving in the case. At my brother's it would hit the metal casing and trip the breaker

 

[woody]

There is some great info here, and just curious is the breaker a GFCI breaker or a normal double pole breaker. Also compare the rated starting amps from the book on the pump with what was actually installed.

 

[CH4Ohio]

As Fried recommended above, you can run a temporary electric wire to it above-ground and see if that solves the problem. If it does, then you KNOW that your buried wire is shorting out.

Since you say it's related to "rain", my guess is that it's shorting out somewhere. Checking amp draw isn't going to help with that. Not to say that the pump couldn't be drawing too much amperage, but you'd expect it to happen EVERY time that it cycled on, not just when it rained.

On a new house, I'd just pull a new continuous wire from the breaker to the well (above-ground if you like for now) and put that possibility behind me. I'd bet money that the existing wire insulation is skinned somewhere or there's a splice that's always going to cause a problem.

 

[Gem99ultra]

As Fried recommended above, you can run a temporary electric wire to it above-ground and see if that solves the problem. If it does, then you KNOW that your buried wire is shorting out.

Since you say it's related to "rain", my guess is that it's shorting out somewhere. Checking amp draw isn't going to help with that. Not to say that the pump couldn't be drawing too much amperage, but you'd expect it to happen EVERY time that it cycled on, not just when it rained.

On a new house, I'd just pull a new continuous wire from the breaker to the well (above-ground if you like for now) and put that possibility behind me. I'd bet money that the existing wire insulation is skinned somewhere or there's a splice that's always going to cause a problem.

I have limited experience with electricity - but... I've had a similar problem in the past, i.e. occasional failure especially after a rainy spell. Buried cable did have a skinned spot which was discovered only after digging up the entire line and inspecting it.
Solution was to replace the entire line very carefully. No splices and well lubricated cable placed inside conduit. Not an easy simple fix, but it did FIX the problem.

 

[Valveman]

Maybe a bad new pump drawing too much . I have seen the wire running down the well pipe get chafed due to lack of the things used to keep the pump from moving in the case. At my brother's it would hit the metal casing and trip the breaker

Chaffing wire is just one more problem caused by the pump[ cycling on and off too much. Torque arrestors and wire standoffs are just another opportunity to get the pump stuck in the well. You don't need those things if you don't let the pump cycle too much.