USDOT number - What it means?

[john_bud]

Hi,

I have been looking over the CDL requirements and think they are understandable. BUT, now a requirement for USDOT number has hit the radar screen.

It appears that if a vehicle, load, fluids, driver + trailer and load actual weight are 10,001 pounds or greater and the use of the vehicle / combination results in gain, said vehicle needs to have a USDOT number on both sides of the truck along with company/person name. States have even put out guidelines that spell out that winning a contest, prize or award constitutes a gain and puts you into the commercial category. (!!?) Hauling sheet-rock on a trailer for your buddy also puts you in that category. Hauling your tractor to a buddies house to move a little dirt - commercial - even if you only get a cold one for your efforts! Hauling your tractor to your farm to mow your fields - commercial.

Seems crazy extreme to me, and I want to be the first to say I may have it all wrong. If anyone has some other examples of what kicks you into the category of needing a USDOT name, please post.

The real question is, for a private person hauling a tractor to a farm (which makes it commercial, apparently) and needing a USDOT number --> What does it really mean? I have not found a clear and understandable document that tells how life changes when you have that magic number on the doors.

Anyone able to de-mystify this?

Thanks!
jb

 

[Rara Avis]

Hi,

I have been looking over the CDL requirements and think they are understandable. BUT, now a requirement for USDOT number has hit the radar screen.

It appears that if a vehicle, load, fluids, driver + trailer and load actual weight are 10,001 pounds or greater and the use of the vehicle / combination results in gain, said vehicle needs to have a USDOT number on both sides of the truck along with company/person name. States have even put out guidelines that spell out that winning a contest, prize or award constitutes a gain and puts you into the commercial category. (!!?) Hauling sheet-rock on a trailer for your buddy also puts you in that category. Hauling your tractor to a buddies house to move a little dirt - commercial - even if you only get a cold one for your efforts! Hauling your tractor to your farm to mow your fields - commercial.

Seems crazy extreme to me, and I want to be the first to say I may have it all wrong. If anyone has some other examples of what kicks you into the category of needing a USDOT name, please post.

The real question is, for a private person hauling a tractor to a farm (which makes it commercial, apparently) and needing a USDOT number --> What does it really mean? I have not found a clear and understandable document that tells how life changes when you have that magic number on the doors.

Anyone able to de-mystify this?

Thanks!
jb

The two major regulations that you are dealing with are 383 and 390...

Regulations - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

Regulations - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

Your exemption is the following:

Farm vehicle driver means a person who drives only a commercial motor vehicle that is

(a) Controlled and operated by a farmer as a private motor carrier of property;

(b) Being used to transport either

(1) Agricultural products, or

(2) Farm machinery, farm supplies, or both, to or from a farm;

(c) Not being used in the operation of a for-hire motor carrier;

(d) Not carrying hazardous materials of a type or quantity that requires the commercial motor vehicle to be placarded in accordance with ｧ177.823 of this subtitle; and

(e) Being used within 150 air miles of the farmer's farm.

Farmer means any person who operates a farm or is directly involved in the cultivation of land, crops, or livestock which

(a) Are owned by that person; or

(b) Are under the direct control of that person.

If you don't meet this exemption, then you want to see of the following applies to you....

ｧ390.3 General applicability.

(f) Exceptions. Unless otherwise specifically provided, the rules in this subchapter do not apply to

(f)(3) The occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise;

If neither of those apply to your particular case...You are in need of the USDOT number and all it entails...

By the way you are correct about two of your ops that would be designated commercial by a DOT agent, but only if you actually admitted that you were compensated for your efforts...NO COMPENSATION...NOT COMMERCIAL

 

[tlbuser]

As long as you stay in the state of Vermont and are hauling non-commercial, 10000 GVWR or less, no problem. A DOT number is not much more than a registration system. If you really think you need one, you gotta have a physical card to go with it.

Now, just for fun, let's say you drive over to NY and p/u a car/truck for your buddy. Technically, you are now a "motor carrier" and would need:
USDOT number (free)
Company name or not for hire placard (couple of dollars)
DOT physical card (~$100.00)
ICC motor carrier stamp ($300.00)
Yes, you would technically be a motor carrier because you do not have title to the vehicle you are towing!

 

[X24]

What if I was carrying an small excavator (6000lbs) to friends houses to do "good deeds" for them free of charge because I am such a nice guy? All together I would be almost 13,000lbs. What about my drivers license? Am I still covered with a regular license or would I need a CDL?

 

[john_bud]

Paul,

In the Great State of Wisconsin, it looks like I NEED (by statute) a USDOT number. Any intra-state commerce in a vehicle or combination vehicle grossing 10,001+ by actual weight.

Ok, assume that's true. When I get the number and paint it, my name and what not on the sides of the truck -->

1)what "extra stuff" am I expected to have, do, be, ect.
2)Do I need a log book, special insurance or?
3)Or is it truely just a registration, get it and forget it?



X24 - I asked your question differently. But the answer would be the same (I think!!) - you need a USDOT number painted on your truck. You are providing a service, hence you are commercial.

I read last night where NY state includes in the statues that "prize money and awards" makes you commercial. Haul your car to the race track -> better have a USDOT! Haul your boat to a Bass Tourniment --> better have a USDOT! Even if you don't win, the fact that they offer prizes means you were attempting to get them for compensation --> better have a USDOT!

The triggers seem to be any gain, even indirect gain. Like you buy an old tractor from ebay, unless you are only going to use it in parades -> you're commercial! Using it for any reason on a "farm" means you are intending to gain by having it, hence by hauling it you will have a gain. If you buy, fix up and sell old cars, tractor ---> even if not profitably or a hobby by IRS definition<--- the act of taking money makes it compensation and hence commercial by DOT interpretation.

At least, that's what my understanding it. Still trying to determine from experts if that's correct! It still seems crazy extreme and almost abusive.

jb

 

[Builder]

If anyone needed a USDOT number, I would think it would be me, but I don't have one. I haul loads of fill, broken concrete, construction debris, etc. and pull my trailer with my equipment around all the time.

Here's the "gray area" I think I could debate since I don't get hired by anyone else to carry these materials or pull a trailer. Only for myself. I think you guys could reasonably argue this point, too.

(c) Not being used in the operation of a for-hire motor carrier;


All that being said, I might register for one anway since I have always erred on the side of "better safe than sorry" and it's pretty much free of excessive cost..

 

[BarryinMN]

Not certain but I think the USDOT # is set up to inspect & audit. More than just commercial crashes.

License records, logs, Insurance, preventative maintenance records, DOT inspections, Medical cards, random drug testing, etc..

They have provisions for fines & penalties for any & all discrepancies.

 

[Reg]

If anyone needed a USDOT number, I would think it would be me, but I don't have one. I haul loads of fill, broken concrete, construction debris, etc. and pull my trailer with my equipment around all the time.

Here's the "gray area" I think I could debate since I don't get hired by anyone else to carry these materials or pull a trailer. Only for myself. I think you guys could reasonably argue this point, too.

(c) Not being used in the operation of a for-hire motor carrier;


All that being said, I might register for one anway since I have always erred on the side of "better safe than sorry" and it's pretty much free of excessive cost..

If your insurance company then decides that your truck is now COMMERCIAL and not PRIVATE, they might drop you or offer you a COMMERCIAL policy - "free of excessive cost..." might not be so )-:

 

[Builder]

If your insurance company then decides that your truck is now COMMERCIAL and not PRIVATE, they might drop you or offer you a COMMERCIAL policy - "free of excessive cost..." might not be so )-:

STATE FARM has me as "commercial".

 

[Skyco]

you need a USDOT number painted on your truck.

Sure it has to be painted? The company I work for has magnetic DOT placards/numbers- they are only put on the trucks when needed......otherwise they stay off.

Added in edit- just found this from FMCSA 390.21 "(d) Construction and durability. The marking may be painted on the CMV or may consist of a removable device, if that device meets the identification and legibility requirements of paragraph (c) of this section, and such marking must be maintained as required by paragraph (c)(4) of this section. "

So they do not have to be painted.

 

[Rara Avis]

Paul,

In the Great State of Wisconsin, it looks like I NEED (by statute) a USDOT number. Any intra-state commerce in a vehicle or combination vehicle grossing 10,001+ by actual weight.

Ok, assume that's true. When I get the number and paint it, my name and what not on the sides of the truck -->

1)what "extra stuff" am I expected to have, do, be, ect.
2)Do I need a log book, special insurance or?
3)Or is it truely just a registration, get it and forget it?



X24 - I asked your question differently. But the answer would be the same (I think!!) - you need a USDOT number painted on your truck. You are providing a service, hence you are commercial.

I read last night where NY state includes in the statues that "prize money and awards" makes you commercial. Haul your car to the race track -> better have a USDOT! Haul your boat to a Bass Tourniment --> better have a USDOT! Even if you don't win, the fact that they offer prizes means you were attempting to get them for compensation --> better have a USDOT!

The triggers seem to be any gain, even indirect gain. Like you buy an old tractor from ebay, unless you are only going to use it in parades -> you're commercial! Using it for any reason on a "farm" means you are intending to gain by having it, hence by hauling it you will have a gain. If you buy, fix up and sell old cars, tractor ---> even if not profitably or a hobby by IRS definition<--- the act of taking money makes it compensation and hence commercial by DOT interpretation.

At least, that's what my understanding it. Still trying to determine from experts if that's correct! It still seems crazy extreme and almost abusive.

jb

FARMERS are exempt as long as you stay in the 150 airmile circle of your farm...You can haul equipment for YOUR farm and be exempt...the trick is to buy farms that link on the 150 mile circle, so now you could travel 300 miles from your initial farm... ....Me, I'm not devious...just meeting the letter of the law...

By the way...tlbuser...I have a CLASS-A CDL with all the bells and whistles excepting Haz-Mat...and that was because I couldn't find a vendor willing to pay the $89(?)Fee for the Fed Investigation of CDLs with HazMat Edorsements... ...I understand these rules and I was providing data to J_B

AN asides...If you are hauling large trailers thru IOWA be prepared to be stopped...Their DOT personnel are on a fund-raising effort and they are stopping Pickups and FL70s pulling 28 foot and larger horse trailers/living quarter units without cause other than to check you for a CDL, logbook, fire extinguisher, etal...for the sole purpose of revenue generation...hasn't affected me, but some of my riding friends(without CDL) have been nailed...they received on the average 11 citations and are currently muddling thru the legal morass of these regs...

 

[john_bud]

FARMERS are exempt as long as you stay in the 150 airmile circle of your farm...You can haul equipment for YOUR farm and be exempt...the trick is to buy farms that link on the 150 mile circle, so now you could travel 300 miles from your initial farm... ....Me, I'm not devious...just meeting the letter of the law...
...

Yeah, FEDERALLY exempt, but Wisconsin says I need the DOT number to register a truck as FARM.

Still, What hoops are there waiting ? What burning knot-holes will I be dragged thru?

I'm serious, what are the ramifications of getting a DOT number? For an exempt farmer.

jb

 

[Rara Avis]

Yeah, FEDERALLY exempt, but Wisconsin says I need the DOT number to register a truck as FARM.

Still, What hoops are there waiting ? What burning knot-holes will I be dragged thru?

I'm serious, what are the ramifications of getting a DOT number? For an exempt farmer.

jb

http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/drivers/forms/mv1.pdf

If you look at PAGE 4...Farm Trucks do not need a USDOT # according to their own form...see the big black diamond that takes you over to the USDOT #??? Farm trucks are above that triangle...UNLESS your truck exceeds 12000 GVW...

 

[john_bud]

There was another form that indicated that any truck used in agriculture had to have a USDOT number prior to being issued a FARM tag.

I broke down and wrote to the contact person. My small and rarely used brain is rebelling at all of this unaccustomed thinking.

 

[Rara Avis]

There was another form that indicated that any truck used in agriculture had to have a USDOT number prior to being issued a FARM tag.

I broke down and wrote to the contact person. My small and rarely used brain is rebelling at all of this unaccustomed thinking.

Well, then I'm out of ideas...

 

[rback33]

Don't go the DOT route. U don't need to and it is WAY more hassle than you think it is. You have to have a mil in liability insurance as well as inspections and log books. As long as u r not "for hire," don't mess with it. Our company had to go through it and it stinks. I am a permanently retired truck driver, so I can manage it all, but it IS a PITA.

 

[john_bud]

I got my reply for the WI DOT contact. He didn't know anything other than 10,001# = USDOT. He said to contact state patrol for Farm plate and possible exemptions as they would be the most up to date on that.

So I did. Well, 2 1/2 hours later and calls to the scales, other inspection officers and several people in the state headquarters an answer was found.

Side note --

The officers at the State patrol were very nice, professional and stuck to the search. Internally, they were conflicted with several differing interpretations. It's funny too, because depending on where you looked, all the interpretations could be correct. Plus the laws are being changed as there is an uproar from the guys between 10,001 and 26,001. So, if you have a Q - Be patient as even the experts may not know and the laws could be in flux.

So, the final answer is that if I get both Farm or "dual purpose Farm" truck plates AND Farm tags on the trailer then I am exempt from the USDOT requirements. Dual purpose Farm tags are stated weight for non-farm and up to 12,000# for farm use. So an 8000# tag is bought, but for farm stuff up to 12,000# (or GVWR of the truck) for no more $. Straight Farm plates are good for up to 38,000# and exempt from CDL and USDOT requirements. They are also about 1/4 the cost of regular plates. Go figure, heavier must be safer....


However, if I was hauling a race car to the drag strip - I would be commercial and would need the USDOT number. They agree that is crazy and they don't go looking to ticket people like that. (Other areas in WI have been!)

So, I will be tagged with the correct FARM plates for truck and trailer VERY shortly.

Side note -

If I didn't declare myself a farm on IRS form 1040, it would be all personal use and would also fall outside of the USDOT requirements. Crazy, and obviously driven by politicians, not the hard working officers I was dealing with. Well hats off to the Officers and a loud Raspberry to the politicians!

jb

 

[SnowRidge]

This all too confusing. Does a combination under 26K that includes a trailer over 10K actually require DOT numbers? I am asking about the federal rules, not state rules.

 

[john_bud]

Snow,

It depends on your state. For INTERSTATE (that is between states) commerce the answer is a resounding YES. If you even smell like a person doing something for any compensation, you are in a high likely state of being pulled over after crossing state lines. On some days, about every truck with trailer that has GCVW over 10,001 or actual weight over is stopped.

In my state (no, not confusion - Wisconsin!) they have made the state regulations include INTRASTATE (in Wisconsin only) commerce. Major PIA. My neighbor was pulled over and given a break - get USDOT, log books, insurance or pay $1300 fine. He has a magnetic slap on with the USDOT now. You need to go to your state DOT web page and wade in it, get frustrated, ask questions of smart people (here), then validate at the State Patrol office.


I checked with the Fed DOT web page - you need to have a USDOT # in Tenn for over 10,001#.
What is a USDOT Number? - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration


Go to this link.
Registration & Assistance: USDOT Number/Operating Authority - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

start the online registration process - it will determine if you have to register. DON'T do it, until you see if there is a loop hole you can crawl into, like dual purpose farm plates. Or you will need, commercial insurance, drug test, log books etc etc etc until you are broke. I calculated that buying 2 used tractors and keeping them on each property I own would have a 4 year pay back by avoiding the expense of USDOT number.

jb

 

[SnowRidge]

I am so glad I opted for a 10K trailer. I almost went bigger. I was really under the impression that you didn't need any of that nonsense as long as you were under 26K combined. Guess I was wrong.