Power steering loosing power

del · Feb 12, 2004

Nailerguy ( My Dad used to tell me to carefully rule
out the obvious and whatever was left is usually the answer,
this has served me well over the past 43 years and while
I could be wrong here, I also could be right)

Good info.

I received the same advice from my Pop, worded a little
differently, something like, "When you rule out all the
things that you think are possible solutions, what is
left is the impossible!"

In this case since most of the owners manuals and dealers
seem to recommend the low viscosity option, shouldn't
the pump work with either fluid just as well?

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JClark · Feb 12, 2004

Considering the way JD is playing "gotcha" on the ballast and tires, I am glad I used the exact oil specified in the manual, right off the dealer's shelf. John Deere Low Viscosity HY-GARD (JDM J20D). I would really be screwed if I tried something else. I will note that the new oil is a different color than the old. The senior mechanic also noticed it but said it is not unusual.

bigpete · Feb 12, 2004

JClark, I understand that the hydraulic oil used out of the factory is red so as to allow for quick ID of any leaks. The recommended JD low-vis off the shelf, in the jug, is more of an amber color.

JClark · Feb 13, 2004

Bigpete,

Thanks, that makes sense. The low-vis oil I put in is amber.

nailerguy · Feb 13, 2004

Hey Del,
you are correct in that both oils are suitable for the pump and neither one will hurt anything in the hydraulic steering system. The low vis oil is much better for a colder climate as the steering will be quick and responsive on startup where as the high vis oil will need a heating cycle before it will offer the same type of response.

What I'm thinking here is that the steering on DCLARK's tractor was on the border line of working or stalling under a load before he changed the oil. If he lost as little as 50 to 100 psi by using the thinner oil, this could translate into several 100 psi /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif of lost steering effort depending on the actual pump pressure and the bore size of the steering cylinder, you know the extra straw that broke the camels back kinda thing in reverse./forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif In fact, if anyone knows those spec's I can calculate exactly how much the loss could be.

One thing that is for sure though, I'm going to keep an eye on this thread until the answer is revealed or DCLARK gets his new tractor /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif if Deere actually lets it go that far.

Nailerguy

del · Feb 13, 2004

I can't believe it has been 2 1/2 months since he took it in.

Pretty soon the dealer will have "owned" it longer then he has!

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JClark · Feb 14, 2004

Nailerguy,

Your theory makes some sense. I'm going to a little research on hydraulic oil.

jrlichina · Feb 16, 2004

The problem is not the type of oil you are using. You have a NEW tractor. If your tractor had a ton of hours on it then it may be a factor. But the problem happened after you did a fluid/filter change. There could be something that got into the system and is blocking the priority valve or is in the steering valve, etc., this is not an uncommon event. JD should fix this problem without any question. Its a NEW tractor! Raise more hell. A tractor that has a dedicated power steering pump should not have steering problems!!!! Heck just look at their web site and that's what they boast about their tractor. Keep on them.

JerryT · Feb 16, 2004

I may have to retract my previous response to this, where I thought the problem had to be hydraulic. I was at the farm this weekend and got out my 4000 Technical Manual. The trouble shooting chart has several "problems" that may relate. The first is "steers hard left,right or both" Since this is a new tractor I am leaving out all the "worn parts" causes; that leaves
1. Toe-in incorrect
2. Tire out of round, size incorrect, or air pressure incorrect
3. Tie rod bent or damaged
4. Steering control unit (SCU) leaking internally
5. Steering cylinder leaking internally
The second problem is "steering locks in hard left or right turns". Causes are; 3. above.

I am somewhat surprised that wheel size is mentioned in the first problem because I can see how and abnormal front to back wheel differential could (in 4wd) cause other problems, but I can imagine how it could affect steering. Some of the other causes listed had to do with lubrication, any chance that the dealer and/or factory failed to lubricate the tractor before delivery? Hope this helps.

DennoAce · Feb 16, 2004

/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

- I am very soon thinking of buying a new 4110gear with 410 loader and weight box for about $13k so this interests me greatly.

- JClark, I am absolutely in awe of putting up with what you have after spending $12+ grand (I assume) on this machine. I cannot imagine being as patient as you have been re: this issue. I cannot comprehend the total BS you have been given by the dealer, etc.

- I am dumbfounded why you have not taken it to another dealer, or why the dealer has not done certain fundemental things to try and figure this out such as swapping parts from another tractor (steering cylinder for example) to test. This would take little time. There are only a few parts that make this system work, and although I do not own one (yet /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) , I have been around. The rotator/servo, the pump, the relief valve, , the lines and the cylinder and moving parts (tie rod,etc). Also an earlier suggestion of trying another machine which must surely be available with similar setup to show them it is not normal. I say again I do not own one yet but I KNOW that turning the wheel with reasonable effort, even with some low tire pressure and a reasonably loaded bucket without ANY ballast on hard ground must be possible! If it is not, than I WILL NOT buy a John Deere. This is BS.

- The viscocity of the oil in the case of this new tractor between two approved oils will not make any noticable difference whatsoever. If it does, something is seriously wrong.

- It seems to me the best bet to try first (although I could be wrong from this distance and there are other things it could be) is that you have air in the system. Personally I would drain and refill the oil again with filter first and then try to get the air out if there is any. Just moving the wheel back and forth under load could but not necissarily do this. There are other ways to do this and you could even try it under power, but this is what I would try:

-- With tractor off, relieve all pressure on system by moving all valves in every direction, steering wheel, etc...
-- Jack up the front axle (not with the loader)
-- Turn the wheels to the stops one way by hand (pushing the tires not using the wheel)
-- Crack the opposite fitting on the steering cylinder (if the cylinder is all the way out the one on the other side) so that oil drips out at a good clip
-- Turn the wheels slowly to the other stop by hand, noting any air coming out with the oil which will no doubt spray some.
-- Tighten the fitting making sure the wheels do not turn back a little by themselves thus drawing air into the cylinder again
-- Loosen the other fitting and do the same thing
-- I would do this procedure 2-3 times in a row.
-- Top off fluids, double check fittings are tight (no need to go crazy with hydraulic fittings), clean up mess, start the tractor and try it out.
-- Not saying this is the answer and I am not a JD tech just saying what I would do, without having put my hands on your rig (though I am dying to see this for myself)

- ps I thought I read something here about this so I just thought to mention that 4wd ratios should always be exactly the same or slightly higher in the front to prevent bind-up and stress on the driveline. Off-road is less of a concern than pavement, but I still would not do it for long (different front-rear ratios ala bigger/smaller tires). Yes some difference is technically OK (a small percentage in difference), but again why stress the components if you dont have to?

- I would be interested while I am here JClark (others?) as to your impression of tractor other than this, and if it a gear or hydro? I am planning on buying one soon and would love to hear feedback! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Hypernix · Feb 16, 2004

DennoAce,

I wasn't sure if you wanted feedback on the JD4110 itself but what the heck I'll post this anyway... Could be helpfull for someone else also.
I bought my 4110 in May 2003. I currently have just under 40 hours on it. I'm very please with it but everything was not perfect during those fisrt 40 hours.
The major problem I had was a hydraulic oil leak near the mid PTO shaft. My JD dealer took it back to the shop and fixed the problem within a week.
The first impression I got when driving the 4110 on my property was that I went way overboad in size! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif Just moving the tractor around with the FEL, I was feeling like I would probably either have to do a lot "stop, back, turn, go" to be able to manage to get around all the trees and obstacle on the property. You need to understand that the previous tractor I used was a garden tractor (Ford LGT145). After driving the tractor for a while, I notice that I was able to make sharper turns that I never could do with the garden tractor. Also power steering is great! I also found that the ride itself is much more pleasant with those big turf tires and the spring seat. I was already used to hydrostatic tranny cause that's what's the Ford had so choosing the tranny for me was a no brainer. As a mowing machine it's just great! I use the 60" MMM
Now as for the tractor power, the 4110 is plenty for my usual tasks. Were I could use more power with the FEL is when I'm removing stumps. We use to grow Christmas trees and we have lots of 3 to 4 inchs stumps. The stumps that are older or normally not a problem. Also this winter I was clearing some snow with the FEL and I noticed that I was running out of lifting power with the compacted snow. It's probably because I'm not used to the FEL yet! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif I need more practice! I'm also using a 54" rear snow blower and have been very impressed with it this winter. I need a cab though! /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Starting the tractor during this COLD winter hasen't been a problem. The JD dealer installed a block heater since my shed is not heated and that is definitely making it a breeze /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
For my garden, the 60" tiller with this tractor size is just tad bit big (but it is sooo much smooter than my old tiller! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif) so to solve this problem I'm going to make a bigger garden this year!
Now this year I'm planning to clear some land that has some small trees and bushes and also has big trees near by that I won't be removing. I'm not sure yet what implement to use for this, but the tiller dosen't seem like a good idea because it would probably just get caught in the big trees roots...
Over all I think it was a near perfect tractor for me. And of course it's green!

OK I guess I should stop boring all of you guys now...

|-|`/p3r|\|!x

nailerguy · Feb 16, 2004

Well we certainly have got a ton of interest in the problem with the steering on JCLARK's tractor and alot of discussion on probable causes, but if you guys go back to page one and read his first post carefully, you will see that the problem goes completely away as long as the tractor is MOVING. The power steering still works, it has just lost SOME power, not ALL of it.

The problem is that the wheels will not turn when the tractor is stationary and there is a load in the bucket. Other than air in the priority valve (which should be gone by now as the tractor has been used a bit) or a failed relief valve, failing pump etc. The oil viscosity is the only other possibility I can see. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

The dealer has supposedly checked the system and found nothing wrong, if this is so, and they are competent, whats left?

For what it's worth, we used to have a Massey Ferguson 31 industrial tractor (2wd) with a loader and power steering and that thing would not turn the front wheels very far unless it was moving, and that was with nothing in the bucket! [shock]

I currently own a 1998 MF4225, MFWD with loader and cab, it does much better. I have to have the bucket pretty loaded before I have the same problem as JCLARK.

Speaking of whom, if I misinterputed your 1st post, please let me know. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

This is getting to be like Smokymtnmans post about his Kubota on the hillside and not enough oil in the case to cover the pickup tube for the hydrostatic transmission. Anybody remember that one? (I can say Kubota on a John Deere Forum can't I?) /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Looking forward to a progress report.
Nailerguy

bigpete · Feb 16, 2004

This is getting to be like Smokymtnmans post about his Kubota on the hillside and not enough oil in the case to cover the pickup tube for the hydrostatic transmission. Anybody remember that one? 

I tracked that one for about two months. Is he still out there wih funnels, planks, come-alongs and shovels? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif I think I do recall he got that tractor out but I don't think two months is an exaggeration. That brand new machine just sittng in the rain and muck...

At least this one is high and dry /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

JClark · Feb 17, 2004

DennoAce,

This dealer is 7 miles away and the other closest dealer is 40 miles away, so that is mainly why I am still with this dealer.

So why hasn't this dealer made a greater effort to figure this out? That, I believe, goes right to JD corporate. It seems my dealer called JD tech right away on this problem and JD blew them off with the "tractor out of spec" bs. Not enough ballast (500# is not enough), don't expect to steer and raise the loader at the same time (no, really), the non-stock rear tires cause this, etc. So the dealer has no confidence that JD will pay the warranty claims for this problem. The dealer owner has mentioned this to me several times. My meeting with the field rep supported his concerns, in that the rep also jacked me around with the same bs.

I picked this tractor based on my past experience with JD products and the specs. When it works, I like this tractor. I did not adequately research the turf tire issue and that bit me in the ****. I don't recommend this tractor with turf tires as they are too small. As features go, I think it is superior to the B2410 I compared it with.

That said, JD's service, or lack thereof, does not engender much confidence with the tractor. If I get this fixed eventually, and something else breaks, will I have to go through this again? If I could blame all this bs on the dealer, I would feel a lot better about owning this tractor. But after meeting with the field rep, I can not put but so much blame on the dealer.

But hey, YMMV, and most others do.

JClark · Feb 17, 2004

In reading all this stuff, don't forget that this problem did not start until about 62 hours, right after the hydraulic oil change. I carried some big loads in cleaning up after that **** Isabel and never had any steering problems.

Trev · Feb 17, 2004

Have you considered simply asking the dealer to test their assertions by sticking on some stock wheels and tires, and putting on what they consider to be the correct rear weight, and testing it then? If you are confident that this won't help the problem, you could even make them an offer to pay for their time if indeed it solves the problem.. and if it doesn't then they will be in a position of having to come up with another solution for you. Seems like that would be a fair way to resolve this, no?

I keep coming back to the fact that the problem emerged right after a fluid change. I don't believe in coincidences, do you?

Best,
Bob

del · Feb 17, 2004

JClark,

Your comment about them almost stopping the conversation after
the "out of specs" comment reminded me of something.

Some people at large companies that deal with the public
are sheep trained to follow rules. Maybe to save everybody
time and money in some circumstances but it is tough to get
them to just SHUT OFF THE COMPANY LINE AND LISTEN!

Example:

With the wonderful telephone deregulation that was passed to
chew on AT&T phone companies, suppliers, everything was deregulated
into the ridiculous mass of nonsense that exists now.

(sorry for the soapbox but I remember 1969, cheap phone service,
excellent FREE phone and line repair FOREVER)

Anyway now if you call with a problem they go into a prelearned
spiel asking how many phones do you have, how many outlets,
have you unplugged all of your phones, have you plugged each
one in one by one blah blah blah as no one is responsible for
the phones or house lines anymore.

After a storm I called repair, they started the company line
I kept trying to stop them. Finally said.

HEY, ONE POLE IS BROKE CLEAN OFF, ANOTHER HAS LITERALLY BEEN
PULLED OUT OF THE GROUND IT AIN'T MY MOTHERLOVING PHONE!!!

Point of this being you have to get beyond the drones to
voice your problem and this is best done with a letter.

In the meantime I wonder what the harm would be to EVERYONE
reading this thread to call a JD dealer and ask if they
ever fixed the steering on the "smaller tractors", that you
were interested in one and heard the power steering doesn't
work and you read on the internet that JD is unable to figure out why..../forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif..../forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

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keeney · Feb 18, 2004

Some suggestions:

0: The time for being nice is over. You can still be polite, but firm. Make an appointment with the owner of the dealership, the service manager, and the their JD rep to get the issue resolved. Don't worry about offending anybody or who is going to take the blame. You are the customer.

1: Stop making the payments if it is financed through the dealer or John Deere. Nothing gets the attention of corporate like a customer running up a bill.

2: Park the tractor at the dealer and tell them you don't want it back until it works. Period.

3: Write your complaints in a letter. Address it to the following: Your salesman, his boss, the service manager, the owner of the dealership, and send individual copies to each of the following John Deere executives (from the web site):

Robert W. Lane, Chairman and CEO
James R. Jenkins, Senior Vp and General Counsel
John J. Jenkins, President World Commercial and Consumer Equipment Division
Robert E. Moulds, VP Engineering
James A. ******, VP Marketing and Product Support
Daniel J. Reilly, Senior VP, Mfg and Prod Dev, Commercial and Consumer Equip.

Also send a copy to the Mayor of your town, the Attorney General of your state, and the Better Business Burough. Put a cc on the letter to _your_ attorney so that they know you are starting to think about getting serious. Keep the background short. Be specific in your demand: You want your tractor fixed, or you want your money back in two weeks, period.

Example:

"I purchased model xyz tractor from dealership xyz on date. They serviced it at nn hours, and after that, the power steering has not worked correctly. The dealership service department has given several excuses why it might not be working correctly, but they have thus far been unwilling and/or unable to return the machine to proper operation.

If xyz dealership and John Deere are unable or unwilling to stand behind their product and provide me with a functional, useful, tractor as claimed in their sales presentations, marketing literature, and their warranty, I would expect a prompt and full refund of the purchase price of $___ .

As I have already spent more than ___ months waiting for this problem to be resolved, I feel it is not unreasonable to demand that I be provided either a working tractor or a full refund within ten business days of the date of this letter."

4: Ask them if there is anything unsatisfatory with the money?

5: Ask them top provide a loaner machine.

6: Take the machine to the dealer and refuse to take the machine back until it is fixed, period. If they tell you to come and get it, test it before you leave. If it is not fixed, leave it there some more.

7: Start talking to a nearby Kubota or NH dealer about trading the machine in... give them plenty of stories to tell their prospects about the lemon machines the JD dealer is trying to pawn off.

8: Talk to an attorney about getting your tractor fixed.

9: The squeeky wheel gets oiled. Suffering in silence will not get your tractor fixed.

10: Call them every day and ask about progress on getting the machine fixed. Ask for the name of the next person up the chain and call them yourself. Keep doing that until you get satisfaction or until the CEO of John Deere tells you "No, we are not going to fix it".

- Rick

bigpete · Feb 18, 2004

Keeney, all good suggestions except for #1. That will serve only to harm the customer. The legal issue that can be raised here is that JD is not living up to its side of the purchase agreement; that is to deliver a fully functioning tractor. If JClark fails to live up to his side of the purchase agreement, he will not further his cause, might lose legal possession of the tractor, and will very likely harm his credit rating.

I agree that if it were my tractor, I would never have allowed it to be returned to me until it is fixed or replaced. I say this over and over to people with problems with their tractors, you've got to put it in writing. State clearly what you expect, i.e. a complete repair or replacement. The State's Attorney General Office can advise JClark on the other possible legal remedies free of charge.

BW, James ****** is the only guy on your list who would end up with this issue, no matter who you wrote.