Power steering loosing power

JClark · Feb 2, 2004

Update:

The regional manager and the dealer came by this morning to look at the tractor. I started it and let it warm up a little and then did the demonstration routine - raise empty bucket of FEL, try to steer. Same as usual - can't turn steering wheel more than a half turn either way. The RM tries it, same thing.

RM: You have a couple problems here, first you don't have enough ballast, second, your rear tires aren't stock.

I have a 60" Frontier box blade with some suitcase weights on the 3pt hitch, total weight about 500#. The rear turfs are not stock, they are 3" taller and and 2" wider than stock.

Me: What difference do the tires make?

RM: They change the angle the tractor is sitting.

At this point the technical term "********" enters the conversation. After going back and forth for awhile we come to the bottom line: If they can't diagnose the problem I am SOL until I change back to stock tires and mount the specified amount of ballast.

The dealer's contribution to this exchange: "I am worried about getting paid for all the work I am doing on this tractor"

The RM is supposed to check with the service manager to make sure all the necessary tests have been performed and get back to me. Assuming he bothers to call at all, I am pretty sure I know what I will hear: "Everything checks out."

So now I wait again.

JASTN70D · Feb 2, 2004

I think your correct on the technical term used. If the machine was under load all the issues ballast tire size and whatever would change also depending on what you were doing I.E. using the FEL or box scraper. What a crock they come up with.! I would be embarrassed to say such things who do they think they are kidding

JDgreen227 · Feb 2, 2004

It appears the RM knows about as much as the SM does which is pretty darn little. And you have to put up with the general incompetence, delays, and buck passing while they try to figure out another way to weasel out of a warranty issue. If I were in your place, I would be mad as hades about this. Wish there were something the rest of us JD owners could do except provide moral support.

del · Feb 2, 2004

Were you able to try out a stock one yet? That should tell
a lot and go a long way towards rebuffing their comments. You
can then throw a stock set of tires on yours to alleviate
that "answer" as well.

I'm assuming the first thing they did was check the tire air
pressure. Normally there is a wide range of allowable settings
I think on the fronts on my 4210 it was 10psi for a loaderless
tractor with no front weights or front implement up to
35psi as a setting for loader use where you plan on actually
using the loader.

Tire pressure can make a big difference in contact patch and
resistance to steering.

And as I mentioned before, your tractor has two pumps one
dedicated to steering one for implements. If they actually
told you the "pump" singular is too small to do both jobs
I wouldn't bother talking to them anymore, and put the
comment about them not even knowing the BASIC information
about your tractor in your letter to JD.

Thought of you yesterday, went out to my K2500HD Chevy Truck
with 35K on it. Started it up, went to back out of the garage and WHEW,
NO Power Steering, NO Power Brakes.

Brakes and Steering were both there if you were able to
do a quick Incredible Hulk imitation.

Instead of a brake vacuum booster the brakes are tied into
the Power Steering System. What brainiac at GM thought of
that? Go GM, for hiring engineers with the common sense
of a bucket of spit.

Take away my steering or my brakes, but not both please...

The week before we had 9000lbs behind it!

Nice of the gal to poop out sitting in the garage!

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gifDE L/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

jackd · Feb 3, 2004

JClark...To try to help you, I called my dealer. (As I said before he is super) and he verified Del's comment that there are two pumps -- a 5.1 GPM for the hydraulics, and a 2.3 GPM for the steering, for a total flow of 7.4 (DUH!) Anyway, I guess by now your dealer has checked the steering flow, pump, etc. I'm wondering if any others here can talk to their dealers to try and get some kind of solution to your dilemma -- this is getting rediculous. I also found an "answer center" number (800-537-8233). BTW, my dealer used the same term for their technology that entered into your conversation with the RM!!!
Wish I could help further...

JackD

jrlichina · Feb 3, 2004

Del.

Regarding your truck. Generally trucks 1 Ton(even some 3/4 Ton) or larger are fitted with hydraulic assisted brakes(GM known as Hydro-Boost) to give you better braking power. The source of the hydraulic power is from the power steering pump. A standard vacuum booster doesn't provide enough power to properly apply the brakes fully. Since you said your's was a K2500HD I'm assuming it has a diesel engine? If so that is also why you have hydro-boost. As you should know diesels do not generate engine vacuum due to a lack of a throttle plate. Diesels have a separate electric driven vacuum pump. So the engineers actually know what they are doing. I hope this helps.

del · Feb 3, 2004

thanks jrlichina,

In this case its a 454 FI gas engine (3/4 ton). This setup may work
better than the vacuum but I hate the idea I can lose both
steering and brakes.

I guess I'll have to build up my muscles, and these tractors
aren't helping, they steer as easy a bicycle!

As I remember from the old pre FI days if you got near the carb on a 454 it would try to suck your arm in!/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gifDE L/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

bigpete · Feb 3, 2004

Hey, JClark.

I have been watching your thread based on the fact I am now a proud owner of a 4110 (with excellent steering response). Sorry for the disappointing meeting. It does seem that they are trying to dismiss the problem.

I have one question and one suggestion.

First, I know you have contacted JD's CCC. Have you let them know that you are not satisfied with the DM's findings?

Second, I would suggest that the only way to verify that the rear wheels have nothing to do with your problem is to have them put stock rear wheels on the unit and test the steering. As far as I can tell, you have not violated your warranty by using larger wheels. However, Troubleshooters (whether B.S.ers, or not) look for the simplest solution. In your case, I think it would be reasonably simple to validate (or debunk) the knee-jerk claim of the DM that your steering problem is caused by ballast and larger rear wheels.

Don't take this the wrong way, but if you put proper ballast and stock wheels back on the tractor and the problem goes away, you might want to think strongly about leaving them on. If the unit a'int big enough, I'd recommend the 4115 or 4310.

I think you have about as much chance of messing up your steering by putting on larger wheels as I have at playing in the NBA by putting lifts in my Converse tennies. Once the steering fails to work with the stock tires and ballast on the back, they will need to look for another (the real) problem.

JClark · Feb 3, 2004

JackD,

Thanks for the help and the phone number. In all my conversations with the dealer they never used the plural of pump. They have said several time that they "tested the pump". So you may be onto something here - they may not know there are two pumps. I do know they have not tested the power steering control valve because their senior mechanic told me they don't have the adapter to do it. I mentioned this to the RM but it did not seem to make much of an impression on him. So far I have not heard anything back from them.

Kyle_in_Tex · Feb 3, 2004

( The rear turfs are not stock, they are 3" taller and and 2" wider than stock.

Me: What difference do the tires make? )

I've been following this thread since the beginning and this is the 1st I've read about the non stock tires.

I may have a theory, please correct me if I'm wrong as I don't own a 4110. The brochure I have says 4WD is standard.

If your tractor is 4WD, and if you have different size tires on back other than spec'd out, something has to give somewhere. Either driveline, traction, or whatever. Could you have stressed the system which could be in some kind of bind causing difficulty in the steering? I would guess the rear drive is much stronger than the front. Otherwise, if you are driving without the 4WD switch turned on, you are taking a big chance that it won't get accidentally turned on by you or someone else.

However, If your tractor is 2WD, please ignore my theory and classify it with the aforementioned terminology.

Just a possibility, trying to help,
Keep us posted