Power steering loosing power

bigpete · Feb 18, 2004

DAP,

It might be worth a shot to contact JD Financing to let them know there is an outstanding complaint case (?) and submit a request for temporary relief from payments and interest accrual until the issue is resolved. That is, if JD actually has an open case on this tractor. I'm still a litle fuzzy on that one. Last I knew, JClark was told that the non-stock tires and ballast were the problem. He subsequently took the tractor back. If that's where we are at, all we have here is a guy with a steering problem trying to figure it out on his own--outside of the warranty process, and without any further request for action on JD's part.

JCLark, sorry if it sounded like I was talkiing about you as if you are not here. But is that where we are? JD's statement that the non-stock tires and wheels are too big and that you need more ballast? What about your case tracking wih he CCC? Can they tell you what is being done? If they have closed the case, then you do need to send a formal complaint or have someone, e.g an attorney, do it for you.

I'm trying not to sound harsh here, and am just curious about the formal status of the complaint. I'm still pulling for some resolution but that won't happen if it's still back at the last diagnosis of the RM. If that's the case, there's no chance of geting relief from payments or interest accrual.

JerryG · Feb 18, 2004

No one especially JClark will like what I have to say, but I am sure that JD thinks the same thing but will not say so. By changing the tires to where you have created a lag condition you have not only increased the wear and stress on your transfer gears but also everything in the drive line. This wear and stress is also being put on the steering. You may not be using the 4 wheel drive except when you need it, but that is usually when the drive train and pump is put under the most stress and wear anyway. I would be willing to bet that the relief has gone out and maybe you pump because of the mismatch. I really don't think that JD will pay for any repairs because they know that the tires and wheels were out of spec. and against recommended application requirements.

DennoAce · Feb 18, 2004

- Now I feel I wasted my time in suggesting my air-bleed procedure, since the thread since then mostly revolved around the dealer/JD reps. I am all for ripping these BS-meisters a new one also but myself would be more interested in having a tractor that worked right first. Maybe JClark you are just too disgusted at this point to mess with it which I do fully understand, but I was hoping I could possibly help....

- Nailerguy, of course the tractor will steer easier when moving, but I say again that a PS system that cannot turn the wheel on hard ground with a reasonably loaded bucket without moving is a piss-poor system indeed and when I test-drive a 4110 (this wknd I hope) I will test this and WILL NOT spend $13k on a machine that is this poorly designed.
Sorry to disagree but viscosity will NOT make a difference in this case to the extreme he is indicating and again, if it does at this stage of this machine's life(the tolerances in the components should still be nice and tight)...there is a larger problem here. Also, the very nature of trapped air in a hyd. system is that it is possible for it to become "trapped" and not "clear itself" out all the time. I have replaced countless hyd. components on numerous machines (most of which were ten times the size of these little tractors) and I can honestly say I have rarely had a trapped air problem...but it does occur.

Anyway gotta go for now! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

bigpete · Feb 18, 2004

Hi, DennoAce.

Give one a test drive and I think you will find that the 4110 is very well designed. First, I have never heard any other 4110/4115 owners have a steereing problem like this. That doesn't mean there have not been others, but there are plenty of 4110 owners hangin' around here, including me. I was steering mine with a single finger and a 53" bucket full of wet snow this morning--yes, sitting still.

Second, JClark put bigger wheels on because he fealt that he needed more ground clearance with the deck on. Me...I take my deck off any time I am using the loader, heading into the brush, moving snow. Heck, my deck is only left on when I'm going to be mowing as my next chore. I think this part of the complaint is purely subjective, but still real for JClark. The 1-2" of clearance gain from adding the bigger tires doesn't make this, or any CUT, truly usable for heavy work with the deck on. Without actually measureing the deck clearance when fully lifted, I'd say it's not a lot different than other CUTS this size.

I will say that the rear linkage assembly on the 4110/4115 for the deck lift hangs lower than I would like to see. Again, easily removed wiha a couple of pins, but still a bit of a design shortcoming that exists in CUTS this size.

I also agree, that I can't see anything here being related to a viscosity issue. All the oils in question are spec oils. More likely this is a blockage or pump/valve failure that has yet to be tested, and it sounds like they will not be tested. I do doubt the oversized tires would have this affect on steering, but until somebody actually puts stock tires back on it to find out, we'll never know, and JD will never listen.

The 4115 is virtually identicall to the 4110 with bigger tires and engine. The hydraulics ARE identical, so JClark has really added 4115 rear tires to a steering system identical to the 4115. The only difference between JClark's renegade /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif settup and the 4115 is the size of the front tires and perhaps a couple inches in wheelbase. Hmmmmm /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

JerryG · Feb 18, 2004

but until somebody actually puts stock tires back on it to find out, we'll never know, and JD will never listen.

They won't listen now, they have already saw what caused the problem and it didn't have anything to do with the way the tractor was set up, designed or under their control.

bigpete · Feb 18, 2004

I will need to look back in the thread for the exact quote, but I believe he JD RM said the larger tires were the cause of the tractor's inability to steer from a standstill under load, not that they caused another problem within the hydraulic system. If I recall, the RM was saying that JClark needed to put stock tires back on and add ballast for the steering to work properly.

There is also some history in this thread that indicates that this tractor has barely seen 4WD which does not correspond to the "lag" theory and strain on the drivetrain. Lag, as I understand it, applies to a condition from mismatched tire sizes operating in 4WD. Larger rear wheels might strain the hydraulic pumps a little more, but remember this is the same hydraulic system as the 4115 with the same sized larger rear tires.

If someone puts stock rear tires on the machine and the problem continues, JD will have to assume its a hydraulic system problem, which they have not yet done. They won't even consider this until the machine is back to stock (...right, JClark?) In fact, they are refusing to explore the hydraulics, the way I read this thing. They might come around to blaming a hydraulic system problem on the non-stock tires later on, but to this point I don't think they have said the pump is bad or that the pressure is low. I think your position assumes that JD has stated that JClark has voided his warranty. If they have, JClark didn't tell us that.

DennoAce · Feb 18, 2004

ps Hyp3....thanks a lot for the feedback..I definately love reading about this machine +- before I go plunk down $13k (well...let JD finance $13k for me interest free! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

JerryG · Feb 18, 2004

It's not that the rear tires are larger, it is that the ratio front to rear is off. That is what caused the stress and more than likely the constant bypassing of the relief valve and the stressing and or over working to the pump while in 4 wheel drive. Putting the stock tires back on and trying it that way still doesn't prove anything that they don't already know or should know. If the mis-match has caused hydraulic system damage, it will still be damaged even with the correct tires back on. You are right, they haven't to our knowledge checked the hydraulic system. But I would be willing to bet that the JD rep. and the dealer has already talked about it and the dealer is trying not to loose his customer or make him mad. At this point, as a dealer it would be hard to know what to tell the customer. You may want to tell him what you know, but on the other hand you want to keep peace with him and also with John Deere.

bigpete · Feb 18, 2004

Jerry,

 If the mis-match has caused hydraulic system damage, it will still be damaged even with the correct tires back on. 

That's exactly correct. It's always back to the requirement of putting stock tires back on, whether it shows that the hydraulics are damaged, or whether it shows that the slight increase in rear height creates a dynamic angle condition from back to front that degrades the effective force of the steering cylinders.

I'm just operating on what has been reported and can't go out so far on the conjecture limb as to say that there has been steering pump or hydraulic system damage becuse of lag from mismatched wheels. JClark stated that he doesn't use this machine in 4WD. Our definition of lag is the same. If the machine is not used in 4WD, lag is a non-issue. As is rear wheel size a non-issue unless the fronts remain small and this creates enough of a "plow" effect to degrade steering.

Remember those gear-heads in high school who jacked up their short-wheel base cars and put little tires on the front? If so, I'm sure you also you remember they didn't steer or corner worth beans, and they went through front tires like grass through a goose.

Wonder what would happen if JClark put bigger (4115) tires on the front? Hmmmm /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

JerryG · Feb 18, 2004

I have been trying to state it as the JD rep. would see it. Unauthorized equipment caused the damage. I am sure that if they try to justify not repairing it, that is what they will say. Bigger tires on the front would be alright as long as the original ratio is maintained. The ratio between the front and rear tire sizes must be maintained to prevent damage, tire wear and to eliminate the possibility of any future warranty claim being bounced.

nailerguy · Feb 18, 2004

Hey Dennoace, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. However if you will reread my earlier post, I stated that any trapped air in the system SHOULD be out now that the tractor has been used some, and that barring trapped air, bad pump, relief valve etc. the only thing that changed was the oil viscosity.

You state that you have worked on hydraulic systems 10 times this size, well so have I and I have had experiences like this and found ways to compensate for them and aleviate the problem.

Maybe when you test drive that new tractor, you should ask the dealer to change the power steering oil to the low viscosity fluid first and if there is no problem, great but if there is???? What then??

Perhaps John Deere knows exactly why the tractor is doing this but does not want to admit it, perhaps it is as they say and they don't have a clue unless the larger tires on the back have actually caused the problem, ( I personally doubt this had any affect on the steering). Back in the late 1970's we use to put the biggest tires we could find on the back and "littles" on the front of our cars, because we thought it looked cool, /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif I don't remember anyone having power steering problems from doing this, in fact, you only had problems when you started installing 12" lift kits and monster mudders on your pickup truck! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

If Jclark had put larger tires on the front of the tractor, then you would have increased steering effort to turn the larger tire with the larger contact patch. He put the larger tires on the back! it should have had no effect on the steering at all, and in fact it did not until he changed the fluid at 62 hours.

Anyway, we all want this problem solved for JclarkAnd we are all entitled to our opinions which are usually based on our experience. I'll tell you what, I'll respect your position if you'll respect mine. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Nailerguy

higgy · Feb 18, 2004

Hey, this argument is based on the driving hydraulics being affected, not the steering hydraulics. It has been determined that the steering has its own pump for articulating the front wheels. The ratio argument of pump and relief valve are for the driving circuit, the two are independent, or so it would seem.

On the larger tractor with the larger stock back tires are the front tires the same size or are they larger as well?

I agree that the tractor should be returned to stock conditions. One thing that I have not figured out is that before the JD RM looked at the tractor the dealer had corrected the aft weight situation to be correct??

I think that the idea of having the dealer set the tractor back up and if it fixes the situation that the owner would pay the time for the test, if not then the dealer can pick up the tab. Or you may just pay a 100.00 or so to have some stock tires put on and test the machine to see if it works correctly. Cheap at half the price.

Dane

del · Feb 18, 2004

Jerry

How would any lag problem affect the steering hydraulic
system? If it was overusing a relief valve wouldn't that
be in the HST and not in the steering system, or does the
HST run off of the steering pump and not the implement pump?

Even if this was so wouldn't they at least give him the time
of saying exactly what the problem is? How long can it take
to check the pressure before and after the steering system?

As to driveline wear, I must be in line for a lot of it as
my L35 right out of the box comes with a mismatched system
to make the front tires turn 10% faster. Supposedly this
helps keep the front from plowing in the mud when turning.
Actually if this had brakes 1/4 as good as the ones on my
old Ford I'd do as I do with that, just hit one wheel brake
in the mud and pivot at Warp 2.

I can't even take this out of 4WD unless I goose the throttle
and back off or lift the fronts off the ground a bit. When
I do they move about 1/6 of a turn or so, then the lever can
be moved with one finger. Kind of nice though, I can probably
go with rears with a slightly larger rolling circumference
and have it more "normal".

thanks for the info

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gifDE L/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

PS, APRIL 00 sure got a lot of cool guys to register on TBN eh? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

bigpete · Feb 18, 2004

Jerry,

I see your position.

You are saying that there is damage and I am saying that we don't know if there is damage.

You are saying that there is damage, and that the stock wheels won't make a difference. I agree with this if there is, in fact, damage, but I am saying that we won't know if there is damage until the stock wheels are back on.

No damage here /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

JerryG · Feb 18, 2004

I guess the only thing that we truly know for sure is that something is not right. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Hypernix · Feb 18, 2004

higgy,

( I agree that the tractor should be returned to stock conditions. One thing that I have not figured out is that before the JD RM looked at the tractor the dealer had corrected the aft weight situation to be correct??
)

I know someone is going to tell me that this a stupid thing to do, but last summer I was moving some dirth (just a couple of loads /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif) with the FEL (410) on my 4110 using no ballast on the wheels or on the 3pt hitch. I did have my MMM on though. I had no problems at steering while moving.
Last september I was moving some fire wood with the FEL again and still not using any ballast. I notice that the steering was not very reponsive only when the tractor wasn't moving and the RPM was low... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Anyway, what I'm trying to say here is why would the dealer think that the ballast makes such a big difference? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Hyp3rnix

rockyridgefarm · Feb 19, 2004

I have completely ignored this thread. But I had to see what's going on.

JClark I am sorry about your problems. You have had some great suggestions about how to handle this. I would write those letters.

I work in a car dealership and this is what I smell. Your dealer is a jerk. He is in over his head trying to solve your problem. He got to the Deere field rep and got him to understand that you are the problem. Going around them may be the only solution. i would be talking to other Deere dealers in the area, maybe there is one who has a clue and wants to help.

Write those letters!!

slefevre · Feb 19, 2004

Hello all,

I have been following this for a while now, and just had to go out and do some trials on my 4110.

I have a 4110 with 410 loader, stock turfs, and a ballast box filled with 1-2 inch stone. (I don't know the weight)

1- Set front tire pressure to 22psi (per 4110 manual), filled the bucket with the biggest load of wet snow I could. (don't know the weight) resulst as follows...

Ballast box on-- steering is difficult when not moving, easy when moving.

Ballast box off-- Steering is very hard when not moving, easy when moving.

2. Increased front tire pressure to 26psi (per 410 loader manual) results as follows...

Ballast box on-- steering is easy all of the time.

Ballast box off-- Steering is moderate when not moving(by moderate I mean I cant steer with 1 finger, but effort is still pretty light, and while moving steering is easy.

I am not trying to present any conclusions, but rather I am presenting my experience with my 4110 with approx 60 hours on it. I am also running the low viscosity HY-Gard oil.

I dont think it will matter, but the tests were done in approx. 35 deg. weather.

Scott

bigpete · Feb 19, 2004

slefevre,

What was the surface? Pavement, turf, etc...?

DennoAce · Feb 19, 2004

/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

- NailerGuy, I certainly resprect your opinion. I am curious why noone has commented on my bleeding procedure, good or bad. I assumed someone would have said it was a waste of time by now! /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

- del, Definately not suggesting you are wrong, but I would find it hard to believe that your front is going 10% faster. Ive heard that many 4wd systems turn the front slightly faster to prevent bind, but no more than a few percent dif. as far as my common sense can tell. I mean it would fry the transfer case in time (yes would take a lot longer in mud/snow/ice conditions where the wheels can slip anyway) unless it has its own differential like a full-time 4wd vehicle does.

- slef.., I for one thank you for taking the time to do this test. I actually am amazed at the difference a few pounds of air make. I really find this hard to figure but I trust your test. I think if we can go by this, maybe 75% of JCs problem is low tire pressure...if I recall his fronts were a little low?

- In general I have ABSOLUTELY no idea what anyone is talking about when discussing how in the world two larger rear tires will affect steering to this degree. The reason the muscle cars would be steering funny is because the unreasonable rear lift (usually several inches straight up...not just a larger tire) would completely change the F/R weight ratios not to mention a host of other engineering properties that are present on a car which is 98% on pavement vs. a tractor with a couple more inches of diameter in the rear. And the alteration would affect cornering, etc not so much sitting still and turning the wheel in the parking lot of the local drive-in. That problem would have more to do with front tires being swapped for much wider ones, etc.
Other than my previously mentioned driveline stress, I can see no POSSIBLE noticable affect on steering this tractor due to slightly larger tires. I mean yeah put 6 foot tall tires in the back and yeah you got somehtin'...but a few inches? Nah. I still cannot believe why this is being even considered....JCs rig obviously has a steering problem, plain and simple. Maybe I need to be taught something....

/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

In any event this is a fun little debate/discussion and I love it. hehe