Power steering loosing power

/ Power steering loosing power #121  
I have a 2000 JD4100 hydro with 410 loader with 150 hours. At about 10 hours, I noticed that when I tried to back up to attach a 3ph attachment the steering would not function at the end of the ranges, making it nearly imposible to position the tractor's 3ph arms. Dealer changed all fluids - problem persisted. Dealer checked pressures - within range but on low side. JD finally asked them to add shims to boost the ps pressure. This solved the problem. However, this summer, when I was mowing a very steep berm laterally, I did notice some steering drift and plan to have it checked out. I think that the 4100 is overall one of the most trouble free models.
I hope this helps. This forum was a big help when I was trying to decide what cut to buy. Good luck!
 
/ Power steering loosing power #122  
Bigpete,

The surface was dry blacktop.

slefevre
 
/ Power steering loosing power #123  
In my mind, I can't see it being anything other than a weak pump. The only thing that troubles me with that thought is it happened right after you changed the fluid. The size of the back tires ain't gonna matter, not with the steering. I think your dealer or his mechanics don't know what they are doing, or they would have figured this out by now. As far as the JD dude, he's probably a company man, the dealer fed him a line of BS or he's fresh out of college or don't know ****.
 
/ Power steering loosing power #124  
Hi again, Dennoace:

You mentioned: <font color="blue"> In general I have ABSOLUTELY no idea what anyone is talking about when discussing how in the world two larger rear tires will affect steering to this degree. The reason the muscle cars would be steering funny is because the unreasonable rear lift (usually several inches straight up...not just a larger tire) would completely change the F/R weight ratios not to mention a host of other engineering properties that are present on a car which is 98% on pavement vs. a tractor with a couple more inches of diameter in the rear. And the alteration would affect cornering, etc not so much sitting still and turning the wheel in the parking lot of the local drive-in. That problem would have more to do with front tires being swapped for much wider ones, etc.
</font>

The reason we are discussing this possibility is because this is what the JD RM has told JClark. I have a hard time grasping the magnitude of a couple of inches thowing off the "caster" of the front steering dynamics, but I also can't rule out the possibillity that this has something to do with it. The rest of us 4110 owners with stock wheels are not having the problem.

You don't need to take my word for it that creating a negative caster condition in the king pin of a steering mechanism will make it more difficult to steer. It's more stable in cornering, but more effort is required. If our tractors are designed with a near-neutral caster, even this small amount of lift from the rear, coupled with a load on the front, could throw the caster into enough of a "negative" angle that the steering effort could be increase exponentially. It's an engineering fact. Perhaps it's just magnified with all the conditions JClark is creating.

Anyway, you can do a Google search for 'Caster Steering" and get a bunch of very technical feedback. Racing engineers write about it all the time. The Hoosier Racing Link will lead you to a basic definition, and the Hunter page will discuss it on a more technical level. It's real...

Hoosier Racing -- Look up 'Caster'

Hunter Undercar
 
/ Power steering loosing power
  • Thread Starter
#125  
slefevre,

Thanks for running the tests on your 4110. According to my 410 manual the ballast box filled with sand is 528#. I'm guessing your ballast box filled with stone is less than that, maybe 400#. A bucket full of wet snow is a tough one. Figure a 55 gallon barrel full of water is about 500#, so maybe big scoop of wet snow is 300#.

Given those weights, pre 60 hours, my 4110 would turn lock to lock on dry pavement with little effort, ballast up. Now, same setup, it won't turn at all past about a half turn of the steering wheel.

Your results with the front tire pressure are interesting. I am beginning to believe, based on your tests and the experience of wh bob1 with his 4110, that the hydraulics run very close to capacity for steering. Just a little difference in wear, setup or manufacturing tolerances can cause steering in loaded conditions to be difficult.

I don't believe the 4WD lag issue is material to the steering problem. The pump running the drive train is entirely separate from the pump running the steering and other hydraulics.

As for the status, today I carried the tractor back to the dealer for testing. The dealer called and said they have finally received the flow test equipment and even offered to come get it. I don't leave the tractor at the dealer for a couple reasons. It is my tractor even though I am still making payments on it to JD Credit. I don't like having it left out in the weather and I don't want one of the adolescents who work their to go hot dogging around on it. Which is why I politely refused their offer to pick it up and instead carried it to them myself. I am funny that way about my toys.

I made it very clear that I am prepared to return the tractor to stock condition for the operability tests but they said not to bother just yet. I think I mentioned upthread that I have a line on some stock 4110 R4s that are the same size as the stock R4s on the 4110.

wh bob1, when you said 'add shims to boost the ps pressure', do you mean shimming the relieve valve?
 
/ Power steering loosing power
  • Thread Starter
#126  
By the way, thanks to all for commenting on this issue. By the time this over with we will all know more about steering JD 4110s than any JD dealer in the world. Hell, maybe we already do.
 
/ Power steering loosing power #127  
The steering is self bleeding, like the hydraulics.
The size of tires no problem or virtually none in two wheel drive. A FWA compact is designed to have the front tires rolling circumference 3-5% more than the rears, this produces a lead situation when in FWA. When in FWA and the rear tire size is increase to a point where the lead % of the front to rear is decrease to a point to where it is neutral or negative, that is when the front tires are in a lag situation. When in a lag situation, the entire drive train (including the steering) is placed under stress. The front end is now pushing instead of pulling (or leading). This is make the tractor or truck or anything with FWA to steer hard.
 
/ Power steering loosing power #128  
Another word on caster. Proper caster promotes stable steering characteristics and aids in self-centering of the steering wheel. Caster is important on higher speed vehicles like cars, trucks, and obviously race cars, but it is NOT an issue as it pertains to CUTs. In general caster comes into play when the vehicle is in motion not in static situations. The only time it would have an effect in a static situation is if the caster angle was changed drastically(greater than +- 20 degrees). At extreme caster angles the force required to turns the wheels will increase. This would require those rear tires to be about 8-10 inches larger in diameter, which is not the case. Remember this tractor steered fine before the fluid change! There is some problem in the steering system(I also believe his front tire pressure is too low). I still think the most likely cause is some contaminent or foriegn object in the system that got in during the fluid/filter change. It only takes a very small particle or metal chip to block a passage or interfere with a relief valve. This dealer clearly has incompetent mechanics.

JerryG, nice simple explaination of lag/lead conditions. Only one thing to add is that this is valid only when the vehicle is in motion, not in static situations.
 
/ Power steering loosing power #129  
Jerry G
Your point is well taken, plus as I mentioned in a previous reply on this subject, the technical manual indicates that different tire sizes could be the problem. However, shouldn't it go away if you take it out of 4wd?
 
/ Power steering loosing power #130  
I think that is the valve that was shimmed. I think that it is front of the operator's seat, somewhere near the drop-rate valve. Also, I have R4's. When I had my problem, I had the loader mounted with nothing in the bucket. The dealer also had to get the instruments to measure the flow/pressure. I remember only one other poster on this board or on Compact Tractor Board in the MidWest who had a similar problem. Out of curiosity, do most larger farm tractors with hydro's have a combined hydro/steering resevoir?
Let me know if I can answer any other questions.
 
/ Power steering loosing power
  • Thread Starter
#131  
wh bob1,

On my way through town this morning I stopped by the dealership to tell them about your experience. The service manager said that seemed to be the same problem with mine. The pressure test results were at the bottom of the acceptable range so they have decided to add shims to the relief valve. He also said the used 4100 they have is doing the same thing.

The shims should arrive next week so I am hoping to have a fully functional tractor by next Friday.

Max front tire pressure for my R3s is 22 psi. I keep about 20 in them so I believe tire pressure is not the issue here. But like I mentioned upthread, if I pumped them up to about 40 psi I am sure steering would be easier.

Thanks for your information. I am a bit more confident now that the dealer is on the right track.
 
/ Power steering loosing power #133  
Jclark, now we are getting somewhere! With the pressure at the bottom of the acceptable range, the steering effort will suffer when you load the bucket. I am sure the lower pressure is due to the thinner fluid and that the shims in the relief valve will solve your problem.

Please guys do not misunderstand what I have been saying all along, the thinner fluid will work just fine in your tractor but the pressure will have to be adjusted to make up for the pumping losses and the fact that the thinner oil will go through the system relief and internal orifices much easier. Less backpressure = less pressure and evidently, in the steering system on a tractor it does'nt take much pressure loss to make a big difference.

Jclark, on a different note, you have been steadfast and loyal to your John Deere tractor even through the tough times the dealer and the RM gave you. For that (for what it is worth), you have earned my respect. Loyal people are getting to few these days (although there seem to be quite a few on this website), Happy tractoring.

Nailerguy
 
/ Power steering loosing power #134  
jrlichina.

I gotta’ beg to differ….and from my conversations with a PhD' retired professor of engineering, and JD engineer in the ‘50s…my Father.

First, I'm not supporting the theory that the change in the tractors caster angle would be the sole cause of the problem, (nor would my Pop’), but there is merit to the principle. That is, a slight change to a reasonably neutral caster angle in a CUT under a heavy load might have a dramatic effect on steering effort. Lots of other factors here, most have been covered earlier, i.e. ballast, tire pressure, surface conditions, hydraulic oil pressure, etc. Pressure now being increased with shims... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Second, to your statements....

<font color="blue"> Caster is important on higher speed vehicles like cars, trucks, and obviously race cars, but it is NOT an issue as it pertains to CUTs. </font>

Our slow-moving equipment is designed to carry a wide-ranging amount of weight in a variety of conditions, including slope, tilt, varying surface conditions, etc. Engineers spend an incredible amount of time testing and tweaking all of the steering dynamics in CUTS, not the least of which is caster angle. everything is BALANCED for safety, straight-line stability, and steering effort. Because of the fact that the tractor may creeping, or moving at over 10 MPH, and the fact that the front axle load can vary as much as 400% in a matter of moments, caster is more critical than ever and more sensitive than ever. Slight changes in a reasonably neutral caster condition, coupled with a dramatically increased load and even a slightly a modified downward thrust angle from the larger tires rear tire and inadequate ballast can make the steering effort increase exponentially

<font color="blue"> In general caster comes into play when the vehicle is in motion not in static situations. </font>

This is simply incorrect. Caster is in play all steering conditions, dynamic and static. Changes in caster angle primarily affect two things: stability in motion and required steering effort from a static position. Camber is affected secondarily by changes in caster.

<font color="blue"> The only time it would have an effect in a static situation is if the caster angle was changed drastically (greater than +- 20 degrees). </font>

An exaggerated 20 degree change in the caster angle, under load, and under-ballasted on a John Deere 4110 would render a very precarious stability condition in motion, and definately a completely inoperable steering condition from a static position. Whereas a 3 to 5 degree change might realistically have a dramatic effect on steering effort, ESPECIALLY from a static condition with inadequate ballast.

Most people know of caster, camber, and toe from automobile alignment training and discussions, but they are basic steering dynamic principles for racecars, bicycles, grocery carts, mining equipment, and little red wagons. If you consider the wide spectrum of steering applications from creeping mining equipment to an open-wheeled car going over 200 MPH, you will find the sensitivity level is exponentially greater at the ends of the spectrum. That is, a minor tweak to caster in a high speed car will have dramatic effects on stability, and a minor tweak to caster in a slow, heavily loaded vehicle will also have a dramatic effect, but in required steering effort.

I’ve even bored myself here, so I’ll just end by reminding everyone that JClark has (had?)to force his steering in static conditions, not while he’s moving. This symptom leads trained engineers to begin diagnosis by asking about these specific steering dynamics. I’m sure the RM was just parroting what an engineer told him, but that doesn’t make the principle absurd. It just isn’t the first blush answer anyone wanted to hear. The added pressure from the shims should overcome any possible imbalance from the changes to the steering and thrust dynamics. That's what we're all hoping for here, afterall. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
/ Power steering loosing power #135  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Most people know of caster, camber, and toe from automobile alignment training and discussions, but they are basic steering dynamic principles for racecars, bicycles, grocery carts, mining equipment, and little red wagons.)</font>

Toe on a bicycle? You lost me on this one! /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Bob
 
/ Power steering loosing power #136  
Got me...scratch toe for two-wheeled vehicles. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

However, a bike's front wheel can be out of "toe." It's just toe right, or toe left, that's all.... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
/ Power steering loosing power #137  
bigpete

I believe I pretty must prefaced my statement with "in general" and my extreme example of excessive caster was just that, meant to be extreme. I agree with many of your statements. My main point was that the rear tires that are a couple inches larger in diameter would cause such a minor change in caster that it was not enough to cause the steering problem he is having. If you look at my earlier posts you'll see what I thought the problem was and how to actually diagnose the problem. I just didn't want to get too technical in my explanation. And believe it or not I'm an engineer too and I've designed and built several front suspensions for 4WD trucks and 2WD tractors. Thanks for your comments.
 
/ Power steering loosing power #138  
<font color="blue"> However, shouldn't it go away if you take it out of 4wd? </font>
It would more than likely if and only if the relief and or the pump has not been damaged.
About the statement on caster, As far as caster goes it should have very little if any to do with the lack of steering response that is taking place. My points about stress would come in to play only when using FWA. There would be no pump or drive line stress in 2wd from the larger rear tires . What I have stated is only the way that I would think that JD would approach the problem. Any time there is a deviation from what is recommended or there is a modification to a piece of equipment, it is deemed as a situation where the warranty is void. I will say that I hope that Deere helps and tries to correct the problem whether it is because of the ratio imbalance or not.
 
/ Power steering loosing power #139  
jrlichina and JerryG,

Yeah, the caster angle isn't the only problem. In fact it might not have anything to do with the problem at all. But a vehicle with a thoughtfully balanced suspension, such as a modern CUT, can be thrown out of balance and exhibit what one might call "functioning problems" in steering by even a small modification. When you look at the key changes to the machine from delivery day to reported problem, there are only two things that really changed--hydraulic fluid and filter, and bigger rear tires. Send those two factors to an engineer and he or she will begin to rule out the simple stuff. Since surface conditions, ballast, tire pressure, and modified steering dynamics from bigger rear tires are the obvious contributors to a possible steering problem, the engineer tells the RM to check working ballast, tire pressure, and get stock wheels back on the tractor. I think one of the bigger disappointments is the time it took to get pressure readings on the pump. I think it would be reasonable to expect a more responsive trouble-shooting process than JClark has seen.

Anyway, I often find myself jumping in on discussions or debates where people over-simplify or simply rule stuff out as ludicrous or absurd. We all really have limited information here and a good number of contributors in this thread have summarily dismissed adding bigger rear tires to the tractor as having no possible connection to increased steering effort. If the bigger tires do have a contributory effect on the increased steering effort, which I believe they might at some level, then it is most likely through a change in caster angle and a couple of other relational steering factors. You are absolutely correct that steering dynamics are very complicated, technical, and sometimes quirky. That's why we all might want to consider that the engineers that design tractors know a little about what they have told the RM to tell the customer.

Bottom line, if the increased pressure pushes through the increased effort, then JClark might have a tractor he is happy with. I'm all for biting the bullet in these situations and getting the tractor you really need. As long as the money works out.
 
/ Power steering loosing power #140  
<font color="blue"> I think one of the bigger disappointments is the time it took to get pressure readings on the pump. I think it would be reasonable to expect a more responsive trouble-shooting process than JClark has seen. </font>
I am with you here. After checking the tire inflation pressure, the next thing should have been the pump pressure.

As far as front end geometry, If the larger tires ( <font color="red">IN 2wd </font> ) effected it very much then 10s of thousands of farmers over the last 60 years woulld have had problems also. Every sence rubber tires were placed on tractors, larger rear tires have been placed on the rear of <font color="red"> 2WD</font> tractors. IN <font color="red">2WD</font> the larger rear tiires cause NO problem or very very minor ones to say the most . In <font color="red">4WD</font> it will mess things up.
 

Marketplace Items

Single Cylinder Hydraulic Grapple Bucket Skid Steer Attachment (A61567)
Single Cylinder...
2018 MACK CHU613 (INOPERABLE) (A58214)
2018 MACK CHU613...
New/Unused IRMC Massage Chair (A61166)
New/Unused IRMC...
New/Unused Landhonor Quick Attach Power Rake (A61166)
New/Unused...
2018 22ft. Tycorp Vector Belt VB-16H (A60352)
2018 22ft. Tycorp...
2000 GMC W3500 Cab and Chassis Truck (A59230)
2000 GMC W3500 Cab...
 
Top