Possible DEF shortages

[Steppenwolfe]

Lowe’s had a bin 10 jugs wide x three jugs high x three jugs deep. That’s 90 jugs. There was more stock overhead.

Yeah... I already mentioned that; too expensive.

 

[finn1]

Yeah... I already mentioned that; too expensive.

So there’s no shortage, correct?

 

[Steppenwolfe]

So there’s no shortage, correct?

Correct... Only wally world is out of the cheap stuff.

 

[Jstpssng]

Order it online, wait for the text it's ready, and when you get there some schmoe brings it out to you... How do you beat that???

Order it online, it's delivered to my door within a week. If I drive that far I want to look at what I'm buying.

 

[Hay Dude]

So there’s no shortage, correct?

Correct... Only wally world is out of the cheap stuff.

Yep, no shortage whatsoever.

https://www.sclubricants.com/whats-driving-urea-supply-shortages-and-what-experts-expect-with-def-pricing/

https://www.rvtravel.com/falling-def-ears-exhaust-fluid-shortage-coming/

DEF shortage puts more nails in diesel car, SUV coffin

The diesel exhaust fluid (DEF) shortage is accelerating a decline in the popularity of passenger cars and SUVs running on diesel.

koreajoongangdaily.joins.com

DEF fluid shortage…Shortage of Urea will cause shortage of DEF used in ALL modern diesel engines. – Investment Watch

Theres 4 links to prove it, or you can go with what steppy says.
I know what I see and I know who I don’t believe.

 

[Hall00]

Um, no. That would cause the failure of the engine.

No it wouldn't, SCR systems only deal with exhaust.

It can be bypassed/removed via ECU programming.

 

[rScotty]

We go to Denver every couple of months to buy supplies.

So far there's been no shortage of DEF in the Denver Area. In fact, no shortages of any of the things that we see on the internet or hear on the "news" services from "experts". We just don't see it here. There occasional backups - like lumber for twice the price at HD, but it's already back to normal price. Buying monthly, we don't see any difference now from years ago. Some things are always short and overpriced. But so far we haven't seen any real shortages of lumber, building materials, tractors - new and used, toilet paper, machinery parts, oil, groceries, fuel, or DEF.

But that's just here in the middle of the country where everything comes in by truck. It may be different other places...or it may just be that stories about shortages are in style right now.

 

[joecoin]

I refuse to use them and have at least 3 issues
1) no employee needed
2) there are certain segments of our society that rely on these types of jobs. 3 come to mind; There are seniors that can use a little extra in their check, there are the never went to college or trade school and the disabled.
3) when they dont work, what happens?

Being a cashier may not be a living wage, but it can be part of a lifeline. I think retail corporations use “no good help” as an excuse to reduce their bottom line rather than shifting their models to accommodate. But why should they when Joe/Suzy Q Public continues to patronize them?

So you don't pump your own fuel at the filling station.

 

[Hay Dude]

No it wouldn't, SCR systems only deal with exhaust.

It can be bypassed/removed via ECU programming.

Sure it would.
If you put a foreign substance in the tank, the DEF system would detect it and fail. This would cause the engine to fail because the PCM would to put the engine into limp mode.

Yes, it can be bypassed, but that’s not what was suggested. He suggested peeing in the tank would be a substitute for DEF. It is not.

If the SCR system was removed, nothing is needed in the tank.

 

[Hall00]

The PCM/ECU going into limp mode is not an engine failure. That's a subsystem causing a fault and a subsequent derating of power. The engine has not failed.

 

[Hay Dude]

The PCM/ECU going into limp mode is not an engine failure. That's a subsystem causing a fault and a subsequent derating of power. The engine has not failed.

For this discussion, I called “fail“ and “limp mode” the same thing.
I call a ruined engine or transmission a “blown“ engine, not a “failed” engine.

Doesnt change the intent to say that urinating in a DEF tank would cause the engine to fail, derate, limp, etc.

If you’ve ever towed anything substantial and the engine went into limp or failsafe mode, its scary. Ive lost DPF sensors while towing and I had seconds to get off the road. It is a very unpleasant experience and could cause an accident.

Bottom line is, DONT pee in your DEF tank. It will cause the DEF system to fail and derate your engine and an unknown host of repairs.

 

[Hall00]

For this discussion, I called “fail“ and “limp mode” the same thing.
I call a ruined engine or transmission a “blown“ engine, not a “failed” engine.

Doesnt change the intent to say that urinating in a DEF tank would cause the engine to fail, derate, limp, etc.

If you’ve ever towed anything substantial and the engine went into limp or failsafe mode, its scary. Ive lost DPF sensors while towing and I had seconds to get off the road. It is a very unpleasant experience and could cause an accident.

Bottom line is, DONT pee in your DEF tank. It will cause the DEF system to fail and derate your engine and an unknown host of repairs.

It will not cause all of them to fail, just newer ones.

Older SCR treatment packages had simpler provisions for emissions compliance.

Level in DEF tank...check
Dosage pump functioning...check
That is all the older systems cared about. You could fill the tank with urine and it would function fine. Deionized water is a popular substitute.

A newer system measures the concentration of the fluid, therefore urine would ultimately cause a limp mode condition.

 

[3930dave]

Level in DEF tank...check

JUST that one sensor ^, is a good example of why I detest complex systems.

Let's pretend that there is only one manufacturer of DEF Level Sensors on the Planet.

Let's also pretend that same manufacturer built a whole pile of bad sensors, leading to short life-spans.

Then we'll pretend some global pandemic comes along, and same sensor manufacturer shuts down completely for an extended period of time.

Then we'll pretend, that as Thank You to Customers, when they re-start their production line (to replace the crap parts they previously built), the cost of that same sensor triples.

Leading to me "pretending" to joke about pulling modern equipment around with horses....

Can't understand why my "imagination" wandered that way.....

I can also imagine... This is a Good Way To "Sell" EV's....

Rgds, D.

 

[finn1]

So there’s no shortage, correct?

Both CHina and Russia are restricting fertilizer exports. The US is a net exporter of urea, though. Urea for DEF production is a tiny fraction of that used for agricultural purposes.

Worldwide prices have certainly gone up. Much US production comes from natural gas, which has risen this year.

The links you provide seem to be from Australia and Korea, both countries that would rely heavily on Chinese exports for their fertilizer supplies.

Our production base is primarily centered on the gulf coast. There were some shutdowns due to the hurricanes this year, but that’s sort of normal, or at least not unexpected over the years.

 

[finn1]

It will not cause all of them to fail, just newer ones.

Older SCR treatment packages had simpler provisions for emissions compliance.

Level in DEF tank...check
Dosage pump functioning...check
That is all the older systems cared about. You could fill the tank with urine and it would function fine. Deionized water is a popular substitute.

A newer system measures the concentration of the fluid, therefore urine would ultimately cause a limp mode condition.

Name an engine make, model, and application that will function when deionized water is substituted for DEF.

 

[IndyJay]

So you don't pump your own fuel at the filling station.

I noticed you said "filling" station instead of "service" station.
I wonder where all the service stations went?

 

[ovrszd]

I noticed you said "filling" station instead of "service" station.
I wonder where all the service stations went?

Friend of mine owned/operated a "quick stop" type station for 30 years. He repeatedly said he only sold gasoline to get the customers to stop in. He fought pay at the pump, was the last station in our County to install it. Wanted the customer to come inside the store. He also repeatedly said the market up on gasoline is so small that during rising prices it was common to sell a tanker load for less than it cost to buy a replacement load.

This is what killed "Service Stations". No profit margin to pay for the labor involved.

 

[jyoutz]

The US lacks the labor supply, regulatory framework and the basic desire for self sufficiency to regain its position of manufacturing superiority.
Complaining about empty shelves at Walmart is part of the proof. Every single one of us shares in the responsibility.
I have said for 30 years this country is on a path to ruin and that is more evident every day.

Most of this was caused by corporate bean counters. They were responding to the stock market’s focus on double digit returns. Back in the 70s before large scale offshoring of manufacturing began, stock holders typically were satisfied with single digit returns. Of course the general demise of corporate pensions increased the need for high market returns. Seems like all of these factors have contributed to the death spiral that we are experiencing now.

 

[IndyJay]

Friend of mine owned/operated a "quick stop" type station for 30 years. He repeatedly said he only sold gasoline to get the customers to stop in. He fought pay at the pump, was the last station in our County to install it. Wanted the customer to come inside the store. He also repeatedly said the market up on gasoline is so small that during rising prices it was common to sell a tanker load for less than it cost to buy a replacement load.

This is what killed "Service Stations". No profit margin to pay for the labor involved.

My Uncle opened a Pure Firebird service station coming out of WWII, eventually changing to Union 76. He had a couple of employees that pumped gas, checked oil and cleaned windshields, and a mechanic that did brakes and other mechanical work. He also had a couple of wreckers that kept him busy. Thriving business into the 70's.

In the mid to late 70's the convenience store/filling stations started appearing, one right across the street from him. Within a year he saw his competitor across the street selling gas at the pump cheaper than he was paying for it under the Union76 franchise. It finally came to a head when he looked across the street and saw a Union76 tanker unloading gas at the "pipeline". He called his rep and told them to come get their signs.

He continued the towing service right up till his death ~15 years ago. I have a lot of childhood memories from time spent there, "helping", sitting drinking a red pop while scraping off a head gasket or some other "kid" task.

 

[ovrszd]

My Uncle opened a Pure Firebird service station coming out of WWII, eventually changing to Union 76. He had a couple of employees that pumped gas, checked oil and cleaned windshields, and a mechanic that did brakes and other mechanical work. He also had a couple of wreckers that kept him busy. Thriving business into the 70's.

In the mid to late 70's the convenience store/filling stations started appearing, one right across the street from him. Within a year he saw his competitor across the street selling gas at the pump cheaper than he was paying for it under the Union76 franchise. It finally came to a head when he looked across the street and saw a Union76 tanker unloading gas at the "pipeline". He called his rep and told them to come get their signs.

He continued the towing service right up till his death ~15 years ago. I have a lot of childhood memories from time spent there, "helping", sitting drinking a red pop while scraping off a head gasket or some other "kid" task.

Added character to your personality that you couldn't have gotten anywhere else!!!