Oil & Fuel Off Road vs Highway Diesel

Ken Cunningham · Mar 15, 2008

Hi all,
Went to the gas station today for my first load of desiel. I thought the only difference between the two was the taxes. I noticed the pump said high sulphur for the off road desiel, so I went ahead and got the highway type. Does the sulfur content do any thing, other than maybe the way it smells? The price difference was 30 something cents a gallon. Which one do you use in yours?

Ductape · Mar 15, 2008

Either works in your tractor. You can't run the high sulfer stuff in the new on road dieselvehicles with the particulate filters in the exhaust.

ScottK · Mar 15, 2008

In Washington state they appear to be the same except they add pink dye to the off-road and don't charge fuel tax (saves 0.70 per gallon here). How much difference in price out there?

exiled · Mar 16, 2008

Ken, all that they are making now is ultr-low.

Sulfer plays a big part in diesel. It is the fuel lube. By taking it out the manufactures has to put something back in. The goverment's standard is very low to several engine manufactures. If your tractor is older than an 07 model than the high sulfer is the way to go. The only difference between off road and highway is color. Off road is dyed cause of tax reasons. Here in Al a think ours is around 63 cents a gal.

Skyco · Mar 16, 2008

Sulpher is not a lube in diesel. The process of removing the sulpher removes the desireable lubricant properties as well. IOW you can't add sulphur back to diesel to improve its lube properties.

exiled · Mar 16, 2008

Skyco said:
Sulpher is not a lube in diesel. The process of removing the sulpher removes the desireable lubricant properties as well. IOW you can't add sulphur back to diesel to improve its lube properties.

I'm not going to argue what sulfur is or aint. Back to the point of what I was saying if you have an older than 07 model your engine will do better with the low -regular sulfur levels than the ultra-low. Ultra-low by it's self cant pass the scar test. The goverment is'nt putting strect enough standards on the manufactors on how much lube to put back once they removed the lubricant from the fuel. Low sulfur is suppose to damage 07 and newer engines. I know for a fact an 07 Ford 6.0L built in mid 07 will run on low. A friend of mine Has an 07 F350 and he buys 7000 gals of fuel at a time. Of course its delivered to his farm in 3500 gal at a time. He bought his truck and had alot of low left. He did'nt even know about the risk untell much later. He is still running low. I have'nt see the fuel truck at his tanks refilling.
I dont know why low is suppose to hurt 07 and later. Maybe Ford Did'nt switch everything over untell ultra finally got everywhere. I dont know. Everybody else's Diesels might not be so lucky.

sd624 · Mar 16, 2008

Running low sulfur or regular diesel in a 07 and later Ford 6.4l wont hurt the engine but what it will do is plug the DPF. The DPF is a particulate trap that periodically has to have the accumulated soot burned off. To do this fuel is injected on the exhaust stroke which pumps raw fuel into the exhaust diesel oxidation catalyst. This raises the front of the DPF to around 1100F which burns the soot away. When the truck is in regen you get about 6 to 9 MPG. The higher the sulfur the more regens which cost you lots of MPG's and $$$$.

This is coming soon to a tractor near you. John Deere is experimenting right now with the same DPF setup that Ford uses.

John Deere allows the use of 15 ppm Ultra-Low-Sulfur diesel fuel (more commonly known as ULSD or S15 Diesel Fuels) in all Engine Models as long as the diesel fuel used meets the latest ASTM D-975 diesel fuel lubricity specification which allows up to a 520-micron maximum wear scar diameter measured on a High Frequency Reciprocating Test Rig (HFRR). This new ASTM lubricity standard was introduced on 01 January 2005, and applies to both on-road and off-road diesel fuels.

Additives for lubricity should not be necessary. Like Low Sulfur Diesel fuel, ULSD fuel requires good lubricity and corrosion inhibitors to prevent unacceptable engine wear. Additives to increase lubricity and to inhibit corrosion will be added to ULSD fuel prior to its retail sale. With these additives, ULSD fuel is expected to perform as well as Low Sulfur Diesel fuel.

Generally speaking, the same oil refinery process used to reduce Sulfur content also removes Oxygen, Nitrogen, aromatic compounds, and other key characteristics in diesel fuel, which are considered to be natural fuel lubricity agents. Sulfur content by itself has little to do with fuel lubricity. Many oil refineries are now adding back in other fuel lubricity agents to prevent the former diesel fuel lubricity and rubber seal deterioration fiasco experienced back in 1993 and 1994. Reducing the sulfur content of diesel fuel from 500 ppm to 15 ppm will have no significant effect on engine fuel economy, fuel density, fuel heating value, or fuel lubricity.

Sorry for the long post!

SD

dirtworksequip · Mar 16, 2008

OH NO.................here we go again! Come December 1st, 2014 all we will have is Ultra-low sulfur.

Sincerely, Dirt

Ken Cunningham · Mar 16, 2008

So off road is better for the engine?

Heywood Jannockitov · Mar 16, 2008

I would think that the lower the sulfur level in the fuel, the better. During the combustion process sulfur dioxide is produced. Mix sulfur dioxide with water, in the form of condensation and what do you get? Sulfuric acid, which corrodes metal. Why adhering to specified oil change intervals in diesels is crucial.

Cidertom · Mar 16, 2008

Sulpher vs not I don't know, but I noticed something strange here this last week.

On road diesel -tax is "cheaper" than off road diesel. H'mmmm

So why is ultra low cheaper to make?

ray66v · Mar 16, 2008

Heywood Jannockitov said:
I would think that the lower the sulfur level in the fuel, the better. During the combustion process sulfur dioxide is produced. Mix sulfur dioxide with water, in the form of condensation and what do you get? Sulfuric acid, which corrodes metal. Why adhering to specified oil change intervals in diesels is crucial.

This is what I am being told by the Engineers that I know.

RobJ · Mar 16, 2008

dirtworksequip said:
OH NO.................here we go again! Come December 1st, 2014 all we will have is Ultra-low sulfur.

Sincerely, Dirt

For most it's 2012. We sell mostly to the marine and some trucking folks so I'm not sure if we can go until 2014. We do 80k bpd now...not all diesel. We are looking at putting in a diesel hydro desulphurisation unit. To run this you need hydrogen, we're looking at a reformer for that. Can you say millions and millions??

LBrown59 · Mar 17, 2008

We have 1 fuel here.
It has several aliases such as.
on road
off road
home heating oil
fuel oil
== L B ==

exiled · Mar 18, 2008

sd624 said:
John Deere allows the use of 15 ppm Ultra-Low-Sulfur diesel fuel (more commonly known as ULSD or S15 Diesel Fuels) in all Engine Models as long as the diesel fuel used meets the latest ASTM D-975 diesel fuel lubricity specification which allows up to a 520-micron maximum wear scar diameter measured on a High Frequency Reciprocating Test Rig (HFRR). This new ASTM lubricity standard was introduced on 01 January 2005, and applies to both on-road and off-road diesel fuels.

Additives for lubricity should not be necessary. Like Low Sulfur Diesel fuel, ULSD fuel requires good lubricity and corrosion inhibitors to prevent unacceptable engine wear. Additives to increase lubricity and to inhibit corrosion will be added to ULSD fuel prior to its retail sale. With these additives, ULSD fuel is expected to perform as well as Low Sulfur Diesel fuel.

Generally speaking, the same oil refinery process used to reduce Sulfur content also removes Oxygen, Nitrogen, aromatic compounds, and other key characteristics in diesel fuel, which are considered to be natural fuel lubricity agents. Sulfur content by itself has little to do with fuel lubricity. Many oil refineries are now adding back in other fuel lubricity agents to prevent the former diesel fuel lubricity and rubber seal deterioration fiasco experienced back in 1993 and 1994. Reducing the sulfur content of diesel fuel from 500 ppm to 15 ppm will have no significant effect on engine fuel economy, fuel density, fuel heating value, or fuel lubricity.

Sorry for the long post!

SD

4 out of the 5 test I've read should that most ultra's by them selves{without addivities} does not pass the scar test. The ones that did pass just made the lowest possible to pass the astmd-975. The fuel companies are just putting in enough additives to satify the goverment. However The enigine builder's something other{I cant think of the name right now to save my life} specs are higher than what the goverment says.

I dont think ultra makes any differnce in MPG at least I have'nt seen any. Sulfer is a lube. When liquid sulfer heats its viscity rises. I cant remember the temps its been awhile since I was in school. The liquid sulfer helps in the injection system. Sulfer dioxide accurs after being burnt which is then in the exhuast.

Egon · Mar 18, 2008

Actually, the sulphur does not act like a lubricant but comes in conjunction with elements that do act as a lubricant. When the sulphur is removed these elements are also removed.

There is a fellow poster here who is very familiar with the actual chemical process and can properly explain what takes place.

Heywood Jannockitov · Mar 18, 2008

exiled said:
Sulfer dioxide accurs after being burnt which is then in the exhuast.

It doesn't all go out the exhaust. Some combustion gas/soot gets by the rings (blow-by) and mixes with the crank case oil.
Also why the oil turns black so quickly after changing it.

sd624 · Mar 18, 2008

exiled said:
4 out of the 5 test I've read should that most ultra's by them selves{without addivities} does not pass the scar test. The ones that did pass just made the lowest possible to pass the astmd-975. The fuel companies are just putting in enough additives to satify the goverment. However The enigine builder's something other{I cant think of the name right now to save my life} specs are higher than what the goverment says.

I dont think ultra makes any differnce in MPG at least I have'nt seen any. Sulfer is a lube. When liquid sulfer heats its viscity rises. I cant remember the temps its been awhile since I was in school. The liquid sulfer helps in the injection system. Sulfer dioxide accurs after being burnt which is then in the exhuast.

Exiled,

I would like to see that data....Do you have it?

exiled · Mar 19, 2008

Egon said:
Actually, the sulphur does not act like a lubricant but comes in conjunction with elements that do act as a lubricant. When the sulphur is removed these elements are also removed.

There is a fellow poster here who is very familiar with the actual chemical process and can properly explain what takes place.

Egon reading back over my statement I might have stated it wrong. I did'nt mean it like sulfer was "THE" lubricant. I do not contest that the process of removing sulfer removes other elements that are the lubricants. Generaly when you say that when they took out the sulfer they took out lubricant, that is a true statement and you dont have to have a science class about it.
I did'nt say sulfer acted like a lubricant. I said it was a lubricant. Liquid sulfer when heated its viscity rises. Is that not a lube? Does that not help the moving parts inside an injector? Does the removeual of sulfer it self make that big of an inpact if the other elements where to stay? I seriously dont know. But I do know this most lubricants lose viscity when heated or gets warm. Meaning they thin. So I think sulfer might help alittle in an engine system that's on the rather hot side.
I did'nt mean ALL Sulfer dioxide exited the engine. Buts lets face it, Sulfer dioxide and sulferic acid aint realling killing our oil. I know several guys with 99-03? 7.3L diesels that change their oil on 10,000 mile oil changes. Kev's 2,000 dually has over 500,000 miles and never been worked on and the oil has never been changed under 10,000 miles. 6.0Ls can barly make it to 7,500
mile oil changes. I change mine every 7,500 miles and BlackStone tells me I need to drop down to 5,000. 6.0Ls just shred{shear}the oil down. Maybe its the tight tolernces of the "new" diesels. Gas burners cant get much better than 5,000 miles oil changes. So I dont see how the ultra is helping oil cause of getting rid of sulferic acid or lowering the levels of it. I mwill be bold and dare say that probally the most corrioning threat we face for our diesels is the wrong coolant or not changing out the right one when needed or at least adding sca.
Their not taking the sulfer out of the diesel to help the engines. Its to make the fuel greener "more earth friendly". The old diesels will not care what you throw in there it'll burn it and just keep going. My whole point to Ken is that the Off road and High is the same but color and price of tax. But in the event his off road is indeed low or high sulfer his engine would probally do better burning it unless it is a new engine built to gain from the low or ultra low.

sd624, here is all the links I have left. I'll go threw them later and if this is'nt enough I'll the rest. I found alot od information when I was researching biodiesel logic's way of making biodiesel just cant see paying the $17,000 for the stuff to make it with, and soybean additives and biodiesel. Its not just my opion that their killing the fuel. Not to mention making it too expenceive. Alot of people shares this opinion. I should have worded my statement as Raw ultra instead of ultra by it's self. But I think you knew what I was talking about. Ultra low before the company puts some kind of lubricant and additives to it.

Lubricity Additive Study Results - Diesel Place

Intertek OCA Testing, Inspection and Consulting Services

Diesel Fuel Lubricity Additive Study

ScienceDirect - Fuel : Study on the lubrication properties of biodiesel as fuel lubricity enhancers

"SPICER LUBRICITY DIESEL" - topic profile :: BoardReader

Fischer-Tropsch Condensate Boosts Lubricity In Synthetic Diesel: Study | Global Refining & Fuels Report | Find Articles at BNET.com

Fwd: Re: Lubricity Additive Study for the ultra low sulfur diesel fuel - swvabiod | Google Groups

DIESEL FUEL LUBRICITY ADDITIVES STUDY - Page 3 - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum

SCDolphin · Mar 20, 2008

I have a gas station close by that sells 10% biodiesel which when I put it in a 5 gal container foams like it has soap in it, feels greasier and smells better than standard diesel when burned.