Natural gas?

[ponytug]

Try working in the HVAC trade where small low SEER indoor blowers (with outdoor units) were installed in tight spaces and now having to try and replace that same indoor unit with a higher efficient unit (minimum 14.3 SEER2 vs the older sub 10 SEER efficiency) that is much larger.

Just found out today Bosch is coming out with a 80% gas furnace and I asked why. It dawned on me the reason while I was asking the question, because they bought out JCI and York and now can make one LOL. Thing is, 80% gas furnaces are going by by in the near future.

How much would someone save by with an 80% furnace vs a 95% furnace? Just curious.

All the best, Peter

 

[jyoutz]

Try working in the HVAC trade where small low SEER indoor blowers (with outdoor units) were installed in tight spaces and now having to try and replace that same indoor unit with a higher efficient unit (minimum 14.3 SEER2 vs the older sub 10 SEER efficiency) that is much larger.

Just found out today Bosch is coming out with a 80% gas furnace and I asked why. It dawned on me the reason while I was asking the question, because they bought out JCI and York and now can make one LOL. Thing is, 80% gas furnaces are going by by in the near future.

And why would you want one? My 3 year old gas furnace is 95% efficient.

 

[anomad]

I know, lets burn natural gas to create heat to generate electricity and pipe the electricity to your house to heat water and things. Rather than just sending the gas straight to your house to create heat.

 

[jyoutz]

How much would someone save by with an 80% furnace vs a 95% furnace? Just curious.

All the best, Peter

The math is obvious.

 

[dstig1]

Ultra, we all keep telling you to get out of Cali... I don't know how you can take the BS anymore

 

[rontaki]

Ultra, we all keep telling you to get out of Cali... I don't know how you can take the BS anymore

I hear what you're saying
Ultra, myself and similarly minded inmates need to stick around this asylum until the next local election.

 

[ultrarunner]

Ultra, we all keep telling you to get out of Cali... I don't know how you can take the BS anymore

The handwriting is on the wall… especially with so many employers relocating… even if not 100% the bulk of the work force relocates with move.

I’ve never been one to cut and run plus I’m well established here with deep roots.

The crazy thing is since I gave my written notice at work of 35 years Jan 2nd I’ve been clocking 65 hour work weeks the last 6 weeks…

I see people I went to school with coming in as patients… some retired for years and it’s eye opening how much they have aged… plus the meds they take.

No male in my family has ever retired… both in the farming side and also on the small business side.

Strange how life plays out.

I like the weather here, my neighbors, coworkers and my home…

It’s the never ending bad news and stream of crazy regs that get to me..

 

[zzvyb6]

Natural gas will also provide the capability of an efficient, reliable, and inexpensive standby electric power for all weather comfort provisions. Get a meter with enough capacity to handle generator, furnace, tankless heater(s), shop needs and even a gas refrigerator.

 

[ultrarunner]

Natural gas will also provide the capability of an efficient, reliable, and inexpensive standby electric power for all weather comfort provisions. Get a meter with enough capacity to handle generator, furnace, tankless heater(s), shop needs and even a gas refrigerator.

Back when the 1989 earthquake hit and power was out for a week at my old original at the time home 1922 home I could cook, had hot water and the big basement gravity heater kept me warm… all gas appliances… the Honda 1000 generator was enough to keep the refrigerator working several hours twice a day and even do laundry with the gas dryer.

Why we would outlaw natural gas already in place… makes zero sense… especially where the infrastructure is well established.

 

[GrandpaSmurf825]

If you have the option for natural gas then by all means grab it. You won't regret it.

 

[anomad]

Back when the 1989 earthquake hit and power was out for a week at my old original at the time home 1922 home I could cook, had hot water and the big basement gravity heater kept me warm… all gas appliances… the Honda 1000 generator was enough to keep the refrigerator working several hours twice a day and even do laundry with the gas dryer.

Why we would outlaw natural gas infrastructure makes zero sense… especially where the infrastructure is well established.

Abandoning that infrastructure is absurd beyond words. My Pa is rolling in his grave with me just thinking about it.

 

[GrandpaSmurf825]

LP tanks. I think the laws are going to be pretty close to the same wherever you go.

In Illinois if the tank belongs to company "A" then company "B" can't fill that tank. I think there are allowances like an emergency situation and they might add a couple hundred to get someone by until the tank owner can deal with it. They are careful about respecting/following that law too. At my previous home I switched companies and the old company gave permission to the new company to transfer the remaining gas out. They then moved it out of the way. I went from a 500 gallon to a 1000 in the process. All companies in this area do a "summer fill rate" or similar program.

Auctions can be a good place to pick up a used tank if you want your own. Not everyone has these available but used anhydrous tanks can be converted to LP. They change out the valves/plumbing and install a new safety valve. You want the safety vent working properly! It's there so you don't have a torpedo.
Usually the anhydrous tanks are taken out of service because the baffles have broke loose inside. They aren't any fun to pull like that. Many times I've saw these go very cheap and you end up with a good heavy duty wagon running gear as well.

 

[ultrarunner]

If you have the option for natural gas then by all means grab it. You won't regret it.

Abandoning that infrastructure is absurd beyond words. My Pa is rolling in his grave with me just thinking about it.

Kind of like taking out traffic lanes to make bike lanes…

Not once have I ever seen a bike traveling an East Oakland bike lane…

Planner said something like build it and they will come…

 

[GrandpaSmurf825]

Planner said something like build it and they will come…

You know the planner was paid handsomely for the "great idea".
Then they will get paid again when they repurpose these bike lanes to the next great new idea.

 

[Sigarms]

And why would you want one? My 3 year old gas furnace is 95% efficient.

Once you get over 90%, you produce condensate, and this is same reason why you won't find any high efficiency gas package units.

When we move in a couple of months, the last system I'm replacing at the end of this month is a dual fuel heat pump with an 80% gas furnace, as there is a 80% gas furnace in the attic already, and I'm fine with it being I use the heat pump for heating down to about 30F outside air temp. That said, the one system in the basement is a dual fuel system using a 92% gas furnace.

Any HVAC system will produce water, the question becomes where (indoor / outdoor) and when (summer / winter).

Generally most guys in NC when dealing with an attic installation prefer to reduce the amount of potential water being produced and go with a non condensing gas gas furnace (80%).

Heating and air conditioning can be very regional on what type of HVAC systems are used given the weather and how the homes are built (I promise you that you'll find more swamp coolers in NM vs NC ).

Then you also have cost of equipment and cost of installation along with how you're going to vent the equipment given the current layout (to help reduce costs). For this reason, although the majority of gas furnaces being sold are 90% or higher, you'll find that most oil furnaces along with boilers being sold and installed are in the 80% range and not 90% or higher.

The bigger issue in HVAC is that California is the largest market for HVAC manufacturers, and when California passes a law dictating what kind of equipment can and can't be used, HVAC manufacturers have to comply if they want that market share, and for better or worse, they do.

This is exactly why manufacturers produce and sell low NOx gas furnaces.

 

[dnw64]

If you have the option for natural gas then by all means grab it. You won't regret it.

That's what I did. Our house in NJ had gas at the road but not to the house. I wanted to put in a whole house generator and considered a diesel since we have a 550 gallon No 2 tank for the furnace. Between the extra expense of the diesel unit, how cheap NG is, and how cheap it was to have the gas run (cost the company $4k, me $0) I went with NG. And I had them size it for heating/cooking as well since the oil burner is already over 20 years old and it makes the most sense to me to replace it with an NG one.

 

[CH4Ohio]

Once you get over 90%, you produce condensate,

But that's a good thing. It means the heat exchanger(s) have extracted enough heat from the combustion products (flue gases) to cool them to the point that water condenses. This is why we can vent the high efficiency equipment with PVC instead of using metal vent. Direct Vent and 90%+ is the way to go. Condensate is easy to deal with and routine.

 

[BackRoad]

The handwriting is on the wall… especially with so many employers relocating… even if not 100% the bulk of the work force relocates with move.

I’ve never been one to cut and run plus I’m well established here with deep roots.

The crazy thing is since I gave my written notice at work of 35 years Jan 2nd I’ve been clocking 65 hour work weeks the last 6 weeks…

I see people I went to school with coming in as patients… some retired for years and it’s eye opening how much they have aged… plus the meds they take.

No male in my family has ever retired… both in the farming side and also on the small business side.

Strange how life plays out.

I like the weather here, my neighbors, coworkers and my home…

It’s the never ending bad news and stream of crazy regs that get to me..

No past male in my family has ever retired either.

They all missed out on the best time of their life...

 

[Sigarms]

But that's a good thing. It means the heat exchanger(s) have extracted enough heat from the combustion products (flue gases) to cool them to the point that water condenses. This is why we can vent the high efficiency equipment with PVC instead of using metal vent. Direct Vent and 90%+ is the way to go. Condensate is easy to deal with and routine.

In NC (and your region may be different) when a gas furnace is going into an unconditioned attic, guys prefer to not have to deal with the water a gas furnace will produce in case of freezing temps.

I'm not arguing with you, just the way things are done in my area.

However, again, when dealing with a gas package unit, why you don't see 90+ efficient package units, due to freezing outside.

Generally speaking when I worked up north, for new construction homes, did boiler (80%) for heat and high velocity systems for AC. That may have changed in that area as well as that was over 2 decades ago.

When dealing with boilers, there is something to be said for cast iron LOL. Remember when the high efficient (90%+) Munchkin boiler was picking up up north back then. Try and buy a Minchkin boiler now.

 

[bdhsfz6]

I know, lets burn natural gas to create heat to generate electricity and pipe the electricity to your house to heat water and things. Rather than just sending the gas straight to your house to create heat.

I'll admit, it seems absurd. The powers that be claim the natural gas power plants emit less NO2 than home appliances and these plants are being replaced with wind & solar.

No one seems to care that the CA electric grid is falling apart. How it's going to handle the added load is anyone's guess.