LP gas company question

[Sigarms]

Five years ago when we bought our house, we were offered a "pre buy" on LP gas from one of the local LP companies. We'd buy 1000 gallons at a set price.

Well, changed some things in the house a couple years ago and it dropped our LP usuage substantially.

Last year we never got anything from the LP company on the "pre buy" program.

I called last week to see if they still offered it, and they told me that since the LP pricing market is so volitile, they can't offer it right now because they could lose their pants.

Makes sense to me.

Well, talking with a customer of mine not in my local area, and we we're talking about some other changes I was going to make at my house and my LP use. My customer has the same local LP gas company, but his local office is in another area. He (my customer) informs me that he just got his "pre buy" offer the other week.

Now I'm scrathing my head.

My first thought is that since my LP use dropped substantially, the LP company does not want to offer me a "pre buy".

Does this make any sense?

Do any of you still get to "pre buy" from you local LP companies?

 

[Dyer retired]

Sigarms,

Your situation makes as much sense as anything the Propane Company does. My old boss runs everything at his house on Propane. They deliver his propane to him once a month. I have a Vermont Castings propane stove (looks like a wood stove, fake logs, etc., but puts out a tremendous amount of heat) that heats about half my house....the rest is oil fired hot air. My propane company told me that if I were heating my entire house, they could offer me propane at a reduced price, which came to just about $1.50 a gallon cheaper. My propane apparently costs more because I use less????? They deliver to my house on a "watchdog" system, which comes to about once a month. They don't offer anyone up here pre-pay on propane (the oil companies do) and they now charge a delivery fee of an extra $3.19....they call it a Regulation Fee. People using propane here don't have a lot of options for companies to buy from, so they don't feel the need to offer pre-pay packages (just a guess.) My last propane delivery was $4.39 a gallon. My old boss is still getting his propane at about $1.50 cheaper a gallon. If they offered a pre-pay now, a thousand bucks probably wouldn't get me far.

The company has now resorted to a different tactic though and now deliver twice a month, put fewer gallons in of course, and the total bill "looks" smaller. It's getting a little picky, but that $3.19 charge shows up twice a month now in addition to the absurd price per gallon I have to pay.

My final rant......I continually watch Irving Oil (Big oil company in Maine and Canada,) Exxon, Chevron, etc. advertise themselves on television. As I understand it, those commercial spots don't come cheap and why they feel the need to advertise is beyond me. I have yet to pass a gas station and think back to the commercial where Irving Oil is trying to save the Wright Whales by not running over them with their oil tankers and buy gas because of the great cause espoused in the commercials. The Exxon CEO is paid somewhere in the range of 31 million a year, salary and stock options, with generous bonuses and expense accounts on top of that. I'm just guessing that there is a fairly large staff of CIO's, CFO's, COO's, etc. with Exxon that make less than that, but probably not much less. I wonder what the brainstorming sessions are like at Exxon when they try to figure out ways to pass along savings to the average customer out there. O.k., one more rant,...when the wind blows in Saudi Arabia the price per gallon goes up three cents, but when the wind stops blowing, it takes about 3 weeks for that price to drop back. Someone is making money off the poor saps that are forced to pay the price.....us! There, thanks for listening.

How does all this relate to Tractors? My diesel price per gallon is teetering on the $4.00 mark now (it may be over now, I buy 10 gallons at a time and haven't needed to for a month or so.) The great news is that my Kubota is pretty easy on diesel.

Dyer, retired

 

[charlz]

Yeah propane companies have some interesting business models. I couldn't get ours to show up once a month in the winter even though that is the contract we had with them. They kept insisting on 'call out' or whatever and adding a $50.00 fee to the delivery for this 'service'. I rent my tank for $60 a year and so they add $.10 a gallon to all the propane I buy as an 'insurance' fee on the tank... anything goes wrong with the tank they fix it for free!! If the regulator fails and it all vents to atmosphere when they 'fix it' does this insurance cover the lost propane? Nope, I get to pay for all of that to be replaced myself.

So I ran the numbers, put in a pellet stove and have not had a propane fill in 4 years. We started with a full 500 gallon tank, about 85% and are still at about 74% 4 years later. The pellets cost about 45% that of propane on a BTU-BTU basis. The stove will pay for itself in 4.5 years... one more winter.

 

[CurlyDave]

When we were building, our contractor wanted to put in a tank rented from one of the local companies he had used for years.

By chance, I had found a different company (Universal Cylinder Exchange) who would deliver propane without any service charge. For instance, last fall we paid $1.99/gallon, while neighbors with Blue Star or Suburban were paying $3.29 and more.

So, I rented a 500 gal tank from them. They offered to fill monthly, but I declined. There is a lot of seasonal fluctuation in propane prices, and I want to buy in late summer, when they are low, and work off the stored propane all winter. If I run low, I will buy 100 gallons at a time at the higher winter prices.

Anyway, check different companies. I know Universal was came out and replaced my neighbor's tank, and then transfered all of the propane in it to their new tank. No charge.

 

[Sigarms]

Anyway, check different companies. I know Universal was came out and replaced my neighbor's tank, and then transfered all of the propane in it to their new tank. No charge.

Theres the rub. Existing tank is surrounding by some big bushes to hide the tank (previous owner). Does a great job of hiding the tank, however, it would be a bugger to try and change that tank out. I went down this road when we first bought the house because when we went to close on the house there was a bill from the LP company for the exisiting LP still in the tank (they credited the previous owners). After running the numbers, one more gas furnace will be coming out (replacing it with a variable speed heat pump) and after much debate, will be going with a ventless fireplace insert for back up heat instead of a dual fuel system for the first floor (N.C winters are mild compared to some of the other parts of the U.S). This should cut my LP use down even more.

 

[coobie]

I trust propane compaines about as far as I can throw them.The local propane(STAR) I used to deal with just got caught price gouging,and has there ***** in a ringer.I bought a corn/wood pellet stove that heats my whole house about 5 years ago,best darn investment that I have ever made.Propane back then was 99 cents a gallon pre-buy.I fill my 500 gallon once a year,last year the price in august was $1.49 gal. to fill up.coobie

 

[Sigarms]

I bought a corn/wood pellet stove that heats my whole house about 5 years ago,best darn investment that I have ever made

I looked at combo units, issue is upfront cost as well as a liner for the chimney (for venting). One issue is 3 floors which the fireplace cannot heat at the same time. Considering that I will be only using this fireplace insert for backup heat only on the first floor, at this point in time, I think it's the best investment I could make.

 

[coobie]

I looked at combo units, issue is upfront cost as well as a liner for the chimney (for venting). One issue is 3 floors which the fireplace cannot heat at the same time. Considering that I will be only using this fireplace insert for backup heat only on the first floor, at this point in time, I think it's the best investment I could make.

My quadra-fire pellet/corn stove(40,000 btu)vents directly out my side wall with a 3 inch pipe,like a cloths dryer vent,its a pretty easy install,I have about $2,000 invested.I have a 1620 sq.ft house with a basement,my stove keeps it 73-75 degrees on the main floor and 50 degrees in the basement when its 0-25 degrees outside.If it gets below zero outside I have a wall mounted 5 plaque propane heater in the basement also which I have had to run very seldom.coobie

 

[Sigarms]

My quadra-fire pellet/corn stove(40,000 btu)vents directly out my side wall with a 3 inch pipe,like a cloths dryer vent,its a pretty easy install,I have about $2,000 invested.I have a 1620 sq.ft house with a basement,my stove keeps it 73-75 degrees on the main floor and 50 degrees in the basement when its 0-25 degrees outside.If it gets below zero outside I have a wall mounted 5 plaque propane heater in the basement also which I have had to run very seldom.coobie

coobie

Couple issues.

I have a brick fireplace on the first floor I don't use.

All three floors in the house have thier own ductwork with their own HVAC systems (not the way I'd do it from scatch, but what I've got to work with).

Third floor has been replaced with a dual fuel system (heat pump and gas furnace which has already decreased my LP use). Since this is where we spend most of the day (ironic that it's at night when we're sleeping), wanted to be able to have the option of gas heat on some very rare cold N.C nights.

I can get a GREAT deal on a ventless LP fireplace. No venting to worry about (less cost), and it's not used for primary heat (as mentioned, heat pump with variable speed which increases the EER, SEER and HSPF rating, which will save substantially on electric from the upgrade from 10 SEER). Worst case, I can run the fan for the first floor and circulate the warm air from the ventless fireplace during the day (which should be rare) when the electric strips can't keep up (or when we want warmer air from the ventless fireplace). We spend our nights in the basement before going to bed on the third floor.

Basement has a Trane 90% gas furnace, and since it's below grade, will replace it down the road with a R410A heat pump system which should handle both the cold and heat. May zone it for the bedroom alone, but at this point, no way will the first floor heating system help down there.

 

[coobie]

coobie

Couple issues.

I have a brick fireplace on the first floor I don't use.

All three floors in the house have thier own ductwork with their own HVAC systems (not the way I'd do it from scatch, but what I've got to work with).

Third floor has been replaced with a dual fuel system (heat pump and gas furnace which has already decreased my LP use). Since this is where we spend most of the day (ironic that it's at night when we're sleeping), wanted to be able to have the option of gas heat on some very rare cold N.C nights.

I can get a GREAT deal on a ventless LP fireplace. No venting to worry about (less cost), and it's not used for primary heat (as mentioned, heat pump with variable speed which increases the EER, SEER and HSPF rating, which will save substantially on electric from the upgrade from 10 SEER). Worst case, I can run the fan for the first floor and circulate the warm air from the ventless fireplace during the day (which should be rare) when the electric strips can't keep up (or when we want warmer air from the ventless fireplace). We spend our nights in the basement before going to bed on the third floor.

Basement has a Trane 90% gas furnace, and since it's below grade, will replace it down the road with a R410A heat pump system which should handle both the cold and heat. May zone it for the bedroom alone, but at this point, no way will the first floor heating system help down there.

Good luck to you on whatever system you choose down the road.These a rough times price wise to heat or light a home.Good luck,coobie

 

[kenmac]

After running the numbers, one more gas furnace will be coming out (replacing it with a variable speed heat pump)




Joe Don't take this the wrong way but,

I can probably get you a Trane HP with a $ 500.00 rebate and 0% for 36 mo. on select models I can Probably throw in a programable t.stat



It's hard to Stop a Trane



Where's that tool you were going to send me a picture ??

I might have to have 1

 

[Sigarms]

It's hard to Stop a Trane

Yeah, it's hard to stop one, but once it gets off track, it ain't never going back on

Or wait a minute, is that saying "it's hard to start a Trane?"

 

[Sigarms]

Where's that tool you were going to send me a picture ??

Look in the Photo section, about five or six posts down, with your name as the title

 

[schmism]

If I run low, I will buy 100 gallons at a time at the higher winter prices.

we dont own a tank but dont have to pay a fee to rent either. As far as i can tell there is little to no markup on the propane in there tank vs a tank i own.

The companies in our area figured out they cant afford to lose customers to people that own there own tanks so, they charge roughly the same price for everyone.

Were my company gets ya is they have a 200 gal min order for delivery. That was last fall. late this winter/early spring it was up to 250gal min. and the truck ended up pumping 277 gallons.

on a 500 gal tank based on my usage im hosed on when i buy based on minimums. Im considering adding a second 500gal tank of my own so i have more leancy on when im buying and how much i have to buy at one time.

Also note that to get my propane gas grill tank filled is at a cost of about 2.5-3 times the acutal per gallon cost. Even if i take my tank to them to have it filled (not exchanged)

 

[Skerby]

i'm going to buy my 500 gallon tank from my propane company for $600.
in my area, it's about $.60 cheaper a gallon (IF YOU OWN THE TANK) and right now i was quoted to get filled at $1.999 / gallon and gauranteed fills through march 09 at $2.249 / gallon.. basically the supplier is locking in profits throught futures contracts which i asked him outfront...

 

[chh]

It sounds like many of you don't have enough competition going. I have a 500 gal "free" tank(free as long as I have that company fill it exclusively), filled when I call and ask for it.(no "call out" fee) Usually fill it in late summer and maybe get a 100 to 150 gallons again in early spring to get thru the rest of the cool weather and for the summer. I have yet to pay over $2.00 a gallon. Last fill was in the $1.80's. Another company is generally a few cents cheaper, but charges $6 a month for tank rental if you don't own your own tank. Since we went to the high effiency gas furnace and tankless hot water heater. We don't use over 600 to 650 gallons a year to heat the house, water and to cook with. Of course OK does not have winters like some of you all do. In most of OK we don't use heating oil. Most cities have natural gas service and rural is either total electric or propane.

The last 2 years no local company has offered a "pre buy" option. I used it when it was offered though.

 

[WayneB]

Awhile back I installed a Bosch On Demand hotwater heater and presently am buying propane at TSC for $89. a 100 pound tank. Now I know I have to go and get it and the price is high, but until I find the best price for propane around I might continue hauling the tanks home.

It is too new to know just how long a single tank will last, but I have two tanks to work with so I am okay for now.

Key reason for switching over was to save money and not use the oil furnace during the warm months. We have forced hotwater and were getting our domestic hot water off from the furnace which meant when it was 85 degrees out I would hear the furnace kick on.

Are any of you using On-Demand hot water systems and do you know what type of savings you are seeing over the storage tank type hotwater heaters?

Some conversion rates for oil and propane.

Propane conversions

1 gallon = 91,500 BTU
1 cubic foot = 2,500 BTU
1 pound = 21,500 BTU
4.24 lbs = 1 gallon
36.39 cubic feet = 1 gallon

Oil coversions

1 gallon kerosene = 135,000 BTU
1 gallon #2 oil = 138,500 BTU
1 gallon diesel = 139,200 BTU
1 gallon #6 oil = 153,200 BTU

 

[RayMunising]

The October 2008 issue of Consumers Reports magazine has an article on tankless vs tank type hot water heaters you might be interested in reading.

Average annual operating cost for tankless $330. Initial cost $800 - $1150
Average annual operating cost for high-efficiency 50 gallon tank $330. Initial cost $1400
Average annual operating cost for a standard 50 gallon tank $400. Initial cost $400

The payback period for a tankless is very long because its higher initial cost ... 15-22 years.

Operating costs based on natual gas.

 

[WayneB]

The October 2008 issue of Consumers Reports magazine has an article on tankless vs tank type hot water heaters you might be interested in reading.

Average annual operating cost for tankless $330. Initial cost $800 - $1150
Average annual operating cost for high-efficiency 50 gallon tank $330. Initial cost $1400
Average annual operating cost for a standard 50 gallon tank $400. Initial cost $400

The payback period for a tankless is very long because its higher initial cost ... 15-22 years.

Operating costs based on natual gas.

Ray I will take a look at the Consumers Report and read the article. We have an On-Demand water heater at our camp (summer home) and it certainly has been cheaper to operate than a 40 or 50 gallon hot water tank, plus it is maintenance free and easy to winterize.

Here at our home we have a tankless water heater that is nothing more than a coil that resides in the furnace boiler. This means that the furnace has to be ready to run all the time (four seasons) to maintain hot water. So in the summer when it is 85 degrees out the furnace is running.

 

[jinjimbob]

Ray I will take a look at the Consumers Report and read the article. We have an On-Demand water heater at our camp (summer home) and it certainly has been cheaper to operate than a 40 or 50 gallon hot water tank, plus it is maintenance free and easy to winterize.

For a house or cabin that is hardly used, a tankless is much cheaper, this is the exception though.