Loading tires with Propylene Glycol

[IslandTractor]

Free pro/glycol is just a good idea.. IE..less toxic effects on animals. Plenty of logic in that.. If you don't agree.. post why you think you should use the poisonus kind vs the free non poisonus kind he is getting?????

I never commented ont he de-ionized water..

the nitrogen charge.. that's a take or leave.. if it's free.. might as well take.

soundguy

I don't think I ever advocated ethylene glycol if that is what you are referring to as the poisonous kind. I agree that is bad stuff as it has a sweet taste and animals might ingest it if it leaks. The alternative I would use (if I had to pay) would be simple windshield washer fluid (-20). Propylene glycol is great as a freebie but it is more expensive to buy than WWF and has no particular advantage I can see. I don't think methanol is what you are referring to when you mention toxicity but in any case it seems pretty minimal unless ingested. I'm not aware that anyone thinks it does environmental damage when/if it leaks. It would also tend to penetrate the ground like water and disappear more quickly than the more viscous ethylene glycol.

 

[Soundguy]

I don't think I ever advocated ethylene glycol if that is what you are referring to as the poisonous kind. I agree that is bad stuff as it has a sweet taste and animals might ingest it if it leaks. The alternative I would use (if I had to pay) would be simple windshield washer fluid (-20). Propylene glycol is great as a freebie but it is more expensive to buy than WWF and has no particular advantage I can see. I don't think methanol is what you are referring to when you mention toxicity but in any case it seems pretty minimal unless ingested. I'm not aware that anyone thinks it does environmental damage when/if it leaks. It would also tend to penetrate the ground like water and disappear more quickly than the more viscous ethylene glycol.

I thought you were saying to not use the free prop/glyc, vs buying the other.. and I couldn't figure out why you would want to buy something else, vs using free.. and if you did buy, that ethyl/glyc would be a bad choice, vs WW fluid.. which isn' t particularly a bad choice.. but it is not free.

As for logic.. I'm trying to figure out why it's logical to not use the free stuff.. vs buying anything else?

Soundguy

 

[IslandTractor]

As for logic.. I'm trying to figure out why it's logical to not use the free stuff.. vs buying anything else?

Soundguy

Agree that if it is free it's a no brainer. The original poster has it for free. The rest of the comments only apply to the rest of us who need to go buy the stuff. WWF costs less than PG to provide antifreeze protection.

 

[Harry c]

Just a little note of irony here.., Many seem to agonize over using anything different than the manufacturer's recommended oil viscosity, hydraulic fluid,on,on. My Kubota manual says Calcium Chloride in the tires! Use whatever you want. Goes for oil, hyd fluid, antifreeze, fuel or whatever else goes in your tractor.

 

[fonman_4859]

One reason for using nitrogen is that it will not allow rust to form as "air" will. The telephone companies use it to run air tools on their construction and repair trucks because they don't have to worry about the tools going bad from rust. It also makes the tires run cooler. And if its free why not use it. Just my opinion.

 

[IslandTractor]

One reason for using nitrogen is that it will not allow rust to form as "air" will. The telephone companies use it to run air tools on their construction and repair trucks because they don't have to worry about the tools going bad from rust. It also makes the tires run cooler. And if its free why not use it. Just my opinion.

In a fluid loaded tire (to 75% of volume being fluid) there is barely any oxygen available to form rust anyway. I don't disagree with the principle that nitrogen would be an advantage but in practice it is a trivial difference and certainly not worth the hassle of taking your tractor to a nitrogen source.

Since when have tractor tires been overheating? That might well be an issue with NASCAR tractors but for the average CUT that is simply a non issue.

Theory is fine but in practice this nitrogen thing as applied to tractors just seem silly.

 

[larso1]

At 20 psi average tire (gage) pressure, that's about 35 psi absolute pressure. So, that being 2 1/2 x std. atmospheric pressure/air (and oxygen)density....might make a difference in its "rustability"?

 

[IslandTractor]

That is still, in absolute terms, very little oxygen available for purposes of oxidization.

 

[larso1]

How much oxygen? How much does it take to initiate corrosion? Do you know? Pure speculation on my part and yours. But I'm not curious enough to research it.

 

[IslandTractor]

Pure speculation? Maybe on your part. I would say that the many years experience with WWF and RimGuard etc in tires/wheels with compressed air that do not result in rusting would be pretty convincing evidence that the amount of oxygen in a sealed tire is trivial with regard to rust potential. Additionally, it is pretty well documented that even highly corrosive fluids such as CaCl do not rust wheels so long as the only oxygen is that contained in the sealed tire. People report wheels rusting near the rubber valve insert which is a source of leakage and therefore exposure to the more than adequate oxygen outside the tire. The major tire companies talk about being careful to rinse wheels quickly once exposed to air. None of them that I can find suggest using nitrogen to fill loaded tractor tires. Have I seen these points written up in an engineering journal...no. But try to find some evidence to the contrary.

This business of speculating on nitrogen for filling tractor tires is indeed just that...speculation. There is not a shred of evidence or experience that anyone has brought to the discussion suggesting it is a prudent thing to consider doing. NASCAR has good reasons to use nitrogen related to tire temperature. Maybe with compressed "air" tools that do not have adequate water filtration it might make sense to use nitrogen given the amount of air that goes through the tools each day. But to fill tractor tires....please, give me evidence to support the suggestion.

 

[larso1]

Have you never seen a used tractor advertized wherein the owner points out that the rear rims were rusted out due to them being loaded with CaCl? You've got to be kidding. I've seen plenty. Just check out any of the used tractor forums, Yesterday's tractors, etc. Don't know about WWF.

I don't know the ingredients in RimGuard but the name itself suggests that it has a corrosion inhibitor package like any coolant system antifreeze does. That would protect against the corrosive effects of oxygen in the compressed air and the dissolved oxygen in the water. So, I remain unconvinced by your so-called "pretty convincing evidence."

 

[IslandTractor]

I specifically mentioned that CaCl can rust (duh! ). However, it tends to be only when there is extra oxygen made available such as when the tire/wheel is broken down or when there are undetected leaks around the valve stem. Of course there can be rust that develops over 15-20 years which effectively destroys the wheel but the big companies simply advise that one carefully washes off the rims whenever they are broken down. The main point being that rust occurs VERY slowly when the only oxygen available is that contained in a normally sealed inflated tire. Don't you think farmers with thousand dollar wheels on their big tractors would be using nitrogen instead of compressed air if it had been shown to be important in preventing rust? I haven't found a word on the subject of nitrogen in tractor tires from the big companies like Goodyear. And, as far as I can tell this thread is the only time on TBN that the issue of nitrogen has come up. My point is just to point out that some theoretical NASCAR advantage does not translate into practical evidence based in tractors. Even filling even passenger car tires with nitrogen is a silly marketing gimick used by tire retailers to upcharge. It has limited but more rationale for passenger cars than it does for farm tractors though. Try Googling on this subject. It is pretty clearly a marketing fad and there is no reason to contaminate TBN with that crap (excuse me Bird, I meant crud ).

 

[Treemonkey1000]

contaminate TBN with that crap (excuse me Bird, I meant crud ).

Island T the technical term is Manure.. Something most of us are familiar with

 

[IslandTractor]

Island T the technical term is Manure.. Something most of us are familiar with

Point taken.

 

[Soundguy]

. But to fill tractor tires....please, give me evidence to support the suggestion.

Why give evidence... why can't some one just -want- to do it.

If, in your own words, you can understand why nascar does it.. then why does that not also satisfy someone else wanting to do it? IE.. if nascar does it for superior temperature stability.. then why couldn't a tractor user with a few extra bucks burning a hole in his pocket also use it for a lil more pressure/temperature stability?

If your argument is that it's fine for nascar.. but not fine for everyone else.. well then.. you need to run for office as you are advocating a double standard

I'll admit a nitrogen charge in a tractor tire is likely to have only trivial effects .. but isn't that what life is about ( at least here in the USA anyway).. the ability to make trivil choices about what one does with ones life and stuff.. as long as it doesn't hurt anybody else... right? Now.. if you disagrre with that.. you DEFFINATELY need to run for office.. but watch out.. hillary and obama are already taking the top spot in the party you'd be joining.

Ok mods.. I really really tried to keep that one nicey nicey... and essentially non political.. save for a few proper names..

edit: I'd like to add that I'm not advocating nitrogen charging.. just the ability to freely make the choice .. and if the choice was made.. that it would not be to reduce the O2 content for the purpose of staving off corrosion.. but for mere pressure stability. The corrosion issue can be adequately handles by cleanliness and proper maintenance... besides.. I've never seen a inner-tube rust!

soundguy

 

[IslandTractor]

Why give evidence... why can't some one just -want- to do it.
soundguy

No problem. Free country etc etc. I ain't no pinko commie, I just don't vote for idiots like Bush. And, to get back on subject, I am simply pointing out that there is no evidence that nitrogen in this context is useful. It doesn't make sense except as a wahoo gotta-have-the-latest NASCAR-stuff-on-my tractor gimmick. Tractor tires don't overhead and burst into flames. Most importantly however, there is no data to support the practice in tractor tires. I don't give a flying hoot if some gullible person decides to muscle his tires down to the local tire shop and have them filled with nitrogen. I just want to challenge TBNers who support the idea to come up with some data or a rational engineering argument before suggesting it makes sense. For those interested in pissing away money on a gimmick I have no argument. I'd rather piss away my extra money on beer.

 

[Soundguy]

Ok.. here's the rational engineering argument.

Nitrogen is more volume stable in a wide range of temperatures vs plain old mixed air. Thus when you have a tire that goes from cold to hot, with mixed air, with a more or less fixed internal volume, then the pressure changes a little bit. Compair that to a tire with. say.. the nitrogen charge which is more likely to have a constant pressure inthe hot to cold range.

there's your ancedotal rational argument. I never claime dit would be anything more than a trivial difference... but a difference it is.

soundguy

 

[IslandTractor]

Ok.. here's the rational engineering argument.

Nitrogen is more volume stable in a wide range of temperatures vs plain old mixed air. Thus when you have a tire that goes from cold to hot, with mixed air, with a more or less fixed internal volume, then the pressure changes a little bit. Compair that to a tire with. say.. the nitrogen charge which is more likely to have a constant pressure inthe hot to cold range.

there's your ancedotal rational argument. I never claime dit would be anything more than a trivial difference... but a difference it is.

soundguy

OK, I can accept both the argument and the assessment that it would be a trivial difference. Peace. I'm now going to add a trivial amount of nitrogen to my tires and then slap a bunch of NASCAR stickers on it.

 

[gemini5362]

speaking of arguments. I never could understand why someone would spend a lot of money on beer just to urinate it out. I think I would be happier spending my money on something like nitrogen so that I could have constant pressure in my tractor tires and maybe get a trifle beter fuel mileage. Rather than spend it on something that is just going to filter through some internal organs and end up either on or in the ground.

 

[IslandTractor]

speaking of arguments. I never could understand why someone would spend a lot of money on beer just to urinate it out.

Good kidney exercise. Cheaper than a health club.