Little barn build in progress, couple questions

[deezler]

Hi all,

If there's one thing I've learned from this section of the forum, it's that there are a LOT of different ways to build a shed/barn. This is my first attempt at building anything substantial. While it's been a lot of fun thus far, my body is a wreck after 3 days on the job, haha!

My shed will be:
- 23x20 feet (14x20 being the "primary" section with larger 4x6 posts)
- Posts sitting atop concrete footers, but not IN concrete. Wanted them removable if need be.
- dirt floor. Please don't try to convince me to go with concrete. Multiple reasons why I can't. Just can't. Dirt is ok with me, and my soil is almost pure sand - very well draining and mostly inert.
- As cheap as possible. Using salvaged (but quite new) 2x4s and OSB sheets. Trying to keep the total lumber expense under $1k. Doors, fasteners and other hardware may end up pushing another 3-400.

Since the depth of experience in pole-building construction is so deep on this forum, I wanted to ask a couple of things.

- How slowly can I finish this building without worrying about the un-treated lumber? Obviously I am using treated lumber for the posts, anything touching the ground, and any fascias being left exposed to the elements. But the whole interior is untreated. Will it get brittle and warpy if left exposed to the elements for long? Do I have just a couple weeks to get it covered up? A couple months? A year? (The goal is to get it all enclosed and lock-able before the snow flies)

- How overboard does everyone like to go with the fasteners? Right now everything is mostly just tacked together with 16p nails. I definitely plan to go back and add lag bolts and carriage bolts to secure all the major structural connections. But it's hard to know where to stop with this - I could keep add simpson plates and lag bolts way past what's necessary.

- How deep does the "rat wall" need to be below grade? A fully submerged 2x12, or does a simple 2x6 suffice?

- Anyone see anything obviously wrong thus far?

Thanks.

 

[Bill Guenthner]

I've used untreated 2x4's that I had stacked off the ground outside for a year or more with no problems. I have some stairs on an outbuilding where I used untreated lumber for treads intending to replace them when the project was completed. They've been there almost 3 years and are used regularly and still very solid. They are however painted with red barn stain. The biggest problem I have with untreated lumber is carpenter bees, even after the walls are up. I've found that an occasional bug bomb in the barn keeps them away.

 

[KennyG]

I wouldn't do it myself, but I've seen framed structures sit for a year or more before finishing with no apparent problems. Just make sure nothing stays wet. OSB I'd be a little more concerned about. It is "exposure rated" but I don't like to let it get rained on for fear it will warp.

For a building this size, just nail it well and don't worry about lag bolts etc. My pole barn is all nailed and it's been standing for over 30 years.

 

[deezler]

Alright, thanks guys. Guess I will not worry too much about taking a vacation before I get the barn roof on.

Kenny, not sure I can live with just nailing... I am kind of OCD with getting things fastened together. Haha.

 

[KennyG]

Alright, thanks guys. Guess I will not worry too much about taking a vacation before I get the barn roof on.

Kenny, not sure I can live with just nailing... I am kind of OCD with getting things fastened together. Haha.

I'm kind of that way too, but think about the load direction. In shear (perpendicular to the nail) it's almost impossible for a nail to fail. If the force is parallel (pull out), screws work a lot better. If you look at normal framing, almost all the load on fasteners is shear. If you look at metal siding or roofing or drywall, it's a different story which is why screws are recommended.

 

[tcreeley]

It is nice to get it covered- but ok if not. Try to get the rafters up, some cross pieces or sheathed and nail a tarp over it for the winter. It will do fine for the winter.\-if screwing, use lag or carriage bolts/nut
avoid using heavy long drywall screws, even if treated for exposure. They are brittle and will snap under stress.

For nailing, hangers + nailer 3.5", or better yet real 16 penny and 20 penny nails. Just change the angle as you put each nail in- holds great. For a nailer get treated nails (glue).

 

[nybirdman]

I like to use screws myself on projects.Nail guns are great for this type of project.They have ones that run on gas cartridges.
The Amish around here laugh at us;they hammer everything,of course they don't have to follow any building codes like us English.

 

[deezler]

More thanks.

Yeah I have thought about the load directions and fastener capabilities and whatnot. Not worried about the nails failing, since they are strong, especially in shear. And also so dang easy to pound in and hold things together. But I do worry a bit about them loosening up over time and allowing boards to warp and pull apart, even if just slightly. Hence I'll keep the nails that are already pounded in and add a lag bolt or two at each major interface. That's my current thinking, anyway.

Definitely trying to get it done by snow season, my tractor lives outside right now....

 

[ENG18LT]

Just a quick thought, if you posts are treated you may need galvanized nails. The chemicals cause premature failure of non-galvanized metals, unless it is stainless. Deck screws are ok for treated lumber, but at $35 for 5lbs that will get expensive. You can get galvanized nails for air nailers at any lumber yard. This also goes for any metal against or into treated lumber. Just something to think about. Nice pictures by the way.

 

[deezler]

Yep, using galvanized nails, lag bolts and washers, thanks though.

Barn is on hold for a week or two; hopefully I'll get some pics of progress up after then.

 

[radioman]

I see you are posting from MI. I'd wouldnt worry about untreated lumber being outside since the wood is already fastened to frame where it can gt air and dry out properly. Of course its best sooner the better to get the roof on. One thought tho- If you get the osb on the roof but no shingles but you do have time to put tar paper down, I'd cover it up with tarp or plastic and weigh it down since snow will ruin the OSB for sitting on it given you are from MI just like here in NYS.

 

[deezler]

One thought tho- If you get the osb on the roof but no shingles but you do have time to put tar paper down, I'd cover it up with tarp or plastic and weigh it down since snow will ruin the OSB for sitting on it given you are from MI just like here in NYS.

Even through the tar paper? I was going to roll the tar paper across and probably call it good. But if snow will still ruin the OSB through it, I'd better tarp or shingle it sooner than later? Hmmmm. We'll see about snow... last year's lack of winter had only a pittance of the white stuff. Sort of feels like mother nature is going to swing back the other way this year.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[Carl Bert]

Even through the tar paper? I was going to roll the tar paper across and probably call it good. But if snow will still ruin the OSB through it, I'd better tarp or shingle it sooner than later? Hmmmm. We'll see about snow... last year's lack of winter had only a pittance of the white stuff. Sort of feels like mother nature is going to swing back the other way this year.

Thanks for your reply.

They say the tar paper should not sit exposed to the elements, for too long. One reason is the tar paper starts to get wavy (for lack of a better word) and lifts away from the sheathing. Depending on how bad it gets, it will be noticeable when the shingles are done. They will also look wavy and won't sit nice and flat as they should. That is what happened to me 2 years ago, when I built my shed. Good luck, your off to a good start. Heres mine:

 

[radioman]

tar paper is weak to stay in place on its own relying on fasteners alone. Snow will move the tar paper all over and will curl up in the sun from the wide temps swings of snow/rain and sun. Once the paper is curling - snow that melts into ice and warms up again will just pull out the paper in sections or pieces. I been there and done that. If you dont have time to put sheathing on roof- I'd put it off till you get shingles or whatever roofing you plan to use like metal roofing.

Problem is we dont know your timeframe is before snow starts and how much time you put into building it. If you do decide to use tar paper only, and you put in wood strips to help preventing the winds from ripping it off, its cheap enough you can replace the tar paper again before the final roofing.

 

[deezler]

Thanks for the responses. Sounds like my plan for this year might be to do single or maybe double-layer tar paper, and simply tarp over that. Then come back and do shingles or metal paneling as the future budget permits. Can't really afford anything more major at this point.

Well, I am back to work on my lil' barn after a nice vacation.

After getting lag screws and carriage bolts through all the major intersections, the barn is much sturdier. Probably overkill, but me likey.

Got all the rafters and fascia boards up now. Next step is purlins and sheeting.

Now I just gotta figure out how to do the walls/girts.

 

[Dr Dave]

Looking good sofar!

Dave

 

[tcreeley]

I've had good luck with tarps. I'd lay 2x4 16 oc across your rafters and tarp over that nailing the tarp down along the edges. Take the 2X4-s off when you want to sheathe or cover over them with metal panels or sheathing.
If you sheathe the roof- I'd use 3/4" plywood. You need to have something thick enough to hold shingle nails- even then I don't like it much. Cheaper than plywood are rough cut 1x4's. They work fine. Shiplap- rough on one side has a uniform thickness. I used to buy a lift of rough cut (1000 brd ft) #5 pine/spruce. I'd choose out the boards and cut out the red rot, etc- literally the cheapest way to go. Local saw mills will usually sell this stuff.

Also you need metal (or wood) ties between your rafters View attachment 284915

They make the whole roof act as one piece and eliminate any tendency for a rafter to want to role. You'll notice the difference when you walk on it- stiffer. Pretty cheap- wood blocking does the same.

Good luck.

 

[deezler]

I already have a huge pile of 10' 2x4s and 7/16" OSB sheets that were too good a deal to pass up (10 cents on the dollar, lightly used). So unfortunately my budget says that's what I have to use. Not a fan of the OSB at all, but plywood or full metal paneling is wayyyy too expensive.

I wasn't sure whether to go with 16" OC or 24" OC for the purlins, but I will be laying them all the way across the rafters. Pretty sure that will tie them together plenty strong.

 

[tcreeley]

The OSB really needs to stay dry to keep it from flaking and losing its structural strength. Good wall material on top of a 2x4 stud wall.

 

[ustmd]

Thanks for the responses. Sounds like my plan for this year might be to do single or maybe double-layer tar paper, and simply tarp over that. Then come back and do shingles or metal paneling as the future budget permits. Can't really afford anything more major at this point.

Well, I am back to work on my lil' barn after a nice vacation.

After getting lag screws and carriage bolts through all the major intersections, the barn is much sturdier. Probably overkill, but me likey.

Got all the rafters and fascia boards up now. Next step is purlins and sheeting.

Great build...a possible problem though. Are those pressure treated boards with the carriage bolts through them into the rafters? (they have a vaguely green color to them). Are the carriage bolts stainless steel or are they ordinary zinc coated (they do not look to be galvanized). If the boards are pressure treated and the bolts are ordinary zinc, then you will have a chemical reaction that will cause rapid corrosion. Here is a good link to a discussion of the issue:

Fighting Fastener Corrosion - Decking, Locksets And Hardware - Professional Deck Builder Magazine

Not trying to snipe at you, just trying to help you avoid a future problem (and one of my past mistakes :laughing.