Flail Mower Let's talk flail mowers

[AGTtactical]

Yes. I'll try to dig out a photo. Simple though. About 12" of 1/4 hose with SAE fittings and then adapters to get up to 1/2" quick connects on each end necessary to plug into the rear remote pairs when not hooked up to any implement. That way, if you forget and leave the remote lever in the on position or accidentally move the lever to on, the fluid has a place to go and doesn't "dead head". Dead heading a hydraulic circuit is bad for the pump and can cause very expensive damage that will not be covered under warranty.

Edit: photos show on the left most set of rear remotes there is a blind loop. The other rear remote is hooked up to the topping lift. When I use my backhoe I remove the blind loop and as soon as I disconnect the backhoe I reattach it. Of note, I have often forgotten to shut off the remote valve after disconnecting the backhoe. Lots of other things to be thinking about during that operation and as shutting off the valve involves moving from the back of the tractor to the operator station it sometimes gets forgotten. With the blind loop in place it doesn't matter at all.

Are you sure this is accurate? Considering how silly people can be some times, I thought it sounded strange that a manufacturer would sell remotes without the blind loop if they were going to have people destroying pumps without them. So, I asked my trusty Kubota mechanic about it...he says it is not true...at least on Kubotas. The each remote has a bypass which diverts fluid from the so called deadhead. The bypass serves the same function as a blind loop. So, sounds like blind loops are not needed...though I would certainly start using them if someone can provide proof that this is a real problem.

 

[TheFarmerInAdell]

Are you sure this is accurate? Considering how stupid people can be some times, I thought sounded strange that a manufacturer would sell remotes without the blind loop if they were going to have people destroying pumps without them. So, I asked my trusty Kubota mechanic about it...he says it is not true...at least on Kubotas. The system has a bypass which diverts fluid from the so called deadhead. The bypass serves the same function as a blind loop. So, sounds like blind loops are not needed...though I would certainly get some if someone can provide proof that this is a real problem.

What happens is you hit a pressure relief valve. Yes, it bypasses, but under full pressure. This puts a strain on the pump. If it is run constantly at full pressure you will shorten the life of your pump. If it happens occasionally for just a few moments then it will do little to no harm. You will also shorten the life of your hydraulic fluid by hitting the pressure relief valve. It does more harm to the fluid than the pump. It will also reduce your usable HP do to consuming some to run that circuit at full pressure. I feel blind loops are not necessary if you are aware of what a pressure relief valve sounds like and what your tractor sounds like when you hit that relief valve. If you're not aware and are occasionally clumsy then a blind loop wouldn't hurt.

 

[leonz]

So I did my second full mow with my tow behind flail. One from Betstco, 59 inch.
As an anecdote, muffler fell of it in about an hour of mowing. Of course, all nuts got lost in action, so I rummaged through my garage and found some. Was more of laughter, than real problem, hope that's the last one.
I let grass grow for 2 weeks, so for me, it was tall. I normally mowed every weekend before, as even my ZTR will choke on taller grass.
This thing does not care. It went through grass like it was not there. Also, because of wetland, it went through puddles and mud with the same attitude.
On upper, flattier of my property, mow is very nice. Looks like table.
On lower, very bumpy/hillocky tier, not so nice, as mower moves up and down with terrain. So it's a bit patchy, but still more than passable for wetland.
Overall, I am very pleased with it and am selling my ZTR. Also, saved me about 1.5 hr of mowing, as I went 8-10mph, while in ZTR, lower tier, I creep painfully maybe a mile or 2 per hr.
That's good news.
Bad news: it's all hard to maneuver, of course. I have couple very tight corners, so I could not go all the way to the fence or turn around, with SxS and mower length. So some patches left, and boarders, I had to comb with my 'ol faithful Craftsman riding mower, what added another 40 min to the job. Next, mower is thirsty. Gas tank lasts about 2 hrs. Though I could never tell how well it is filled as there is no gauge.
Actually, found that it was shipped with battery, connected it yesterday, it cranks and starts right away.
Another anecdotal part - there's lots of parts on the engine stamped Made in Japan.
So if you have large open field to mow, without crooked turns and tight spots - that thing rules. Or, harsh terrain, puddles, shrubs - same, it does not care, munches thorugh everything.

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Hello ukrkoz,

Is the Honda engine on your flail mower a GX340 or GX390??

I want to welcome you as the newest resident member of the "Flail Mower Nations". The more you use your flail mower the easier it will be to mow and it will take less time to mow. Please do not hesitate to ask questions no matter what they are as you are a new flail mower owner.


If at all possible when you have time would you be so kind as to provide us with pictures of the flail mower from all angles including the flail mower rotor, the drive belt(s)/slip clutch etc., and especially the wheels.

When ever I use my Lawn Genie Pick Up Flail Mower I always mow the areas where its tight to mow I use the lawn tractor first and blow the clippings out to where I can pick them up with the Lawn Genie when I need to mow with it.

 

[DavesTractor]

What happens is you hit a pressure relief valve. Yes, it bypasses, but under full pressure. This puts a strain on the pump. If it is run constantly at full pressure you will shorten the life of your pump. If it happens occasionally for just a few moments then it will do little to no harm. You will also shorten the life of your hydraulic fluid by hitting the pressure relief valve. It does more harm to the fluid than the pump. It will also reduce your usable HP do to consuming some to run that circuit at full pressure. I feel blind loops are not necessary if you are aware of what a pressure relief valve sounds like and what your tractor sounds like when you hit that relief valve. If you're not aware and are occasionally clumsy then a blind loop wouldn't hurt.

Great answer. I can only add in agreement with you that oil going past a relief is meant to be only momentary, like at the end of a curl or dump cycle on your loader. If it bypasses for any length of time a tremendous amount of heat is created. It damages the pump and can melt seals. It get's smoking hot pretty fast. The Kubota guy is technically correct in that it is not a true deadhead, but if he is implying that it is not a problem to flow all the oil over a PRV, then he is wrong. I suspect if he were answering himself he would agree with us.

My thought is that most guys that are savvy enough to use a loop hose are also savvy enough to know when the tractor is bypassing. A loop hose isn't needed, except as an extra layer of precaution.

Tractors, unlike a lot of things, can be broken pretty easy by an ignorant operator. They are for the most part not idiot proof.

Some backhoe attachments are basically looped into the system. When the backhoe is removed, the hoses need to be hooked back together to continue the flow. If not, you soon have a problem.

 

[AGTtactical]

What happens is you hit a pressure relief valve. Yes, it bypasses, but under full pressure. This puts a strain on the pump. If it is run constantly at full pressure you will shorten the life of your pump. If it happens occasionally for just a few moments then it will do little to no harm. You will also shorten the life of your hydraulic fluid by hitting the pressure relief valve. It does more harm to the fluid than the pump. It will also reduce your usable HP do to consuming some to run that circuit at full pressure. I feel blind loops are not necessary if you are aware of what a pressure relief valve sounds like and what your tractor sounds like when you hit that relief valve. If you're not aware and are occasionally clumsy then a blind loop wouldn't hurt.

Thanks guys...This all makes total sense. How long do you make your blind loop hoses? My wife uses the tractor sometimes...and I could see her grabbing the wrong lever for our three remotes. Any recommendations for where to buy good hoses premade for use as a blind loop for a Kubota? I have a hydraulic rake coming from Everything attachments. Maybe I should just order a spare hose for that and use as a blind loop...it would be longer, but then I always have a spare hose available if needed.

 

[leonz]

About hydraulic hoses,

The length of the hose needed for a blind loop depends on the hose manufacturer and the grade and thickness of rubber for the inner carcass and the outer carcass and the diameter of the steel cord used to make a two wire braid hose for medium pressure application.

The specific hose manufacture has a complete and extensive set of diagrams illustrating how their hoses of any diameter and length should be routed to prevent kinking, stretching or sagging which will cause the hydraulic hose to fail prematurely.

The hose will need two male couplers that must match exactly with the female ports on the remote on your tractor that will stay on the hose
ends and purchasing the male hose end covers will prevent any dust from getting attached to the mating surfaces of the hydraulic couplers.

It is always a good idea to wipe the fittings with a clean rag or shop towel to make sure that there is no fine dust in the crevices of the couplers mounted on the tractor.

I wish that these manufacturers would install the male coupler ends on the tractors and the female coupler ends on the implements hoses as there
is much less of a chance of a hose end popping off as you will know exactly when the couplers are properly mated and sealed.
It would be even better if they installed the hydraulic couplers that threaded on as it would prevent being sprayed with high pressure hydraulic oil
if the coupler becomes partially mated and seems to be locked in place.

I have seen this happen before at my old job as well when hydraulic hoses blow apart on the loaders we used and the high pressure oil blew
over every thing and if the operator was lucky he or she did not get an oil bath. We should have been using 4 braid hoses for the hoist and
retract circuits but they were not interested in upgrading the hoses of these machines.

My brother was almost killed by a hydraulic oil spray from a dirty coupler end on his tractors backhoe attachment when he thought it was
locked in the female coupler end.

This is why I always say its better to have the male coupler ends on the tractor as it is easier to see that the hose is properly connected and secure.

By having the female couplers on the implement you have the ability to see the entire female hose end as the female hose coupler ends are mounted close together on a steel plate on the tractor and the steel frame and fenders around the couplers partially obscures the coupling connections and unless you have a small flashlight its very hard to be sure the hose ends are completely connected and locked.

Its always best to drain the circuit of any pressure when the engine is off as the hoses will always have pressure in them when engine is running.

If your kubota dealer has a good hydraulic shop or hydraulic fitting bins they will have the adapters needed to match
the male hose ends for this hose to fit the male ends of the hose.

It is always a good idea to invest in male hose end covers to put on the hose as well to keep the hose ends free of any fine dust and dirt.

If you have hose end covers its always a good idea to wipe any oil off the fittings before you put the caps or plugs on as the oil will attract
fine dust like a magnet.

 

[TheFarmerInAdell]

Thanks guys...This all makes total sense. How long do you make your blind loop hoses? My wife uses the tractor sometimes...and I could see her grabbing the wrong lever for our three remotes. Any recommendations for where to buy good hoses premade for use as a blind loop for a Kubota? I have a hydraulic rake coming from Everything attachments. Maybe I should just order a spare hose for that and use as a blind loop...it would be longer, but then I always have a spare hose available if needed.

Long enough to not kink when making the loop, but short enough to not catch on anything when operating the tractor. If your remote fittings are close together it might help to put 45 degree adapters on the ends to help it loop. That's not necessary, though. Typically a farm store has pre-made hoses in different lengths with NPT ends. Just find the matching quick couplers for your tractor and add them to the ends of the hose. Type of hose and such has no bearing on length of hose. Not sure where that idea came from. A hose 1" long will have the same working pressure as a hose 1 mile long. Just make sure it has a working pressure of at least 3000 PSI and you're good to go. Typically you will find bend radius info from the hose manufacturer to make sure you don't bend it too tight, although it is tough to kink good hydraulic hoses by hand.

 

[aczlan]

Long enough to not kink when making the loop, but short enough to not catch on anything when operating the tractor. If your remote fittings are close together it might help to put 45 degree adapters on the ends to help it loop. That's not necessary, though. Typically a farm store has pre-made hoses in different lengths with NPT ends. Just find the matching quick couplers for your tractor and add them to the ends of the hose. Type of hose and such has no bearing on length of hose. Not sure where that idea came from. A hose 1" long will have the same working pressure as a hose 1 mile long. Just make sure it has a working pressure of at least 3000 PSI and you're good to go. Typically you will find bend radius info from the hose manufacturer to make sure you don't bend it too tight, although it is tough to kink good hydraulic hoses by hand.

This^

Aaron Z

 

[Jack Yuan]

It is VERY solid. Solid and heavy. Thick gauge steel, thick welds. Blades do not get hurt, they do indeed bounce off obstacles. 3 belts. It'll last.
Best priced I could find, otherwise, they start at $3K plus and go up higher. There'splenty of PTO driven ones, tow behinds are mostly in England.

Hi ukrkoz, is its belt tension tightened by one single spring which is nearly half inch diameter? Like this one?
According to the photos on their site, it looks like same belt tension system like this. This type belt tension system was proved not solid for years work. I think even Betstco didn't realize it, they started ATV flail mower sale not so long time. My suggestion is that you can buy some of that spring, clutch, belts in your stock.

I just want to know if that factory improved on this point. Thank you.

 

[ukrkoz]

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Hello ukrkoz,

Is the Honda engine on your flail mower a GX340 or GX390??

I want to welcome you as the newest resident member of the "Flail Mower Nations". The more you use your flail mower the easier it will be to mow and it will take less time to mow. Please do not hesitate to ask questions no matter what they are as you are a new flail mower owner.


If at all possible when you have time would you be so kind as to provide us with pictures of the flail mower from all angles including the flail mower rotor, the drive belt(s)/slip clutch etc., and especially the wheels.

When ever I use my Lawn Genie Pick Up Flail Mower I always mow the areas where its tight to mow I use the lawn tractor first and blow the clippings out to where I can pick them up with the Lawn Genie when I need to mow with it.

Flail Mower Nation? Where's that?


Here's mower I have:

PK-AT Gas Flail Mower |

scroll down you'll see pics from any angle. Hammers are regular Y shaped ones.
Engine is:
15 hp 420cc JiangDong electric start
But allegedly it is exactly same engine that is made in Honda engine factory in China and sold as Honda, just with another sticker. I can vouch to that as I have noticed "Made in Japan" components on it.

I finally got under the deck Sunday and cleaned it. Boy oh boy, was it dirty after mowing over wetland puddles!
I also took my angle grinder to hammers and sharpened them on the rotor, to best I could. took me maybe 30 min laying on the ground, no big deal.

I ALREADY know how much faster it mows for one simple reason. I took my 60'' Hustler ZTR for a quick spin on the grass, just to compare - and that's exactly when I realized, how SLOWLY it actually mows. Flail goes oh so much faster! And I was so proud of my ZTR.
I now need to figure, to plot, best mowing route, so that I do not get stuck in tight corners and forced to do 3 point turns. THAT is not quite easy with side by side and 81 inch wide mower combination.

I am also still experimenting with cutting height. My property lower tier is VERY uneven, bumpy, I have to be mindful of how I traverse bumps without flail grinding into the dirt.

Oh, and believe it or not. Ever since I started using flail, moles disappeared from the property. Before, I had hundreds of mounds killing mower blades. Now - I have maybe a few, and all on the outskirts. Now sure if they simply don't like the noise and vibration, but they are GONE. Hallelujah!

 

[ukrkoz]

Hi ukrkoz, is its belt tension tightened by one single spring which is nearly half inch diameter? Like this one? View attachment 603370View attachment 603371
According to the photos on their site, it looks like same belt tension system like this. This type belt tension system was proved not solid for years work. I think even Betstco didn't realize it, they started ATV flail mower sale not so long time. My suggestion is that you can buy some of that spring, clutch, belts in your stock.

I just want to know if that factory improved on this point. Thank you.

Mine has THREE belts but tension system is same, indeed. Roller is much wider to work with three belts.
It looks simple enough to be reliable but what I do NOT like is how much racket is produced when clutch engages. That does not sound reliable. I had many calls placed with BETSTCP teck, Jason, he saus it's normal. I might actually get a spare clutch for that exactly reason.

 

[powerscol]

Flail Mower Nation? Where's that? Its the fine group of folks here running flail motors of all types and brands and the sharing of knowledge both new and old. We all look down in pity those running other inferior mowers....Just kidding:thumbsup::cool2:

Leonz will be along shortly to correct me

 

[ukrkoz]

How dare you to mock the sacred? We, the Flail Mower Nation?

 

[troverman]

I bought this one here:

PK-AT Gas Flail Mower |

for $1600 plus tax. Should have offered less, they grabbed offer right away.

Those are imported from China and sold online for around $900 plus importing expense.

I mowed twice with it, yesterday being a long mow, around 2 hr.
It actually mows very well. I bought because of the wtland, I have to mow over puddles and mud pits. So I use SXS to pull it behind, as SXS does not care, goes anywhere.
I have 59 inch version. Not sure how wide it is with wheels.
Spoke with their tech, he swares it's same Honda engine, told me they charge him $45 to put HONDA sticker onto it, as it's made in the same factory Honda engines are.
Yes, it's a bit tight hard to turn and takes learning curve to figure how to properly pull it. I have severla tight spots in my property, around trees and fence corners, so I left that for my ol' faithful craftsman and trimmer.
But overall, it saved me about 2 hrs of mowing, as I can mow at high speed (7-8mph) and it leaves pull table smooth surface.
Goes very well over bumps in the property, I have **** for grading. My 60 '' ZTR takes 4.5 hr to do entire property with some trimming left. I did yesterday 80% of it in around 1 hr 40 min with flail.
2 things I really miss in it - gas gauge and remote shut down. You can install battery and it will crank engine with starter for you.
If you have long straight runs to mow and plenty of space to turn - that thing is great!

This is the biggest lie I've heard. China makes thousands of knockoff Honda small engines, but in no way shape or form does Honda allow exact clone engines to be built and "charges" for the Honda name on them. That's not how it works. If a company wants to use a Honda engine, they pay Honda's price for a genuine Honda engine which comes as standard with Honda badges, and Honda is responsible for the engine warranty. There are plenty of youtube videos out there of knockoff Chinese Honda engines being torn down, and unfortunately they are more often than not very poor quality inside. I absolutely detest the way Chinese companies boldly steal successful products and make clones which are inferior quality and sell them at a price which cannot be competed with. The Chinese government does precious little to protect patents, copyrights, and intellectual property as they want their domestic companies to succeed. Of course, we the public are fully complicit as more often than not we buy the cheaper comparable product. Stores are complicit as well marketing this junk under American sounding names at prices they are making a killing on. OK, rant over. I wish you the best with your new mower; what can I say...I've bought several Chinese "TITAN" branded flail mowers which have universally been junk.

 

[ukrkoz]

Back to flail mowers...
We all know that it is VERY common and makes financial sense to have a plant that manufacturers a device and then brands is variously for retailers. You have tons of examples in generators, mowers, small engines, etc.
Honda, Yamaha and other DO have engine plants in China. That's fact. Do those plants re brand their product for retailer? We do not know. That engine I have has "Made in Japan" components on it - fact.
So untill we KNOW - back to flail mowers discussion, as we, The Flail Mower Nation....

 

[hunt4570]

Back to flail mowers...
We all know that it is VERY common and makes financial sense to have a plant that manufacturers a device and then brands is variously for retailers. You have tons of examples in generators, mowers, small engines, etc.
Honda, Yamaha and other DO have engine plants in China. That's fact. Do those plants re brand their product for retailer? We do not know. That engine I have has "Made in Japan" components on it - fact.
So untill we KNOW - back to flail mowers discussion, as we, The Flail Mower Nation....

What doesn't?? Heck my Harley has Japanese parts on it..

 

[leonz]

Hello ukrkoz,

You have a different style clutch than what I have on my Lawn Genie.
My Lawn Genie has a Hilliard friction disc clutch system.

I believe what you have is a ball type grip type clutch that locks in
place when a certain rpm is reached.

The Hilliard clutch I use has a centrifugal brake pad type clutch that
engages when the 16 horse power Briggs & Stratton engine mounted
on it reaches 3,200 RPM at the crank shaft.

The speed of the flail mower rotor is less than the crank shaft speed as it is belt driven
by 4 inch identical pulleys with one V belt.


If at all possible check it with a high power flashlight for any fine dirt and if
you have an air compressor or vacuum remove the dirt from the clutch.
If you have a safety nozzle wand you can vacuum the dust up as it is blown out of the clutch assembly.

I am glad to hear from you that the moles are gone. Is your ground dry enough now to use your ztr and set the deck lower and push the clippings outward?

The two groove toothed V belt will last you a long time and in the off season you should remove it and put it in a plastic bag and seal it up to reduce the amount of ozone damage that occurs with V belts.

 

[Sid Post]

This is the biggest lie I've heard. China makes thousands of knockoff Honda small engines, but in no way shape or form does Honda allow exact clone engines to be built and "charges" for the Honda name on them. That's not how it works. If a company wants to use a Honda engine, they pay Honda's price for a genuine Honda engine which comes as standard with Honda badges, and Honda is responsible for the engine warranty. There are plenty of youtube videos out there of knockoff Chinese Honda engines being torn down, and unfortunately they are more often than not very poor quality inside. I absolutely detest the way Chinese companies boldly steal successful products and make clones which are inferior quality and sell them at a price which cannot be competed with. The Chinese government does precious little to protect patents, copyrights, and intellectual property as they want their domestic companies to succeed. Of course, we the public are fully complicit as more often than not we buy the cheaper comparable product. Stores are complicit as well marketing this junk under American sounding names at prices they are making a killing on. OK, rant over. I wish you the best with your new mower; what can I say...I've bought several Chinese "TITAN" branded flail mowers which have universally been junk.

Back to flail mowers...
We all know that it is VERY common and makes financial sense to have a plant that manufacturers a device and then brands is variously for retailers. You have tons of examples in generators, mowers, small engines, etc.
Honda, Yamaha and other DO have engine plants in China. That's fact. Do those plants re brand their product for retailer? We do not know. That engine I have has "Made in Japan" components on it - fact.
So untill we KNOW - back to flail mowers discussion, as we, The Flail Mower Nation....

China as a nation does not use BADGE ENGINEERING and to imply it does so is at best a miss-informed opinion. :2cents:

Yes, China is 'capable' of manufacturing good quality products but, are those what we typically see at our 'favorite' discount retailer? Patent, copyright, and intellectual property theft is real and the Chinese government does nothing I am aware of to stop it. All appearances are that it encourages it to bolster its own economy with NO REGARD to what it does to the rest of the world.

Could China make a flail mower the same quality as the various Italian companies at a cheaper price? Sure they could. Will they do so and who would buy it, especially compared with false specs for a seemingly similar machine at a lower price?

So yes, I just don't see myself buying a cheaper Chinese flail when Caroni is a known quantity and relatively close in price. I guess I'm lucky I have a tractor and don't need to worry about inferior gasoline powered pull-behind flails.

Best Regards,
Sid

 

[troverman]

I wasn't intending to insult ukrkoz in any way, nor the tow behind he bought. Like I said, I hope it works out well for him. I just wanted to point out that I am not aware of Honda allowing any "private label" branding of their engines. Honda has a well deserved reputation for it's high quality GX-series engines. And they cost more than even other comparable "name brand" engines such as Kohler or Briggs and Stratton. So it makes zero sense that a Chinese product which sells on cost, rather than quality, would spec a private-branded (but still very costly) Honda engine. Rather, I was just pointing out the high likelihood that the Chinese manufacturer has reverse-engineered a Honda engine and is building a clone, albeit a likely inferior quality one, at low cost. Japanese components don't mean anything, and many of the small Honda engines are not even made in Japan anymore.

As for a tow behind flail, I'd be surprised if it had adequate power to go through thick field grass. It's true all the engine's power goes to turning the drum and knives, but if it's 13HP that's not a lot. My B2920 Kubota with 21PTO HP (and a lot more torque) would sometimes struggle pulling a 4-foot Vrismo flail through tall, thick grass.

 

[Ford850]

Honda does have a joint venture in China with Jialing, and they do build the GX there for domestic China sales. I wouldn't be surprised if Jialing runs the line at higher speeds and fewer QC's on extra shifts for their own knock off sales (a common practice). Our GX engines (U.S. sales) come from Honda Thailand and not China.