Flail Mower Let's talk flail mowers

[Arc weld]

Arc weld, I'm curious about your claim of Mott being the first flail mower built? With Vrisimo currently celebrating 50 years in the flail mower business while talking about their owner (Mr. Vrisimo's) designing and development of flail mowers for orchard growers it raises question?? Just asking since Mott's existence seems to be shy of 50 years.

Also regarding your above statement and when shopping a couple years ago I found the Vrisimo mowers to be more substantial in build quality. Thicker shell and end plates, higher HP gearboxes, a single multi groove belt about 2-1/2 wide, larger diameter shafts/bearings and more overall weight running 980 pounds for a 74" mower. Also in regard to your information above I found Mott's current deck thickness on their super heavy duty flails are 10G top and 5/16 sides compared to Vrisimo at 3/16" top and 3/8" sides. I wouldn't say Mott mowers are unchanged unless they were 10G originally? I'm just sharing as this research is what caused me to opt for the Vrisimo mower.

Mott's were sold new to fit on Farmall cubs. There's a video of a belly mount 1958 Mott on a Farmall cub, there's another video of a 1963 Mott that has a US Army Corp of engineers tag. Lots of reference to Mott mowers on old IHC tractors which makes sense since Mott was an engineer at IHC when he developed the flail mower. IHC wasn't interested in marketing this new type of mower so the Mott Corporation was formed. The patented Y hammer knives self cleaning properties were tested in pig manure. I believe Mott was founded in the early 50's but original design was started in the late 40's. Mott's patents have expired and that explains why so many others are now using the tried and true Mott knife design. Everybody would be all over Alamo if their claims Mott invented the flail were false. Mott's have a 90HP gearbox and don't need a 2 1/2" belt to run them. They do use a special type of belt though. You don't hear of anybody complaining that Alamo flails don't hold up when they are rated for up to 1" grass and weeds which appears to be the same as the Vrismo. 50lbs is 5% difference in weight. The Vrismo has a larger area 3/16" deck and 3/8" sides so that's your extra 50lbs. How can everything else be heavier than an Alamo? 3/16" deck and 3/8" sides might be overkill just to claim they are heavier. The Alamo put extra weight in the cutter shaft which is 4 1/2" dia. and 3/8" wall. Mott's design is highly engineered and has stood the test of time and they are basically unchanged in over 40 years. Vrismo can't make the same claim. In a quick look Vrismo brochures don't even show the cutter shaft or blades arrangement. They show knife options which include the Y knives copied from Mott. Mott didn't copy anybody, they set the standard and look how many other flails have come along since.

 

[Thomabear]

Mott's were sold new to fit on Farmall cubs. There's a video of a belly mount 1958 Mott on a Farmall cub, there's another video of a 1963 Mott that has a US Army Corp of engineers tag. Lots of reference to Mott mowers on old IHC tractors which makes sense since Mott was an engineer at IHC when he developed the flail mower. IHC wasn't interested in marketing this new type of mower so the Mott Corporation was formed. The patented Y hammer knives self cleaning properties were tested in pig manure. I believe Mott was founded in the early 50's but original design was started in the late 40's. Mott's patents have expired and that explains why so many others are now using the tried and true Mott knife design. Everybody would be all over Alamo if their claims Mott invented the flail were false. Mott's have a 90HP gearbox and don't need a 2 1/2" belt to run them. They do use a special type of belt though. You don't hear of anybody complaining that Alamo flails don't hold up when they are rated for up to 1" grass and weeds which appears to be the same as the Vrismo. 50lbs is 5% difference in weight. The Vrismo has a larger area 3/16" deck and 3/8" sides so that's your extra 50lbs. How can everything else be heavier than an Alamo? 3/16" deck and 3/8" sides might be overkill just to claim they are heavier. The Alamo put extra weight in the cutter shaft which is 4 1/2" dia. and 3/8" wall. Mott's design is highly engineered and has stood the test of time and they are basically unchanged in over 40 years. Vrismo can't make the same claim. In a quick look Vrismo brochures don't even show the cutter shaft or blades arrangement. They show knife options which include the Y knives copied from Mott. Mott didn't copy anybody, they set the standard and look how many other flails have come along since.

While I can see and understand the history of your bias toward Mott I think it would be a stretch to say Mott or any other mower hasn't changed in 50 years. To say this is to say they use the same exact belt, bearings, gearbox, pto shaft and deck design supplied over 50 years ago? I wouldn't think this is possible for any of the above. For one thing Mott now uses a 70HP gearbox made in India. Was this the case 50 years ago? What about the reduction in deck thickness to 10G?


Generally speaking all flail mowers operate under the same principle so I guess it would be fair to say Mott still uses the same 50 year old principle. However, that principle would apply to all mfgs. who's product consists a set of duty specific knives on a drum, you spin it and voila. Yes, a flail mower... And yes, I do understand build quality and materials is what separates flail mowers, but to say a Mott is better quality than any other heavy duty flail mower of equal or better build is like saying Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge?? Who built the first one (especially over 50 years ago) has hardly any relevance.


Oh and BTW, 50 pounds doesn't seem significant until you try to lift 50 pounds..

 

[Arc weld]

You're biased because you bought a Vrismo. Mott's have had some changes over the years but the deck design, rotor design and drive system is unchanged. Compare a 1970's SHD Mott and a 2015 SHD Alamo and if they didn't have any identification , it would near impossible to tell them apart. I didn't say there weren't other good flails. Mott set the standard and is synonymous with the flail mower. It's the only product they built and they had very high standards. Mott invented a product that dozens of others tried to copy. Some copies were good, some weren't and Mott sued some of them like the Mathews Lawn Genie. Mott has stood the test of time which is about the best indicator of build quality there is. Mott used to always have a 90HP gearbox. Where'd you get the info on the Indian made gearboxes? I know from a dealer standpoint you didn't have to worry about warranty issues with a Mott. Any problems were usually due to operator inexperience or abuse like wrapping a chain around the rotor to get unstuck. That's just stupid on any flail mower. Other problems would be things like getting barbed wire or other foreign material wrapped around the rotor or hitting large rocks and hidden obstacles in tall grass. Another problem was encountered when operators tried to mow at lower than 540 RPM. This caused a weird phenomenon where the knives would actually stretch. The bend in the blade would actually move up the knife. I think there was a term for this but at first everybody was baffled. They did a bunch of tests and figured out what was causing it.

 

[whirly]

Just so we are all reading off the same page, here are the particulars of the original patent:

 

[Thomabear]

You're biased because you bought a Vrismo. Mott's have had some changes over the years but the deck design, rotor design and drive system is unchanged. Compare a 1970's SHD Mott and a 2015 SHD Alamo and if they didn't have any identification , it would near impossible to tell them apart. I didn't say there weren't other good flails. Mott set the standard and is synonymous with the flail mower. It's the only product they built and they had very high standards. Mott invented a product that dozens of others tried to copy. Some copies were good, some weren't and Mott sued some of them like the Mathews Lawn Genie. Mott has stood the test of time which is about the best indicator of build quality there is. Mott used to always have a 90HP gearbox. Where'd you get the info on the Indian made gearboxes? I know from a dealer standpoint you didn't have to worry about warranty issues with a Mott. Any problems were usually due to operator inexperience or abuse like wrapping a chain around the rotor to get unstuck. That's just stupid on any flail mower. Other problems would be things like getting barbed wire or other foreign material wrapped around the rotor or hitting large rocks and hidden obstacles in tall grass. Another problem was encountered when operators tried to mow at lower than 540 RPM. This caused a weird phenomenon where the knives would actually stretch. The bend in the blade would actually move up the knife. I think there was a term for this but at first everybody was baffled. They did a bunch of tests and figured out what was causing it.

Well since I've owned Alamo, Caroni and now Vrisimo it would be hard to claim I'm biased. I've been quite satisfied with all three. The problem with my Alamo was simply that it was a PITA to change knives and it was a rust magnet by its poor water holding design. My only issue with the Caroni was that it was more difficult to obtain metric parts that were over priced, and the gearbox leaked a little when hot. Otherwise it was an excellent mower. The cut quality was superior to the Alamo which left stripes on the ground. Maybe the steel knives were stretching. (insert roll eyes here) <<<

By comparison and based on my personal experience the Vrisimo is much quieter and completely vibration free due to the electronically balanced rotor. I still refuse to make a blanket statement that Vrisimo is the best nor will I buy into the nonsense that Alamo/Mott is. They are both excellent quality units that will get the job done and last a life time as Im sure many others will. To say Mott is the "must own" unit out there is hogwash and until you experience others your opinion is just that, an opinion... I will say this though, after having ran the Vrisimo through its paces converting several acres of woods into lawn for myself and others the only thing I replaced is one 1-9/16 roller bearing that was due to my laziness. One trip to the local bearing supply store and I purchased a new timken flange bearing that took about 5 minutes to change. Seasonal knife swaps take about 10 minutes a row as one rod will drop all the knives on that row. I actually had to bring my lunch to change the same bearings or knives on my Alamo and Caroni. Time is money to me so parts availability and ease of service is goal #1. Good quality helps..

 

[Arc weld]

Just so we are all reading off the same page, here are the particulars of the original patent:

View attachment 440821

View attachment 440822View attachment 440823

Thank you for that whirly. It also answers my question that Elmer Mott was the son that took over the company and was friends with my dad. Mott's have a dynamically balanced rotor like a drive shaft. If they're vibrating, something is not right. Knives missing, bad bearing, bent rotor from hitting a large object, etc. that would also explain why it would leave stripes. I know when I needed to get a bearing for a Mott, it used a Sealmaster which is considered a premium bearing. Mott uses individual knife hangers and the key to changing them quicker is using the special cotter pins with a flat side to go up against the hanger. Using standard cotter pins is a pain because you have stop them from turning. SHD Alamo's also use 1 15/16" bearings which are considerably beefier. I've always said there's other good flail mowers but Mott being the originator is the standard and they've stood the test of time longer than any others. That's got to be worth something.

 

[Poopdeck Pappy]

Arc weld, I really enjoyed reading the story about your dad. Thanks for sharing that with us.

 

[Arc weld]

Arc weld, I really enjoyed reading the story about your dad. Thanks for sharing that with us.

Thanks! He said Mott's were easy to sell after selling the first one. Even Mott's assembly instructions for the hyd. Interstaters were straight forward and easy to follow. A couple things I remember was that they specified to use Teflon tape on the pipe thread fittings and not paste. The other was a trick for installing or removing strong springs. Take a strong piece of rope like a starter rope and put it through the eye of the spring using both hands to stretch the spring. This works excellent, I've used this trick to remove hood springs on a truck and the little springs that hold the exhaust pipe on a dirt bike. Better than trying to use a vise grip.

 

[Thomabear]

Thank you for that whirly. It also answers my question that Elmer Mott was the son that took over the company and was friends with my dad. Mott's have a dynamically balanced rotor like a drive shaft. If they're vibrating, something is not right. Knives missing, bad bearing, bent rotor from hitting a large object, etc. that would also explain why it would leave stripes. I know when I needed to get a bearing for a Mott, it used a Sealmaster which is considered a premium bearing. Mott uses individual knife hangers and the key to changing them quicker is using the special cotter pins with a flat side to go up against the hanger. Using standard cotter pins is a pain because you have stop them from turning. SHD Alamo's also use 1 15/16" bearings which are considerably beefier. I've always said there's other good flail mowers but Mott being the originator is the standard and they've stood the test of time longer than any others. That's got to be worth something.

Just a little FYI that all heavy duty flail mowers use 1-15/16 and 2" rotor bearings which I totally agree are heavy duty. The 1-9/16 bearing I mentioned earlier was a roller bearing, not rotor. The roller bearing is a 2 bolt flange design and the rotor bearing is a 4 bolt flange design. Both slip off from the outside and can be replaced in just a few minutes without pulling the rotor or roller. Timken industrial bearings are USA (Ohio) made and one of the toughest industrial bearings you will find.
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[KenB2920]

Ok, I have a mott but am unsure the model. 193 blades or something like that. It's definitely not the heavy duty one. It's pretty rusted and needs a new roller bearing. With that said, it still cuts great even with the dull blades and is quieter than my ford 907. The pain part is the blades are bolted on and a pain to change.

You brought a lunch? Shhhoooooot, I have an overnight kit !!! Loooong time to change

The ford 907 works well but has no tension spring for the belt. This mower does work better under my 5240 than my 3540. Although it works better under more power, you still have to go sloooooow to get a decent cut. Now I did use the 907 in tough conditions and it worked great even though I broke a third of the blades and hangers

The 907 is beefier than my finish mott. (But it's finish not HD). Changing a whole set of blades is really easy and takes a half hour tops.

I've used TSO's 918H and by far that is heavier duty than both of mine. The blades are monstrous yet leave a great finish. I have still managed to bend and break some of them but still not bad to change. Much easier than my mott.

Now I have not used a mott alamo but have seen them. I can't wait to find one for a fair price and put it to work. They are beefy as well. It will be a good run with the ford. The 918h still has a trash door which I like. Mainly it makes it even easier to change the blades.

With my experience, the wisdom of others, Id like to sell both of mine and pick up an alamo. Then use that in a direct comparison to the ford.

Here is my opinion as I've cut enough acres with all of them to comfortably say:

The mott cut quality is the best but as grass gets thicker and taller the 918h starts to take over the best quality finish. The mott as grass get real thick it throws a lot of clipping to the front of the cutter and almost looks like a huge nest it has to chew up.

The 907 is the easiest and fasted blade change if doing a whole row or set. The 918h is best and fast if only swapping out a couple.

I can definitely out the 907 in rougher conditions than the Mott finish mower but of course no where near as beefy as the 918h

The Mott belt is easiest to change as well.

Arc weld: great story about your dad. This stuff is always good to read.


Oh yeah, this is my first year using a flail but as stated I've now cut lots and lots of acres with them all. Not hundreds, But enough to know.

 

[TSO]

Still happy with the cut quality on this 918H... It may be 50lbs or so lighter than the HD Mott, but it's still a nice unit. Needs new blades too...

 

[whirly]

Ok, I have a mott but am unsure the model. 193 blades or something like that. It's definitely not the heavy duty one. It's pretty rusted and needs a new roller bearing. With that said, it still cuts great even with the dull blades and is quieter than my ford 907. The pain part is the blades are bolted on and a pain to change.

You brought a lunch? Shhhoooooot, I have an overnight kit !!! Loooong time to change

The ford 907 works well but has no tension spring for the belt. This mower does work better under my 5240 than my 3540. Although it works better under more power, you still have to go sloooooow to get a decent cut. Now I did use the 907 in tough conditions and it worked great even though I broke a third of the blades and hangers

The 907 is beefier than my finish mott. (But it's finish not HD). Changing a whole set of blades is really easy and takes a half hour tops.

I've used TSO's 918H and by far that is heavier duty than both of mine. The blades are monstrous yet leave a great finish. I have still managed to bend and break some of them but still not bad to change. Much easier than my mott.

Now I have not used a mott alamo but have seen them. I can't wait to find one for a fair price and put it to work. They are beefy as well. It will be a good run with the ford. The 918h still has a trash door which I like. Mainly it makes it even easier to change the blades.

With my experience, the wisdom of others, Id like to sell both of mine and pick up an alamo. Then use that in a direct comparison to the ford.

Here is my opinion as I've cut enough acres with all of them to comfortably say:

The mott cut quality is the best but as grass gets thicker and taller the 918h starts to take over the best quality finish. The mott as grass get real thick it throws a lot of clipping to the front of the cutter and almost looks like a huge nest it has to chew up.

The 907 is the easiest and fasted blade change if doing a whole row or set. The 918h is best and fast if only swapping out a couple.

I can definitely out the 907 in rougher conditions than the Mott finish mower but of course no where near as beefy as the 918h

The Mott belt is easiest to change as well.

Arc weld: great story about your dad. This stuff is always good to read.


Oh yeah, this is my first year using a flail but as stated I've now cut lots and lots of acres with them all. Not hundreds, But enough to know.

You have a Utility Model 72 Mott with 92 Hangar stations and 184 blades. The knives should be attached with clevis & cotter pins not bolts. Although not easy to change they are much easier than the bolt/nut combo. If you have the flail at working height (like on a bench) you can change all the blades in about 3 hours with just a pair of needle nose pliers. I've done it twice now and the second time was a little quicker.

 

[Thomabear]

Still happy with the cut quality on this 918H... It may be 50lbs or so lighter than the HD Mott, but it's still a nice unit. Needs new blades too... <img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/files/attachments/441117-lets-talk-flail-mowers-forumrunner_20150918_192022-png"/>

Excellent job with the 918H. Your field looks great... I wouldn't worry too much about being told it was a lesser machine (because of 50# weight) than the Heavy Duty Mott. The same gentleman told me that since my Vrisimo was 50 pounds heavier than Mott it is wasted weight just to claim it was heavier. The weight of that complete awesomeness of a flail mower Mott must be right in that small sweet spot... Not to mention that it hasn't changed or required improvements in 50 years....
------> http://www.alamo-industrial.com/ProductManuals/Manuals/197_shd_flail_bltns_man_01-04.pdf

 

[KenB2920]

Still happy with the cut quality on this 918H... It may be 50lbs or so lighter than the HD Mott, but it's still a nice unit. Needs new blades too... <img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/files/attachments/441117-lets-talk-flail-mowers-forumrunner_20150918_192022-png"/>

Lol, I actually have your new blades in a box in the garage !!!! sorry for the delay

 

[KenB2920]

Still happy with the cut quality on this 918H... It may be 50lbs or so lighter than the HD Mott, but it's still a nice unit. Needs new blades too... <img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/files/attachments/441117-lets-talk-flail-mowers-forumrunner_20150918_192022-png"/>

Lol, I actually have your new blades in a box in the garage !!!! sorry for the delay

 

[KenB2920]

You have a Utility Model 72 Mott with 92 Hangar stations and 184 blades. The knives should be attached with clevis & cotter pins not bolts. Although not easy to change they are much easier than the bolt/nut combo. If you have the flail at working height (like on a bench) you can change all the blades in about 3 hours with just a pair of needle nose pliers. I've done it twice now and the second time was a little quicker. <img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/files/attachments/441123-lets-talk-flail-mowers-clevis-cotter-pins-jpg"/>

This is my mott

I wish is had cotter pins .... However, each one is bolted on. I had it at a very comfortable working level. Access was not the issue, just the process of removing them was a pain!!! And to this day, I've only taken 25% off because i know of I start it will be the rest of my evening and I won't finish.

 

[whirly]

View attachment 441137

This is my mott

I wish is had cotter pins .... However, each one is bolted on. I had it at a very comfortable working level. Access was not the issue, just the process of removing them was a pain!!! And to this day, I've only taken 25% off because i know of I start it will be the rest of my evening and I won't finish.

My mistake:ashamed:

 

[whirly]

View attachment 441137

This is my mott

I wish is had cotter pins .... However, each one is bolted on. I had it at a very comfortable working level. Access was not the issue, just the process of removing them was a pain!!! And to this day, I've only taken 25% off because i know of I start it will be the rest of my evening and I won't finish.

My mistake:ashamed:

 

[Arc weld]

It's an older model but can you show a picture of how the knives are attached? I'm wondering if someone changed it to nuts and bolts? Mott's take a while to change knives but if you don't use the special cotter pins with a flat side like Whirly posted, it is a royal PIA to keep the pin from turning. The flat sided cotter pins go against the hanger and you bend the long side of the cotter pin out about 30 deg's. Mott used to supply a simple tool for this with a box of knives but a pair of side cutters makes it really easy to do. I'm not sure if your model is the same as the later 72" Heavy Duty model with 2 1/2" cutter shaft but on those you could leave the knives off that are closest to the side plates of the mower so they don't rub on the side plates. You lose maybe a couple inches of cutting width is all.

 

[Arc weld]

I just got an e-mail from Alamo regarding the history of Mott flail mowers. When I have more time I'll try to get someone to post some early advertising for them as well as the patents. The patent for the first hammer knife mower was filed on Aug. 16, 1947 and officially patented on March 18, 1952. Mott Corporation was founded on Mar. 26, 1958. There's Mott's made for most of the early IHC tractors and Alamo also sent a link to other patents Carl Mott had with IHC. I didn't look too closely but think he may have invented the fast hitch. There's reference to a lift mechanism with a rock shaft and also a hyd. arrangement. There is also reference to a patent for tool less knife changing from 1971/72. Alamo has a restored 1950's Mott model 18 on display in their lobby. Pretty cool stuff and outstanding response provided by Alamo.