Is DEF that bad?

[pmsmechanic]

Nobody needs 400+HP.
Nobody

True... But it sure is nice and makes a vehicle a lot more fun to drive .

 

[wolc123]

Yes, even worse actually. Your way better off with an older tractor that didn’t need it. That’s the main thing that is keeping the prices way up on low-hour pre-emissions tractor’s.

 

[Hay Dude]

Yes, even worse actually. Your way better off with an older tractor that didn’t need it. That’s the main thing that is keeping the prices way up on low-hour pre-emissions tractor’s.

It’s crazy how all my equipment is worth more than I paid for it 5+ years ago.
However, it sucks on the other end and you need to buy something, it’s outrageous expensive.

 

[rockinbbar]

Yes, even worse actually. Your way better off with an older tractor that didn’t need it. That’s the main thing that is keeping the prices way up on low-hour pre-emissions tractor’s.

That's part of it.

Another reason is the huge taxpayer funded govt incentives for trading in older tractors that don't have DEF or DPF emissions systems.
Lots of people don't know it, but the govt subsidies on those older tractors can be worth much more than the tractor itself. (Remember the "Cash for Clunkers" program?)

The subsidies are administered per state.

https://www.epa.gov/dera/state

It would shock you how much you can get for an older tractor via taxpayer money. For example: a 2002 100 horsepower tractor is worth $90,127 under the program.

https://www.tceq.texas.gov/downloads/air-quality/terp/rebate/rebate-23-agricultural-tractors.pdf

 

[TimberFarm]

That's part of it.

Another reason is the huge taxpayer funded govt incentives for trading in older tractors that don't have DEF or DPF emissions systems.
Lots of people don't know it, but the govt subsidies on those older tractors can be worth much more than the tractor itself. (Remember the "Cash for Clunkers" program?)

The subsidies are administered per state.

https://www.epa.gov/dera/state

It would shock you how much you can get for an older tractor via taxpayer money. For example: a 2002 100 horsepower tractor is worth $90,127 under the program.

https://www.tceq.texas.gov/downloads/air-quality/terp/rebate/rebate-23-agricultural-tractors.pdf

I'd like to see what NC offers. I have an old tractor I would like to upgrade. I would be more than happy to unload if I could get a grant to buy a new one.

 

[5030]

It would shock you how much you can get for an older tractor via taxpayer money. For example: a 2002 100 horsepower tractor is worth $90,127 under the program.

I just read and downloaded the entire document and nowhere in it did it give the amount you posted. In fact it never stated any amounts at all.

I guess if I were to believe you and sitting on two Pre 4, actually T3 Interim tractors that are both factory rated at 87 horsepower and a 1997 Ford 7.3 diesel pickup truck with NO emissions on it what so ever, I could cash in to the tune of about 240,000 bucks.

I don't believe it but I will check it out with people that actually know.

Problem with that is, I'd have to replace them with the troublesome T4 junk and in my case have to use DEF as well.

Both my Pre 3 tractors are of 2002 vintage FYI and neither one gives me any trouble either.

 

[ning]

your body has hlmultiple ways of removing that soot whereas the chemicals absorb and cause DNA changes faster.

I also doubt that the burn-off is purely co2, but the whole reason that sub-2.5um particulates are so bad is that they penetrate deep into the lungs and cause significant irritation and the lungs can not easily get rid of the ultra fine particles. Some of them are so fine that they actually get absorbed directly into the blood as well.

DPFs do very good work.
Once again, DEF is an entirely separate system than the DPF+regen, though your truck during regen is still pumping DEF which I'm sure contributes to that stink as well.

Like it or not, the internal combustion engine sucks, it's terribly inefficient and seriously dirty in every way. I don't know that we have a better system in EVs right now but that doesn't mean your (and my) precious diesels are faultless.

 

[rockinbbar]

It would shock you how much you can get for an older tractor via taxpayer money. For example: a 2002 100 horsepower tractor is worth $90,127 under the program.

I just read and downloaded the entire document and nowhere in it did it give the amount you posted. In fact it never stated any amounts at all.

I guess if I were to believe you and sitting on two Pre 4, actually T3 Interim tractors that are both factory rated at 87 horsepower and a 1997 Ford 7.3 diesel pickup truck with NO emissions on it what so ever, I could cash in to the tune of about 240,000 bucks.

I don't believe it but I will check it out with people that actually know.

Problem with that is, I'd have to replace them with the troublesome T4 junk and in my case have to use DEF as well.

Both my Pre 3 tractors are of 2002 vintage FYI and neither one gives me any trouble either.

You know, I don't know who you are, but I'm beginning to get a bit tired of you calling me a liar.

First it was over freezing point of DEF. Now you are calling me a liar about mentioning govt programs providing grants to trade in old diesel equipment.

It's really not my fault you are too stupid to open the pdf file I attached for the amounts you say aren't there. But they are there... I'll take a picture so you don't have to bother following the link provided earlier. Here ya go, from the link I posted:

Here's that link again, in case you care to try it yourself. https://www.tceq.texas.gov/downloads/air-quality/terp/rebate/rebate-23-agricultural-tractors.pdf

Frankly, I don't GAF whether you believe me or not. Don't care what your state applications are to the federal program either. I just posted some facts and backed them up with some pretty simple links so that anyone who cares to, can check into that, or at least see that the govt is incentivizing getting rid of older diesels. Your state may vary, but the federal program has existed for years, and I have a good friend who got a nice, new Case 105hp cab tractor from it when he traded his old, broke down POS in under the program.

Do us both a favor and in my future posts, please know in advance, they weren't in any way intended for you.

Have a nice day.

 

[workinonit]

It would shock you how much you can get for an older tractor via taxpayer money. For example: a 2002 100 horsepower tractor is worth $90,127 under the program.

I just read and downloaded the entire document and nowhere in it did it give the amount you posted. In fact it never stated any amounts at all.

I guess if I were to believe you and sitting on two Pre 4, actually T3 Interim tractors that are both factory rated at 87 horsepower and a 1997 Ford 7.3 diesel pickup truck with NO emissions on it what so ever, I could cash in to the tune of about 240,000 bucks.

I don't believe it but I will check it out with people that actually know.

Problem with that is, I'd have to replace them with the troublesome T4 junk and in my case have to use DEF as well.

Both my Pre 3 tractors are of 2002 vintage FYI and neither one gives me any trouble either.

Not sure where you came up with $240K. Your 87 HP tractors aren't worth as much as the higher HP. Depending on what year yours are they would be worth south of $100K together in this program. Unless they are older than 2003.

 

[Atypical_decorum]

I also doubt that the burn-off is purely co2, but the whole reason that sub-2.5um particulates are so bad is that they penetrate deep into the lungs and cause significant irritation and the lungs can not easily get rid of the ultra fine particles. Some of them are so fine that they actually get absorbed directly into the blood as well.

DPFs do very good work.
Once again, DEF is an entirely separate system than the DPF+regen, though your truck during regen is still pumping DEF which I'm sure contributes to that stink as well.

Like it or not, the internal combustion engine sucks, it's terribly inefficient and seriously dirty in every way. I don't know that we have a better system in EVs right now but that doesn't mean your (and my) precious diesels are faultless.

You keep saying deep into the lungs. You don't exchange that much air "deep into the lungs" unless you're really huffin and puffin. And mucus nor cillia don't care what the um is of the particle. They move out bacteria and viruses the same way.

If you were chronically dehydrated sitting behind an exhaust stack belching black smoke for years while you were breathing deeply and you had had already or were concurrently frying your goblet cells and cilia because you're also a smoker, then yes, you would be correct. However, chemical vapor don't work the same way. It 100% goes to wherever the air travels to and is absorbed into the cells to cause DNA damage.

In the event that soot particulate gets lodged in a cell, the immune system will try to gobble it up or the cell will try to push it out. If the cell survives and the two former things failed, the damage the particulate causes is what can cause the cell to act a fool.

There's a few other ways, but I'm not explaining them to you. Go get your own medical degrees.

EV is likely worse. Look up lithium mines and its battery production pollution. Look up the few economical methods of charging that junk. How do they produce that power?

Finally, what carcinogens come out of the the infallible burn cycle you're touting as the it's saving grace/what's the ash particulate size?