HST vs. Gear Drive
- Thread starter jas67
- Start date
- Views: 47701
plastikosmd
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2006
- Messages
- 1,154
"I doubt many hardcore sports car drivers would agree with that. "
Well you are wrong in in my case. Maybe you meant "nostalgic sports car drivers" or missunderstood the way the car works. Think of it as an automatic and a manual car without a clutch, you pick the mode. It still can be a "manual" car, that shifts in less than 0.1 seconds, the "clutch" is just no longer a pedal on the floor...but in the sequential shift transmission.
But you are correct...there are fewer and fewer clutchs that ya gotta push with your foot...and the only thing worse than a clutch is a brake...there is no power going to the ground with a depressed clutch. Your statement regarding RPM has nothing to do with the "curve," you should be picking the right gear. If you are talking about trying to match your engine RPM to the drivetrain (for example reving it on a downshift) that is necessary if you are limited by your gears, or maybe you are driving an 18 wheeler! Flick your finger and you are in the right gear, RPM in the right range for your power and you will blow by someone having to clutch, with 8 to choose from I'm not over/under reved. Anyway..I dont want to detract from the OP topic....maybe this will help....
"Ferrari first introducted "clutchless manuals" with the F1 gearbox. It is, as the name indicates, a Formula 1 derived gearbox. Maserati and Aston Martin also use the technology, and Audi just developed a similar gearbox with dual clutches called the DSG.
SMG uses an electro-hydraulic clutch paired with a standard manual gearbox (Getrag six speed for the M3, I believe a 7-speed for the M5). Shifts are accomplished using paddles behind the steering wheel. Different shift speeds can be set (S1 to S6), with the fastest speeds being somewhere around 80 milliseconds. The upside is there's no clutch pedal, and shifts are far faster than a human can shift."
Well you are wrong in in my case. Maybe you meant "nostalgic sports car drivers" or missunderstood the way the car works. Think of it as an automatic and a manual car without a clutch, you pick the mode. It still can be a "manual" car, that shifts in less than 0.1 seconds, the "clutch" is just no longer a pedal on the floor...but in the sequential shift transmission.
But you are correct...there are fewer and fewer clutchs that ya gotta push with your foot...and the only thing worse than a clutch is a brake...there is no power going to the ground with a depressed clutch. Your statement regarding RPM has nothing to do with the "curve," you should be picking the right gear. If you are talking about trying to match your engine RPM to the drivetrain (for example reving it on a downshift) that is necessary if you are limited by your gears, or maybe you are driving an 18 wheeler! Flick your finger and you are in the right gear, RPM in the right range for your power and you will blow by someone having to clutch, with 8 to choose from I'm not over/under reved. Anyway..I dont want to detract from the OP topic....maybe this will help....
"Ferrari first introducted "clutchless manuals" with the F1 gearbox. It is, as the name indicates, a Formula 1 derived gearbox. Maserati and Aston Martin also use the technology, and Audi just developed a similar gearbox with dual clutches called the DSG.
SMG uses an electro-hydraulic clutch paired with a standard manual gearbox (Getrag six speed for the M3, I believe a 7-speed for the M5). Shifts are accomplished using paddles behind the steering wheel. Different shift speeds can be set (S1 to S6), with the fastest speeds being somewhere around 80 milliseconds. The upside is there's no clutch pedal, and shifts are far faster than a human can shift."
OP
jas67
Platinum Member
Minotbob said:
LOL!!!!
I did this already, when I bought my G1800-S. Problem is that I have probably used that card up for a while; then a nice G1900-S with PTO and three point (my G1800-S doesn't have those options) turned up for only a few hundred $ more, and I had to pass it up. In fact, I did it again, I just picked up a three-point post hole digger on Friday.
jas67
Egon
Epic Contributor
Lets not get carried away by the HST! You know its not a proven product.
N80
Super Member
plastikosmd said:
You're probably right, but maybe I should have said 'nostalgic sports car racers'.
And if I'm not mistaken, the heel-and-toe technique is used to maintain engine rpm while shifting and braking in a turn. I guess if these new systems shift fast enough the engine loses no RPM in the turn, and I'm sure that's true for a Formula 1 car. Not so sure if it would be true for a Mitsubishi tuner.
And with such high tech systems the line is blurred a bit if you have control over which gear the car goes in and when. I suppose some might say that the clutch is what makes the car a manual, others might say its the ability to select exactly what gear you want it in and when. Other's might say it is the mechanical integrity of the drive line. One of my biggest complaints with typical viscous coupled automatics (including CVTs, one of which I own) is the torque converter lag. I hate it. I'd assume that high end 'automatic' sports cars have this ironed out? I rode in an automatic RX-7 that a friend of mine bought for his wife and it was a fine car with plenty of power,but the lag between the time you punched the accelerator and when the torque converter locked up was maddening. But that was 10 years ago. I'm assuming things are better now.
Egon
Epic Contributor
You just gotta check out some of the new Tractor transmissions.
Paddle shift seems to do okay on on the Indy circuit!
Paddle shift seems to do okay on on the Indy circuit!
N80
Super Member
Egon said:You just gotta check out some of the new Tractor transmissions.
Paddle shift seems to do okay on on the Indy circuit!
I think my L4400 could tear up the Indy circuit. Literally.
It is interesting to me to see how things have changed even in the sports car world, which I assumed would be the holdout for manual transmissions. The new Nissan GT-R....which by all accounts appears to be a world beater has one of these incredible and incredibly complex hybrid gear boxes, as do BMW M5 sedans.
Oddly, Porsche seems to be the holdout. The top of the line 911 ($190,000) retains a 6 speed manual. But it seems like Porsche has always be a bit anachronistic.
In any case Egon, don't give 'them' any ideas. I have no doubt that if Kubota hears there's interest in a paddle shift B series....they'll make one and someone will just have to have it to mow their lawn.
Soundguy said:
Chris, you did contradict yourself on this one. You listed the gear as more durable, yet you personally have seen clutches burned up in 30 minutes! And the exact word used was "reliable", not durable.
Durability or reliability is a function of mean time to failure. Economical is a function of cost to repair. You should recognize that! You do realize that the guts of an HST are just a couple pumps, right? Much less complex that a gear transmission with fewer parts. (Not counting the new e-hydro or whatever it's called. I don't know what's under there!)
You also should know that there are no "rubber" parts in the HST to wear out. The variable displacement pump is hardened metal pistons in hardened metal bores. Very little to fail. And they are protected by a relief valve. You got any relief valve equivalent in a gear transmission to save it when you snag a root or buried cement block? I've busted teeth off plowing into a chunk of snit buried under the earth, that wouldn't have happened with an HST. The clutch is EXPECTED to wear out in a gear tractor every 2000-4000 hours with the minimums down to 30 minutes as you noted. The clutch in an HST is expected to last the life of the tractor. What's more durable? As far as cost, last time I checked it was about the same to cheaper to replace the guts on a hst than gear transmission. That's a VERY variable situation, so who knows what the cost is today, but it's probably still about the same.
I ferget who posted that hst are only on small tractors, but what about the 5yd articulating 30,000 pound payloaders? Does the hst in them not count or what?
Still, when you step back from the minutia, 95+% of "gentlemen ranchers" will never have to perform repairs on either. So, does it really matter?
jb
jas67 said:
That's the real advantage of HST - let's you concentrate on the work at hand vice the tractor. For what you are doing - reliability is likely not an issue. Besides - with regular fluid and filter maintainance - the HST will last a good long time (and probably longer than a clutch in the hands of an infrequent/weekend user).
Joe
N80
Super Member
john_bud said:
John, I gotta disagree on that oneand think you are distorting Chris's point. There is a world of difference between someone destroying something and its durability or reliability. I personally don't think reliability or even durability are a function of abuse, stupidity or negligence. An HST might be easier for a novice to use without damage but that hardly makes the mechanics of it more durable in regard to what it was designed for. And it seems pretty clear that someone who could do what Chris described could probably also make short work of an HST as well. One could argue that the HST is made to take the abuse of the ignorant better than a manual, and I'd concede that point, but not that HST is more durable than manuals on the whole.
plastikosmd
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2006
- Messages
- 1,154
porsche has been offering their Tiptronic transmission (no manual clutch) in the 911 for a while..and at least in 07, maybe before the "automatic" is faster than the "manual." It shifts so fast that the turbo(s) stay under load so there is less power loss. This year it has been futher refined..and still faster than manual...read up on it at Porsche...
"Porsche developed this gearshift principle for racing no less than 25 years ago. It features two parallel clutches to eliminate any interruption in power delivery and eliminates even the slightest break between gears. Porsche factory drivers benefiting from this technology were able to accelerate faster than their competitors and keep both hands on the wheel while shifting gears, thus avoiding even the slightest distraction. This pioneering achievement from Porsche’s racing efforts now gives the new 911 Carrera and Carrera S even better performance. The Carrera equipped with PDK covers 0-60 mph in 4.5 seconds and the Carrera S reaches the same speed in 4.3 which is 0.2 seconds faster than with a manual six-speed gearbox."
Porsche Cars North America - Press releases - About Porsche - Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG
"Porsche developed this gearshift principle for racing no less than 25 years ago. It features two parallel clutches to eliminate any interruption in power delivery and eliminates even the slightest break between gears. Porsche factory drivers benefiting from this technology were able to accelerate faster than their competitors and keep both hands on the wheel while shifting gears, thus avoiding even the slightest distraction. This pioneering achievement from Porsche’s racing efforts now gives the new 911 Carrera and Carrera S even better performance. The Carrera equipped with PDK covers 0-60 mph in 4.5 seconds and the Carrera S reaches the same speed in 4.3 which is 0.2 seconds faster than with a manual six-speed gearbox."
Porsche Cars North America - Press releases - About Porsche - Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG
N80
Super Member
I saw that. I just wonder why they don't offer it on the fastest and most expensive one (the GT2)? There must be some folks with a lot of money that remain happy with a manual gear box. They're probably the type that are all show and no go.
plastikosmd
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2006
- Messages
- 1,154
probably, and if you are payin that much you can have whatever your heart desires. for me, an automatic car for the wife with the allowance of a no clutch manual gearbox for me and my HST 3320..
Soundguy
Old Timer
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2002
- Messages
- 52,424
- Location
- Central florida
- Tractor
- RK 55HC,ym1700, NH7610S, Ford 8N, 2N, NAA, 660, 850 x2, 541, 950, 941D, 951, 2000, 3000, 4000, 4600, 5000, 740, IH 'C' 'H', CUB, John Deere 'B', allis 'G', case VAC
No contradiction there.... unless you have a narrow 'head in the sand' type of view..
Anyone can damage any equipment if used wrong. I can take a die grinder to a brand new anvil and ruin it in a few minutes.. even if it was a real good anvil.
I'd wager that same operator that can burn up a clutch in a gear tractor in a short time period could do some good damage to that HST tractor too.. I imagine constant relief valve passing oil would probably make something mad after a few hours..
soundguy
Anyone can damage any equipment if used wrong. I can take a die grinder to a brand new anvil and ruin it in a few minutes.. even if it was a real good anvil.
I'd wager that same operator that can burn up a clutch in a gear tractor in a short time period could do some good damage to that HST tractor too.. I imagine constant relief valve passing oil would probably make something mad after a few hours..
soundguy
john_bud said:
oldmech
Gold Member
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2006
- Messages
- 468
- Location
- Quebec
- Tractor
- Two Gravely Two L One with 10 h.p Dek-Diesel engine one Grillo 107d and one BCS 735 diesel
Hi! Kubota HST are very good and are the best for FEL works. BUT HST tractor take more fuel for make the same work. BECAUSE with variable hydro pump-valve and control to hydro motor drive you have lost 5 to 10% WHEN NEW. So With A Very used Hydro-tranny the lost can to go to 20%. A very used Hydro pump lost oil pressure and deliver less power at Hydro motor drive. With Gears and good clutch The lost about 2% do not change New or used.
On very used tractor I prefer Gear Less expensive to repair. Thanks and Good luck! Oldmech
On very used tractor I prefer Gear Less expensive to repair. Thanks and Good luck! Oldmech
Soundguy
Old Timer
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2002
- Messages
- 52,424
- Location
- Central florida
- Tractor
- RK 55HC,ym1700, NH7610S, Ford 8N, 2N, NAA, 660, 850 x2, 541, 950, 941D, 951, 2000, 3000, 4000, 4600, 5000, 740, IH 'C' 'H', CUB, John Deere 'B', allis 'G', case VAC
hey now.. don't be trying to confuse this opinion based issue with facts now.. you hear...
soundguy
soundguy
N80
Super Member
plastikosmd said:probably, and if you are payin that much you can have whatever your heart desires. for me, an automatic car for the wife with the allowance of a no clutch manual gearbox for me and my HST 3320..
Yep, and that's what it usually boils down to, personal preference. I love a manual transmission. I like feeling in control. I like having the vehicle do exactly what I want it to do, when I want it to and how I want it to and not what it thinks I want it to. I'm only just now warming up to antilock brakes and I don't give a nit for traction control even though my wife loves it on her car with CVT and all wheel drive. Makes her feel very safe and secure in rain and the occasional snow.
I've always been someone who enjoyed the act of driving (preferrably off road) and not just being driven. So the appeal of automatics and HSTs has always been lost on me. My Ford F150 is a fine vehicle and performs its tasks well but I don't look forward to driving it because it is an automatic with no manual available. I think it is sad that you can't find many manual vehicles anymore and that if you want something that approximates the control of a simple 5 or 6 speed manual gearbox you have to pay for an expensive, complicated, computer controlled thing. I think it is great that Porsche gives you the choice. I wish this extended to basic trucks and cars.
I'm now driving that 8 year old Maxima. My son will take it to school in a few years but until then I'm driving it mainly to save gas over the F150. But the thing is, I enjoy driving it. Look forward to driving to work! The manual is fun and of course the 2000 Maxima is bland looking car with quite a bit of power and excellent handling (accoroding to all the car rags anyway). I love puching the accelerator and not having to wait for the torque converter to lock up!
I also love the precision with which I can operate my L4400 using the clutch. There might be a learing curve, but to me, its worth it.
Nice thing is, there's something for everyone.
And there are still plenty of folks out there that will tell you that an LP has better sound than a CD when all the tech data says otherwise.
Egon
Epic Contributor
And hey; you gotta remember that if the system fails on a railway track you can always drive it off if you have a geared transmission.
Of course there are not too many four speed geared transmissions around in newish tractors anymore! Wonder why? Have the manufacturing companies pulled their head from the sand?? Or???
You also gotta remember anything else than a three or four speed straight geared tractor transmission has not stood up to the test of time!
Of course there are not too many four speed geared transmissions around in newish tractors anymore!
Wonder why? Have the manufacturing companies pulled their head from the sand?? Or???You also gotta remember anything else than a three or four speed straight geared tractor transmission has not stood up to the test of time!
Soundguy
Old Timer
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2002
- Messages
- 52,424
- Location
- Central florida
- Tractor
- RK 55HC,ym1700, NH7610S, Ford 8N, 2N, NAA, 660, 850 x2, 541, 950, 941D, 951, 2000, 3000, 4000, 4600, 5000, 740, IH 'C' 'H', CUB, John Deere 'B', allis 'G', case VAC
Maybee in your frozen little town?!?
The 'ford' tranny in my NH 7610s is a 4spd with a hi/lo range shifter. it's essentially the same tranny back from 1965... That ford tranny was one of the more robust designs ford came out with.. a tough old crashbox. Virtually identical trans in my ford 5000 as that 7610s..
Nothing other than 3/4 spds have stood up? Guess all those still running 5 and 8 spd in fords don't exist then right? I got 3 nice shifting 5spds in my barn..
soundguy
The 'ford' tranny in my NH 7610s is a 4spd with a hi/lo range shifter. it's essentially the same tranny back from 1965... That ford tranny was one of the more robust designs ford came out with.. a tough old crashbox. Virtually identical trans in my ford 5000 as that 7610s..
Nothing other than 3/4 spds have stood up? Guess all those still running 5 and 8 spd in fords don't exist then right? I got 3 nice shifting 5spds in my barn..
soundguy
Egon said:And hey; you gotta remember that if the system fails on a railway track you can always drive it off if you have a geared transmission.
Of course there are not too many four speed geared transmissions around in newish tractors anymore!
You also gotta remember anything else than a three or four speed straight geared tractor transmission has not stood up to the test of time!
