HST vs. Gear Drive

[Egon]

shifting gears and the knowledge of how to properly isn't one of them.

Really!

Perhaps give us some instructions on proper gear shifting for tractors!

 

[jas67]

I guess the main thing that most novices don't know about gear tractors is that most of them are not syncronized, and you can't shift while moving. I only knew this fact, because I borrowed my brother's JD 970 (very nice Tractor BTW, even thought it isn't oranage) several years back, and he warned me of that fact.

I would agree with HST being a convenience, but if you use a three point snowblower on the back, HST is much better IMHO. First of all, you can keep the blower going at full speed while changing tractor speed to deal with different depths of snow (drifts). An, in the case of a tractor with only two speed ranges, those two speeds are probably too slow, and too fast for given snow conditions.

At this point, it really doesn't matter, as the HST tractor has already been sold - I didn't have a chance anyway, it sold before the owner even got a chance to reply to my email asking to come see/drive it.

 

[Soundguy]

Really!

Perhaps give us some instructions on proper gear shifting for tractors!

Too many people use the clutch as a speed control device.

I've seen a person take out the clutch on a piece of new equipment in 30 minutes.

soundguy

 

[The Gardener]

If a choice/decision must be made between gear or HST, I would use this as my compass.

"Constant" repetitive motion = HST

Where the line gets a bit gray is how much time passes between each repetition. For example, if I am mowing 300 yard strips of lawn with a simple turn around at each end, I'd opt for gear unless the HST also included cruise control.

I have done our 4+ acre cut with both transmissions. The HST did not include cruise control on the model I borrowed. I sure felt my ankle by the end of that ordeal using the HST whereas the gear transmission on this type of long run acts like cruise control.

The BEST of all scenarios is HST with cruise control. You cannot beat that combination since it covers all possibilities.

:Gardener

 

[Egon]

I've seen a person take out the clutch on a piece of new equipment in 30 minutes.

Golly, that sure isn't much time is it?

Might be time to set up a clutch operators school ?

 

[N80]

Golly, that sure isn't much time is it?

Might be time to set up a clutch operators school ?

Egon, you haven't seen too many newbies operate a tractor have you? It's more than just clutching. They also have a tendency to get timing wrong and grind gears a bit. But probably the worst thing, other than damaging the clutch is improper gear selection, especially trying to do a task in too high a gear and constantly lugging the engine or running it at too low an rpm.

 

[Egon]

gear tractors is that most of them are not synchronized, and you can't shift while moving.

Check out some of the newer larger model gear tractors to see how their transmissions operate. It's a big difference from the older gearbox tractor shifting.

 

[The Gardener]

I believe the new GST is operated w/o a clutch on the L39. Others who know more can confirm. If I read this correctly, it [almost] sounds like a hand operated, HST tranny.

: The Gardener

 

[JOHNTHOMAS]

HST VS GEAR DRIVE specifically on a B CUT. That's the question. I bought a new truck a few years ago. Wanted cheapest they had. 5 Speed. I like driving a 5 speed but driving all the time I prefer the auto. Couldn't sell the truck until I sold it to a family member. They also soon tired of it and had a tough time selling it. Finally traded it to a dealer on another vehicle. Resell on cars, trucks and CUT's will always be better with automatics which means more of your money back if you decide to sell or trade. Not saying no one will buy the geared ones but most people want the auto. Someone hunting the least expensive will buy the least expensive one which is the geared one and they will be hunting for a bargain which is usually not best for the seller. Yes, I know there are those hot rodders like me that want a Vintage Corvette to be a 4 speed but that's not the masses of buyers. Ask your dealer. People that think they will do their own repairs and expect something to break will look toward gears. Most of us know that when it stops we'll call someone to come fix it. Convenient and ease of use is what most of us buy. Anyone believe the gear drive is easier to use on a CUT? From one end of a field to the other all day probably won't matter. That's probably rarely the reason for someone to purchase a CUT. I now have an L and BX and F but would not buy any of them in gear drive. Talked to Kubota regional rep a couple of weeks ago and he indicated that I'm the average Kubota buyer. Acreage yard owners that want better than a disposable mower and can afford it and also want small tractor capability. So a mechanic will mostly be thinking about repairs. A trader and 60 year old like me will look toward resale and ease of use. I currently own three Kubotas and have bought 6 Kubotas in 4 years. Sold and traded 3 of them in the last 2 months. I keep hunting for that perfect tractor for my needs with perfect amount of power, size and ease of use. For ease of use for me = HST. For resale=HST. How many people traded a gear for a HST and want to go back to the gear? Again, most things tear up in time and with use. I expect that. Don't like it but expect it. When it does I'll try simple repairs but transmission goes out I'm calling someone and believe most people are like me in that situation. Extra cost for repair, I expect that for something that is more technical and easier to use. I've heard the Model T was an easy to repair vehicle and fairly reliable but I don't want one.

 

[Egon]

You surely didn't have to shift gears on the Model T!

 

[N80]

Resell on cars, trucks and CUT's will always be better with automatics which means more of your money back if you decide to sell or trade.

Well, not exactly. First, this works two ways. I recently bought a 2000 Nissan Maxima with 65,000 miles on it (that's about 8000 miles per year!). One owner, all service done in one place. Literally looks brand new. But its a manual. (Which is what I wanted and was looking for...it will blow an automatic away). Did that lower the selling price? You betcha! I got an amazing deal on this car. So you may not get as much back when selling, but you save on the front end when buying. This is true of new and used. A manual vehicle is typically less than an 'automatic', especially in the tractor world. And since I hate automatics of any sort, this Maxima and my L4400 saved me more on the front than anything I'll likely lose when I sell them.

Second, it is not always true that automatics hold their value better. My B-I-L is like me and does not like automatics. He was looking for a certain type of Dodge diesel pick up a few years ago. He wanted a manual. Apparently so did a lot of other people and surely they made fewer manuals. He paid top dollar for it and had to get from half way across the country.

And third, not everyone in the world wants or needs to spend the money for HST. I have no doubt I could easily sell my tractor and get a large portion of what I paid for it back right now. How do I know? Just watching the used market. But then again, the L4400 is not a lawn mower either.

 

[Builder]

I bet the reason your BIL paid more for a manual behind a Cummins is because the Dodge automatics were know to be pretty much junk and easily destroyed by the torque of a Cummins diesel, escpecially when turned-up a little.

In general, automatic-anything brings more at trade in than manual. Of all the bigger trucks I've owned, those with Allison automatics have better trade-in value than those with Spicer or Eaton mid range manuals. Reason is they lead to easier driving and less training time for employees. Powershift backhoes bring higher resale than the basic transmissions.

I think the same would hold true for the average landscaper, rancher or estate owner-there's a shorter learning curve with HST or auto than a manual tractor or truck.

One disadvantage I think has been overlooked in this topic is that it generally takes more HP to power an HST over a gear tractor. Therefore, PTO HP is lowered compared to a gear tractor because of some parasitic loss in the drivetrain.

 

[N80]

I bet the reason your BIL paid more for a manual behind a Cummins is because the Dodge automatics were know to be pretty much junk and easily destroyed by the torque of a Cummins diesel, escpecially when turned-up a little.

Could be. I wasn't speculating on the reason. I was just pointing out that in some cases, however rare they may be and for whatever reason, some buyers pay and some vehicles attract higher prices as manuals.

In general, automatic-anything brings more at trade in than manual.

Sports cars probably still represent a glaring exception, but even that may be changing in the effeminate US market. I suspect the average German and Italian sports car enthusiasts still prefer a manual.......and no rear view mirror.

I think the same would hold true for the average landscaper, rancher or estate owner-there's a shorter learning curve with HST or auto than a manual tractor or truck.

Yep. Many factors make them more popular and retain their value better. But again, you pay more on the front end, so back end resale gains can come out in the wash. So I'm not sure resale value should be much of a factor when deciding on HST or not. Resale value is a percentage of the purchase price.

One disadvantage I think has been overlooked in this topic is that it generally takes more HP to power an HST over a gear tractor. Therefore, PTO HP is lowered compared to a gear tractor because of some parasitic loss in the drivetrain.

Very true. And when I was buying that weighed heavily in my decision making, maybe more than it should have, but maybe not. But its more complicated than that if you have a budget. Because if you have enough money for a 45 hp manual then your aren't deciding on a 45 hp manual vs a 45 hp HST you'll be deciding on a 45 hp manual vs a 35 hp HST. So the hp loss per dollar is much larger than the fairly small amount of hp lost due to the HST mechanics.

 

[JOHNTHOMAS]

I don't think the amount of lose of HP is 45 to 35 on HST. Believe your shooting way high on that. I don't know of any CUT which is what the question was about that has 45HP or even 35HP. B7800 is 30 and looks like loss per their specs is about 2 less pto HP with HSD on their B models that even have gears vs HSD. I know we're not talking about L's but the specs on my L3240HST has 25pto hp and geared L3240 has 26.5pto hp. That's 1 and one half more hp at the PTO with Gears. This info is from my Kubota sales brochures for models I own or owned. My BX2350 only comes in HSD so won't give it. The German and Italian sports car owner you mentioned. I've owned 2 seater sports cars since 1970. 3 SL Mercedes and all 3 were automatics. It would be a rarity to find a SL since 1970 that's not an automatic. Currently own two Cadillac Allantes that were designed by Pininfarina (Ferrari) and assembled at their plant in Italy them shipped back on planes to Detroit for engine and drivetrain assembly. From 1987 thru 1993 and I believe they are all automatics. Do those count as German and Italian sports cars? Had a couple Corvettes and both were automatics. Wish the 1967 Coupe had been straight shift and glad 1977 was auto. I like straight transmissions on cars and trucks but I won't buy another one because I want to move on to something else in a year or few years. Don't want geared tractor if I keep it forever or sell it in a couple of weeks. That's my choice and the majority of buyers feel the same. There are exceptions to the rule, always have been always will be. I'm not referring to that odd individual. I'm referring to the majority of todays buyers effeminate or not. They are still the ones laying down the money and buying the products. Most Corvettes sold are automatics. Most Mercedes Benz sold are automatics. Not sure about Ferrari or Lamborgini. But again there are more Honda Accords sold than all the sports cars put together and most of them are automatics. The majority. I also do not agree with your statement that the reduced price paid when new is reflected greater at the resale end. I believe that you will receive a greater percentage of return on an automatic of purchase price than on a gear drive. More people are buying the used automatic than the used geared. Bargain hunters are buying the least expensive machine they can find and they are working the purchase to the lowest dollar. Bargain hunters (of which I am one) are the minority not the majority. But I won't buy a bargain that I can't resale and get most of my money back or make a profit. I've bought 6 Kubotas in the last 4 years and currently own 3 of them. If I was going to just mow long fields then if someone gave me a gear drive Kubota I would take it. If I was offered a free geared Kubota for my current purposes and required to use it I would decline the offer. That's the opinion of one almost 61 year old man that doesn't farm and never has. I'm the typical Kubota buyer that has an acreage yard and wants something better than a riding mower but not a hugh field tractor. My L is really bigger than I need. Glad it's an HST for the day I go back to trade it for a B7800 or B3030.

 

[jas67]

I know on the B7100 and B7200 that the PTO power is spec'd at 1 HP less for the HST models vs. the Gear models, which at 16HP (B7100) or 17HP (B7200) is about 7%.

 

[jas67]

I am definitely in that bargin hunter category. I have a 1 acre property, and only about 2/3 an acre of actual grass to cut, and do that with a 4-wheel-steered G1800, which is way better suited for cutting my grass than a SCUT or CUT,as I have a lot of things to go around. I bought the B7100 mainly because of a lot of landscaping work to be done due to building my garage this past year. I wanted a small tractor with a front end loader that I could get my money back out of when I'm done with the project. The geared B7100 that I bought for $4600 w/ B-219 loader fit the bill. Too bad the B7200 HST w/ loader and a mower deck showed up for $5000 less than a month later (if it had been forsale when I bought the geared B7100, you can probably guess which one I would have purchased).

Now, as for the B7100, I don't really want to sell it when I'm done with this years landscaping project, as it will be handy as **** to have every year for the spring mulch distribution around the hard, and I'm thinking about a 6' back blade to clear the average 1-4" snowfalls we get from my 260' of driveway (not all one long drive, but a loop from one side of the front yard to the other, and then over to my extra garage). My wife, however wants it to be sold when we are done with these projects

I think I can convince her to keep it until next year, as the new portion of the driveway in front of the new (detached) garage is gravel, and I'm going to do that with turf-stone next year, so I can justify keeping in around at least for that project.

jas67

 

[plastikosmd]

regarding automatic sports cars....since i am the new owner of one...it only comes as an 'automatic' but has as much control as any standard (note this car has 8 foreward gears)

1) automatic...what you are use to
2) sport mode...higher rev allowance between shifts, faster shifts, longer time in the gear for power
3)sedate/weather mode---pretty much the opposite of above


after this...there are 3 ways to shift
1)typical automatic
2) manual mode using gearshift...slam up for upshift, down for downshift..sorta like a dragster
3)paddle shift on column

more and more of the cars we were looking at for 'sport' reasons were coming this way...very nice..and not a US made car

 

[Wombat125]

I don't think the amount of lose of HP is 45 to 35 on HST. Believe your shooting way high on that.

I don't want to speak for N80, but I believe he was talking about a buyer's budget allowing for a 45 hp gear or a 35 hp hst, due to the hst costing more. I don't believe he was talking about the small hst parasitic loss.

Apologies to all if this is not correct.

 

[Tom_H]

Wow.. there are monumental opinions on what is 'better'.. or the differences in gear vs hst. search some of the forums.. like owning / operating.

In short.. if you are doing lots of loader work.. or work around lots of obstacles.. HST may serve you better.

If all you do is mow an open field or pull a disc / plow all day.. then gear may be more efficient at getting hp to the ground.

soundguy

In this very first reply, Soundguy hit the nail right on the head. HST is great when mowing around a tree; back and forth on the pedal while steering back and forth makes it a snap to get the MMM skirt all around the edge of a tree. Loader work is fast too.

When I try to rip dry clay with the subsoiler, I wish I had a direct drive super low pulling gear. This is the only major drawback I can think of with the HST.

 

[N80]

regarding automatic sports cars....since i am the new owner of one...it only comes as an 'automatic' but has as much control as any standard (note this car has 8 foreward gears)

I doubt many hardcore sports car drivers would agree with that. Not that that is anything I have much knowledge of, but I have a partner who has 3 Porches. Two are older 944s. He races those two, as an amateur. You'd have a hard time convincing him of that. I think he engages in a lot of fancy footwork keeping the rpms up in a curve that would be hard to do without a clutch.

Although it appears on TV that the latest Formula 1 cars don't have clutches. Could be wrong.