House generator questions...second thoughts on whole house system.

[MGH PA]

So when we build our house two years ago, we had full intentions of putting in a whole house backup system in the future. As such, we installed two Generac Automatic Transfer Switches (to carry the two 200A panels). We have an all electric house (minus the gas fireplace) with Geothermal heating and cooling (with electric strip backup). We live in a rural area, but not in the middle of nowhere. I even purchased a 500gal propane tank and buried it last fall with anticipation of a future generator. Long story, short, since living here for two years, we have only lost power twice, and ironically, it was in the last month and a half. It was inconvenient, but I'm starting to question whether I want to invest the $8000 I was quoted to install a Generac 24kw system. I get the convenience issue, but it comes at a premium.

I'm not an electrician, but I got to thinking...could a portable unit be setup to work with my ATS? I don't need an auto start generator, I would still be fine going out and firing the generator up myself, but since I already have about $600 into the automatic transfer switches, I would like to utilize them if I can. I understand in this situation, I wouldn't be able to run my geothermal system, but if I can power some lights, the well pump, and the freezer/fridge, it might be ok in the off chance that we lose power.

Am I nuts? I already am 1/2-3/4 of the way setup for a whole home system, so part of me also thinks I should finish it out, but it's hard to justify the $$ the more I think about it.

 

[Have tractor did travel]

We're located rurally, as well. I'm planning whole house, but using a portable 8500 watt generator (Harbor Freight), gas, for power supply. I got such a large generator, not because we needed it, but because I got a great buy thereon. We'll limit the power draw from the house, simply by turning off heat, A/C, etc. so as not to overload the generator.
That generator will require physically starting it (battery or rope pull), and as we learn more about power losses here, we may not even keep the generator in close proximity to the panels. In the past 1-1/2 years, we've lost power 6 times, but never for more than 4-5 hours. We can live with that. If it were to go on for 16 hours (or so), I'd haul the generator from the barn and set it up.
So from explaining what we're doing, please conclude I think you're not "nuts". Seems the $8K is throwing good money after bad. Pull that tank from the ground and sell it - take the money and buy a portable generator, and the balance to the bank.

 

[woody]

We use my Miller welder as a back up generator, no auto start but it is not just sitting there I do use it for welding sometimes. I leave it in the shop and back feed my panel to the house but I don't try to power everything in the house. I use my gas logs for back up heat. the longest we've had to run it was a week and we have been here about 18 years.

 

[Oaktree]

I got to thinking...could a portable unit be setup to work with my ATS? I don't need an auto start generator, I would still be fine going out and firing the generator up myself, but since I already have about $600 into the automatic transfer switches, I would like to utilize them if I can.

I think it would depend on the switch, and what controls it. Some (mostly the more expensive ones) have the control circuitry internal to the switch, others it's basically just a big contactor and the control logic is in the generator (many/most of the box store ones are this way). Is there a way to manually activate your switch? Keep in mind that a portable generator most likely won't be able to power the whole house, and you'll need to turn off breakers for non-essential circuits to prevent overloading it.

I personally have no need for a whole-house unit that runs continuously when the power is out but I have a propane cookstove & HW heater, woodstove for heat and a gravity-feed well, so I really only need a generator to keep the refrigerator & freezer cold and only need to run it a couple hours a day. We're perfectly content to read a book by flashlight for entertainment in a power outage (and they tend to be rather infrequent here). YMMV.

 

[groundcover]

We don't lose power too often either but have had some extended outages due to ice storms.
I have a lock out on the 200 amp panel in the house and supply that from detached garage,
most often run the Lincoln welder. I have a flex pipe on the muffler that I run through a plate in the window.
I have a big Honda inverter that I have run overnight and a 6K diesel if all that goes bad. Back to the "one is none, two is one "way of thinking.
Friend of mine asked me the other day if I knew anyone that wanted a diesel whole house generator.
Like asking a alcoholic if they would like a drink !
It's a 20KW with automatic transfer switch, full 275 gal diesel tank, 850hrs ,Deere diesel, just fully serviced. Has been under a covered deck so it's very clean. I need to find a support group so I can look away !
New owners at the house and they didn't like the noise or smell and put in a new
LP rig further away. Had generator contractor come to price out the move, waiting on that .

 

[gary49]

You can transfer and retransfer the load manually with the lever that comes with the transfer switch(s). I believe the Generac transfer switches will automatically retransfer when the utility power returns, but you will still need to shut off the portable generator manually. You’ll need to add a power inlet receptacle to the transfer switches. I believe I’ve seen an ad for an electric start portable generator with a wireless control via a cellphone, don’t remember what it was, google is your friend.

 

[workinonit]

Yes you can do what you are thinking of doing. That's pretty much what I do with my PTO generator. If I were you I would procure a large enough generator to run your entire house on the off chance you lose power for some longer period of time. I would install one or two Appleton 100 amp recepticles and have the plugs on the gen end to plug in when you need to. When power goes out here I back my gen and tractor into my shop, connect the 100 amp plug and fire up the gen. When power is restored the transfer switch operates and I go out and reverse everything. I have a small LED in my kitchen that I connected to the top of the meter base so I would know for sure when normal power is restored.

 

[ponytug]

I am happy with a candle or kerosene lamp, but work from home has kind of changed things for us.

Upfront: I would do the math on how much power you need for your generator, and I would look at your meter during some cold days in January to see what your peak load is. I would then check to see how the house is wired, to see what you would give up if you only backup one panel. Finally, remember that the 500 gallon propane tank won't supply a large generator and won't supply your 24kW for that long either.

Until recently, we happily ran our propane heated home happily off of a 5k Yanmar clone generator. We keep diesel around for the tractor, so it is always fresh. Setup involved wheeling it out and setting the appropriate switches. After some early equipment failures, it has been great. Well, except for one thing; noise. Unless you get a Honda EU series or a PowerHorse quiet inverter generator, portable generators are loud. I had it connected at some distance from the house, where I could hear it and see it, but away from buildings, in case it burned up, which happens to all generators, but especially portable gasoline generators.

Why recently? We upgraded. We do lose power, and the frequency of the interruptions has been increasing over the years, which suggests poor management or maintenance by the utility, or evolving conditions that they aren't on top of. Either way, it isn't looking to get better anytime soon. So we added battery backup to our existing solar system. Works like a charm, so far. We will see how many kWh we can get off our solar system on a cloudy day in late December. In the meantime, we are 100% solar, 100% of the time, able to run our fifty year old AC, and electric dryer.

My neighbor went the other way and installed a 22kW Generac. After more than a few issues in the beginning where the installer ignored the factory specifications (!!!), she is very happy now. The only way she knows that there has been an outage is a message in her phone.

Lots of solutions out there and they all work.

All the best,

Peter

 

[Cat385B]

Your necessities are 100% electric. If you can afford it, install the big system. One prolonged outage will convince you. You’ve set it up to worry free for weeks if necessary. I’d take advantage of that if I could.

 

[LouNY]

A site with some good information and a simple chart for fuel consumption of propane generators.
CES | Backup Generators | Combined Energy Services

So a full 250 gallon tank would be good for 3-4 days possibly 5 for many people, rationing the run hours would lengthen that considerably.

 

[oosik]

I'm very fortunate. I belong to a rural electrical co-op. Been out here 40+ years. The VERY longest power outage - 28 hours. I think there has been 2 or 3 outages beyond 4 hours. But never beyond 8 hours. This is over the entire 40+ year span.

I have a 3K portable Honda generator. Never even considered using it during an outage. I use it to power my tools when I'm out and about on the property.

The co-op is very aggressive on system maintenance - and it's record reflects this.

PLUS - we have one of the lowest electric rates in the country.

Inland Power & Light.

 

[ponytug]

@oosik Lucky you!

We have a convicted felon for a power company, and they are on track for reconviction for recidivism. Sigh. Why do some people/companies try so hard not do the right thing?

All the best,

Peter

 

[oosik]

It's quite upsetting/unfortunate to read that so many find the need for a backup system. The only time I even think about my electricity - when the utility fellows come out, 2x annually, to check my long service run.

 

[Root Cause]

Also preparing to build a home and have been through the same thought process.
I too, had difficulty spending for a Generac even though it sounds great.

I just bought a 12,500 Watt Westinghouse, dual fuel portable for less than 1k. It has a remote start and that will be handy after it is set up in bad weather.

My current setup is to shut off the main switch at the box and flip 'ON' a breaker to power the entire panel from the genny after I have turned off the non-critical items.


A Westinghouse auto-transfer box can be had for $200, the genny is wired for it, but that requires pre-connecting the critical things beforehand. For someone who needed CPAP or something critical, that might be an option.

I most likely will add a smaller, quieter inverter to power electronics during short or extended outages if I find out we have frequent outages in the new location.

 

[EddieWalker]

I'm still a long ways away from committing to anything, but my thinking is that I'm only going to buy the minimum that I need to survive comfortably, but not worry about powering everything. I also have two 200 amp panels that are on different sides of my house. Natural gas is available, but not connected to my house yet.

Number one for me is going with a super reliable brand. I don't believe Honda make a natural gas generator, so I'll have to find something of that caliber.

For the last 7 years, I've managed with a small Honda 2200 generator. It powers the TV, the internet, a few lights and charges our phones. It's not enough to power the heaters in the water tanks for our livestock, and that's really what I'm needing more then anything else. The house is heated with wood.

My thinking is that I'll run lines through my walls to where I need power from the generator, and install outlets that are only good when the generator is on. When I lose power, I'll just plug into those outlets. Kind of a cleaner approach then the extension cords that I use now. I plan to somehow label or mark, or do something to show that they are for the generator in case I'm not home if we lose power, or somebody doesn't try to use them when the power is on. To me, this should be pretty basic.

The advantage to a portable generator is the cost, and ease of replacing it if I need to.

Before I buy, I'll do a load chart to figure out what I absolutely need to power, and then decide on the generator after that. Until then, we've done pretty good off of the little Honda.

 

[ericm979]

My current setup is to shut off the main switch at the box and flip 'ON' a breaker to power the entire panel from the genny after I have turned off the non-critical items.

You can get a generator interlock for many modern panels that will ensure that whoever operates the generator turns off the main breaker to the PoCo before the generator breaker is switched on.

 

[LouNY]

I have my 25 KW PTO generator, it works well for over 25 years.
I wish it had an hour meter on it, some years it hasn't had only maybe an hours use other years it's been in use for 10+ days continuous.
I can fuel up a tractor while it's still running. When I was using my old Oliver 1550 I actually put a running oil level mark on the dipstick.
During that outage my mother was on O2 and hospice care, it was just a bit over ten days and the Oliver got shut down one time for about 10 minutes during the entire outage. That tractor used just a bit over a gallon of fuel per hour, now much of the time I expect that it was only actually generating 2500 to 3000 watts although at times it was at much higher when the cookstove and washer and dryer were running. It is enough generator that my household runs completely normal on the generator the power is actually a bit smoother then the utility is (National Grid).

 

[shooterdon]

I was doing fine backfeeding a large Honda gas generator for years. I decided to install an automatic whole house LP Generac. Why???

Power companies are reducing maintenance and tree trimming to save money. We will be getting more outages.

I am getting older. Firing up and hooking up a generator normally occurs during bad weather.

My fiancé does not feel comfortable hooking up or setting up.

Gas units need gas. So I needed to store a lot of fuel on site or be able to get gas during a long outage. Gas goes bad so I was having to cycle through it every year.

The chart on fuel usage is deceiving. Your unit will not run at 100% during an outage.

For short outages (half dozen or so in the last 18 months) we let the unit run on auto. None have lasted more than 4 hours. But if we were looking at a long term outage, we would cycle the unit for an hour every 4-5 hours or so during the day, and turn it off at night. So it may run 4 hours a day. At 1.5 gal/hr that is 6 gal/day. We have a minimum of 500 gal LP (2 -500 gal tanks) at all times. We can go over two months if need be...but we heat with wood.

For a short outage of 4 hours it costs us $10 to do nothing. If the unit runs all day the cost is $60. The whole house unit is easy to shut down and start up so cycling is not a PITA when we want to save fuel. NG is a lot cheaper if you have it.

Factor in your age, the abilities of your wife (if you are not there) to see what solution works for you. Also your lifestyle. If you travel and have an outage, do you have someone to take care of things? In our case, if we are away and get a one week outage, it would cost us $400 but that is better than losing a freezer of food

 

[ultrarunner]

It comes as a surprise to some the cost to operate a whole house unit and in suburbia noise ordinances have sparked some battles when the only person with a generator runs 24/7 and everyone hears it.

My little Honda 5000 is quiet enough but when power is out as many as 5 households plugged in for refrigeration mostly...

I'm never home when it happens so Genset in garage of 95 year old neighbor who keeps a log book, fuel, extension cords... etc.

 

[Jchonline]

The first step is to decide what you absolutely need in an outage. Then figure out loads for those devices, and how they are supplied. If you need something wired into the panel my advice is to have a licensed electrician do it. As far as that chart above, my answer is to minimize loads during an outage and size the generator appropriately. Already know what you will be turning off (make a nice list). A manual start and transfer is probably fine, but make sure you test it monthly to be sure it still works.

I like to be very conservative with electricity as it is, so most of my opinions are based on this.