Generator wiring

[grsthegreat]

a good interlock for that siemens panel the OP is using, would snap onto and lock into the breakers. but they do make a cheap butterfly interlock that is held inplace with the panel cover. but that kind tends to fall out or get misalligned.

 

[MossRoad]

...Does anyone understand common sense logic?...

Sure. But we also understand brain farts, to put it bluntly. It happens to all of us sooner or later.

Eventually, most of us forget a simple sequence of operation in our lives. Something that we've done many times for years. We all know someone who has locked their keys in their car or house. Or left a sink or bathtub running. Or forgot to turn the oven on. Or the stove off.

Kinda like we hear about old guys that have been farming forever and roll their tractor or get their body caught in a PTO, seems like several times per year.

I'm with you on it being a simple, logical, step-by-step process, that, if followed correctly, yields the desired result without injury. I've done it myself. However, it's not something I'd encourage anyone else to do.

Especially with the very simple and effective (and legal) options out there today, like what I've pictured below.

My mother in-law has a similar setup in her house. She used it for the first time in about 10 years a few weeks ago. It's brilliant! Simple elegance. Her neighbor constructed it for her out of scrap plastic.

You can't energize the generator power without turning off the street power first. Likewise, you can't energize the street power without disconnecting the generator power first. I think it cost less than $10 for him to make it.

Anyhow, that's the way we're going at our place. Simple. Cheap. Effective. Legal. Peace of mind.

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

Good post Moss.
Here's something everyone should be concerned with much more dangerous than the possibility of accidentally turning main breaker on with generator running, connected and power grid live (who does that? We could not...it's not possible).
It's legal! There's no inspection violation and it's actually encouraged and embraced (and I bet there are those here who imbibe!).
Anyone here consume alcohol? It's a poison you know. Smoke or use tobacco products...ever? Eat a poor diet? Fast food? Lack of exercise? (Sitting is the new smoking they say).
Not to mention "legal" (and illegal) drugs and obesity...
These are legal things much more dangerous than shock hazard from the proper use of a generator.

According to the CDC: (Causes of death in US per year).
Heart disease: 696,962
Cancer: 602,350
COVID-19: 350,831
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 200,955
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 160,264
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 152,657
Alzheimer’s disease: 134,242
Diabetes: 102,188
Influenza and pneumonia: 53,544
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 52,547

These are things to be concerned about.

 

[DaBear3428]

I'll reply to DaBear's three posts.
WHAT CODE VIOLATION AM I COMMITING?
Send me a PM, I'll send you my information, the name and number of my power company and/or county inspection department and you can report me, making a fool of yourself!
Explain to the audience my code violation(s)?

It is a NEC requirement to have a interlock to prevent a back feed of the utility system from a generator unless it is ul listed for such use.

I will provide you with the code reference when I'm back in my office. Not my intention to be the hall monitor but you are encouraging people to do something that is unsafe and a code violation.
After looking at the rest of the posts grsthegreat provided one a few posts back.

 

[grsthegreat]

Loud, Wrong and positive to the end.

oh well, im not the electrical police. to each their own. i hope the OP can wade thru this digression and make sense of it.

now out to go clean the horse waterers.

 

[DaBear3428]

Looking at your photos, that looks fairly typical. Just not neat and tidy.

People are under the impression that there's no disconnect in there. I think there is.

Can you post a picture of the breaker labels?

I'd guess there's something in that setup somewhere that prevents applying street power and generator power to those breakers in the generator panel at the same time.

Pictures of the labeled panels would help quit a bit.

You may be correct and it may have an I terconnect but I can see enough in the photo for me to advise the op to have a competent electrican look at it. Or clean it up as he stated he wanted done.

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

It is a NEC requirement to have a interlock to prevent a back feed of the utility system from a generator unless it is ul listed for such use.

I will provide you with the code reference when I'm back in my office. Not my intention to be the hall monitor but you are encouraging people to do something that is unsafe and a code violation.

"you are encouraging people to do something that is unsafe and a code violation."
I encourage you to seek psychiatric assistance...no offense intended!
What I encouraged was for tree grower to have a professional electrician fix his problem. You disagree with that???!!!
Post 20 I said what I do...no encouragement whatsoever. People agreed even posting this exception: in times of emergency.
Moss posted a great idea of a simple secure lockout mechanism so main breaker cannot be turned on unless generator breaker is turned off.
Yea...I got muh genrater hooked up all 'tha time ready 'tha start-er up!
Yea...dream on. I must water our horses now also.

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

Loud, Wrong and positive to the end.

oh well, im not the electrical police. to each their own. i hope the OP can wade thru this digression and make sense of it.

now out to go clean the horse waterers.

And what do you do...encourage the OP to "wade thru this digression and make sense of it." without services of a qualified electrician. Nice...very nice.

 

[DaBear3428]

"you are encouraging people to do something that is unsafe and a code violation."
I encourage you to seek psychiatric assistance...no offense intended!
What I encouraged was for tree grower to have a professional electrician fix his problem. You disagree with that???!!!
Post 20 I said what I do...no encouragement whatsoever. People agreed even posting this exception: in times of emergency.
Moss posted a great idea of a simple secure lockout mechanism so main breaker cannot be turned on unless generator breaker is turned off.
Yea...I got muh genrater hooked up all 'tha time ready 'tha start-er up!
Yea...dream on. I must water our horses now also.

Well good luck with the horses and I will get right on the psychiatric assistance no offense taken.

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

You may be correct and it may have an I terconnect but I can see enough in the photo for me to advise the op to have a competent electrican look at it. Or clean it up as he stated he wanted done.

^^^Yes! Electrician look at it! My suggestion exactly!

 

[grsthegreat]

And what do you do...encourage the OP to "wade thru this digression and make sense of it." without services of a qualified electrician. Nice...very nice.

You inow, sorry, but your nuts. I never said he should do anything. He asked what he should do to the panel, i told him whats there is ugly, but legal IF he adds an interlock. His panel might already have an interlock, but there are no pictures of the cover. Im personally sick and tired of you trying to justify your ideas on what is proper.

The law doesnt say one has to clean their chimney to prevent a fire. But only an idiot doesnt.

 

[MossRoad]

Good post Moss.
Here's something everyone should be concerned with much more dangerous than the possibility of accidentally turning main breaker on with generator running, connected and power grid live (who does that? We could not...it's not possible).
It's legal! There's no inspection violation and it's actually encouraged and embraced (and I bet there are those here who imbibe!).
Anyone here consume alcohol? It's a poison you know. Smoke or use tobacco products...ever? Eat a poor diet? Fast food? Lack of exercise? (Sitting is the new smoking they say).
Not to mention "legal" (and illegal) drugs and obesity...
These are legal things much more dangerous than shock hazard from the proper use of a generator.

According to the CDC: (Causes of death in US per year).
Heart disease: 696,962
Cancer: 602,350
COVID-19: 350,831
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 200,955
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 160,264
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 152,657
Alzheimer’s disease: 134,242
Diabetes: 102,188
Influenza and pneumonia: 53,544
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 52,547

These are things to be concerned about.

One thing, though....

We're not talking about those other things in this discussion. We're just talking about back feeding generators VS proper lockout/transfer switches. Nothing else.

Bringing in other things to compare levels of danger is (intentional or not) a distraction.

If you (or I) want to forego the proper safety equipment, that is, of course, on us. No different than breaking traffic laws, yet needlessly puts others at risk if done. I'd have to wonder if our home owner's insurance would cover a fire, property damage, personal injury, etc., if something were to happen while back feeding a generator. An accident is one thing. Negligence is quite another. Besides getting our pants sued off, we'd have to live with the thought of harming someone else when it could have been avoided. And it's so inexpensive to make it a bit safer.

At my old job, we had a saying:

You can't make things idiot proof. You can only make them idiot resistant. And rules don't apply to the loading dock people. They get bored and start removing screws and covers and taping buttons down and such. An odd breed of folks.

 

[MossRoad]

You may be correct and it may have an I terconnect but I can see enough in the photo for me to advise the op to have a competent electrican look at it. Or clean it up as he stated he wanted done.

I wonder what that smaller box is in the shadows to the upper right of the bigger panel?

 

[grsthegreat]

I wonder what that smaller box is in the shadows to the upper right of the bigger panel?

To me it looks like a sewer or sump pump alarm. I see 2 control wires entering it.

 

[MossRoad]

To me it looks like a sewer or sump pump alarm. I see 2 control wires entering it.

Ah. I was thinking something like that, but there are so many things it could be, who knows.

A cover with labels or a schedule might clear things up. As it is, it just looks like breakers and no on-off-on device to be seen.

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

Which all circles back to simply having an electrician check it out. He/she knows the recent regulations, is right there seeing what needs to be done at the same time installing a generator connection if the OP so desires.
grsthegreat being a retired electrician should agree this is the best approach (although I can't figure out why he's interested in my nuts.).
I believe everyone would agree given the antiquated complexity, hazardous nature and insurance matters mentioned it certainly would be the best choice.
I recently had electricians here for a different issue. While they were here I suggested why not check everything (home and buildings) making sure things were up to code which they did. It wasn't that expensive and peace of mind.

 

[IndyJay]

My wife could care less about tv. Following the steps, backfeeding into the grid is impossible. Impossible.
(You edited "wifey").

I do the same. I disconnect the pigtail when not in use. Not dangerous if you know you are doing and why. Turn off breakers to heavy draws, Isolate from utility, connect pigtail, fire up generator, close breaker feeding panel. Reverse order to restore.

 

[TDNelin]

This is a little off topic, but I bet some of you know the answer. I just bought a house built in 1979. It has a generator hook-up, but the realtor said it has never been used--not part of the issue. It was installed and wired by a reputable local electrician. Attached to the generator cable connection box is a 12-circuit load panel with a double 60 being incoming power from the main load center and a double 20 being incoming from the generator connection. The remaining 12 breakers (some are tandems) are wired to individual circuits in the main panel.

What this amounts to is circuit A being a black and white wire leaving the main panel, (but still long enough to go around the perimeter of the panel as originally wired) , but powered by a yellow (or any other color) wire from a breaker in the gen panel to the black wire, and a white wire from the gen panel to the white wire in the circuit A. With 12 out-going breakers in the gen panel there are 24 additional wires entering the main panel and wire-nutted to the existing black and white out-going wires PLUS there are circuits in the main panel that are not connected to the gen panel. The congestion of wires in the main panel is beyond anything I have ever seen.

Despite having power outages a few times per year, I have never felt it necessary to buy a generator, and I have no experience with them. I would think that a generator would just push juice into the main panel replacing what normally comes from the grid. Clearly the gen won't put out the everyday amperage, so the homeowner needs to determine what he wants to run--the water pump, freezer, refrig and furnace , but not every light and appliance in the house.

I would love to disconnect (and ultimately remove) all connections to individual circuits from the gen panel to the main panel. I am not an electrician, but I feel perfectly comfortable inside a 30 circuit 150 amp panel. Is there some good reason why I must retain this multi-colored bowl of spaghetti in my load center?

 

[IndyJay]

i should have taken pictures of a generator i was called to look at a few years ago. guy backfed panel with a suicide plug for many years, no issues. no interlock for many years, no issue. than comes one time when he was tired from moving snow and shoveling walkways. power came back on, he went and threw main breaker back on...but didnt unhook generator,. blew up generator. and melted a bunch of his panel. he wanted me to bid to replace main panel. i decided against doing any work on this job because i have retired as an electrician and didnt want the headaches. but the generator was destroyed. a bunch of circuits in his house wernt working. quite the mess. all this because he didnt want to use a $49 interlock.

just saying

I had a friend fall asleep at the wheel driving home from a double shift. Terrible accident.

 

[DaBear3428]

Which all circles back to simply having an electrician check it out. He/she knows the recent regulations, is right there seeing what needs to be done at the same time installing a generator connection if the OP so desires.
grsthegreat being a retired electrician should agree this is the best approach (although I can't figure out why he's interested in my nuts.).
I believe everyone would agree given the antiquated complexity, hazardous nature and insurance matters mentioned it certainly would be the best choice.
I recently had electricians here for a different issue. While they were here I suggested why not check everything (home and buildings) making sure things were up to code which they did. It wasn't that expensive and peace of mind.

I can agree with you on that