Garage for Power Trac and Shop

[EddieWalker]

Well I signed the contract for the garage.

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!

Eddie

 

[catsco]

Eddie -

Be sure to do #10 first; the rest will still be there later.

Regards,
Mark H.

 

[BobRip]

Again thanks for the many comments and suggestions.
I was thinking that rust forming on my equipment (milling machine, table saw, drill press, etc.) might be an issue. What works best to prevent this. Will a fire in the wood stove every two or three days be enough? Would a spray coating on the equipment work, if so what should I use? Other suggestions?

 

[J_J]

Again thanks for the many comments and suggestions.
I was thinking that rust forming on my equipment (milling machine, table saw, drill press, etc.) might be an issue. What works best to prevent this. Will a fire in the wood stove every two or three days be enough? Would a spray coating on the equipment work, if so what should I use? Other suggestions?

Bob,

A dehumidifier work best to control moisture.

 

[BobRip]

Bob,

A dehumidifier work best to control moisture.

OK, no issue there. Is it the best way to prevent rust? Will it freeze in the winter? Is it the most economical to operate? It does sound convenient. It also adds a little heat and would shut off when not needed.

Edit: I found a place called "The Rust Store". I will give them a call on Wednesday and see what they recommend. Has anyone dealt with them?

 

[toy]

Again thanks for the many comments and suggestions.
I was thinking that rust forming on my equipment (milling machine, table saw, drill press, etc.) might be an issue. What works best to prevent this. Will a fire in the wood stove every two or three days be enough? Would a spray coating on the equipment work, if so what should I use? Other suggestions?

I was told to keep the milling machine and metal lathe sprayed down with a coat of oil. car wax on my table saw jointer and other woodworking tools seem to work just fine. My tools are in a cinder block building and I don't have much condensation problems. I have a metal building and in it I do have condensation problems even though it is insulated. I have heard people say that their metal buildings don't sweat but I am skeptical about that. I believe that the spray on insulation would help if not stop that but like one said it is expensive. One thing about waxing your wood working tools the material slides a lot easier.

 

[Marks481]

I use boeshield t-9 on my tablesaw, bandsaw, jointer, etc.

I don't have a milling machine (yet), but I am thinking that you are better off wiping it off and spraying it with oil (as others have mentoned) after use.

 

[FOURTEEN]

I was thinking that rust forming on my equipment (milling machine, table saw, drill press, etc.) might be an issue. What works best to prevent this?

All you need to do is keep the equipment inside the building constantly a little warmer than outside so condensation won't form. An electric heater set for a little warmer than outside will do the trick.
In an unheated, uninsulated building the equipment will cool down overnight. Then when the air inside the building warms up during the day, sweat, followed by rust, will appear on the equipment because the air warms faster than the equipment.

PS: In my heated Morton Building none of my plastic, rubber, or aluminum tools have shown any rust!
.

 

[BobRip]

All you need to do is keep the equipment inside the building constantly a little warmer than outside so condensation won't form. An electric heater set for a little warmer than outside will do the trick.
In an unheated, uninsulated building the equipment will cool down overnight. Then when the air inside the building warms up during the day, sweat, followed by rust, will appear on the equipment because the air warms faster than the equipment.

PS: In my heated Morton Building none of my plastic, rubber, or aluminum tools have shown any rust!
.

Glad to hear your tools are doing well although it would be intersting to see plastic tools rust.

My garage will be insulated. Will that be enough, or do I need to add heat also? I suspect that answer is "it depends". Sounds like the dehumidifier would do well again. It adds a little heat and takes out the moisture.

 

[FOURTEEN]

""although it would be intersting to see plastic tools rust.""

As the rooster says in the cartoons: "That was a joke , Son!!"


""My garage will be insulated. Will that be enough, or do I need to add heat also?""

The insulation will moderate the temp changes, but any time that the tools are cooler than the air, condensation may form. For example, in the Spring when the nights are chilly, the shop interior cools down, in the late morning you open the OH door, and in rushes the warm moist Spring air. If your tools are below the dew point of that warm moist air, you get condensation. Adding a little heat overnight should keep your tools above the dew point.


""Sounds like the dehumidifier would do well again.""

I think that the small electric heater would be a lot cheaper and more effective. Also no water to empty.
In the above scenerio, when you open that OH door on that Spring morning, out will rush your cool dry air, and in will rush the warm moist air ready to deposit its moisture on your cool tools! This process will continue until the tools warm to above the dew point of the outside, now inside, air. Meanwhile rust may be forming! If you had kept the tools warmer than the dew point of the outside air, no condensation would form. (The tools just have to be warmer than the dew point temperature, not warmer than the ambient temperature!!) The larger the tool or equipment is, the longer it will take for the outside air to warm it, and the moisture will have a longer opportunity to condense on it. The dehumidifier would work ok if you kept the shop always closed up tight!

Also, having the shop just a few degrees warmer will make it so much more pleasant to work in!


""It adds a little heat and takes out the moisture.""

Actually it cools the air, then reheats it. Howstuffworks "How does a dehumidifier work?"

.

 

[farm23]

Fourteen is correct. My small shop is insulated and heated with a small infrared propane "Mr Heater". Keeping the shop above the dew polint and above freezing allows you to keep your tools rust free but also allows you to keep fluids without worry. My PT stays in a covered area without heat and it does get wet with dew - guess my next project is to build an additon to my barn.

 

[ponytug]

Just a quick point: a dehumidifier will cost more upfront, but it requires less energy to run that a heater.

If you do go the electric heater route, try to get a ceramic heater, which is much less likely to ignite fumes or dust.

Don't over look the possibility of using solar heat.
Solar garage heater
It is an old article, and some scrouging is involved, but the price is tough to beat.

All the best,

Peter

 

[BobRip]

Just a quick point: a dehumidifier will cost more upfront, but it requires less energy to run that a heater.

If you do go the electric heater route, try to get a ceramic heater, which is much less likely to ignite fumes or dust.

Don't over look the possibility of using solar heat.
Solar garage heater
It is an old article, and some scrouging is involved, but the price is tough to beat.

All the best,

Peter

Peter, I would love to do a solar heating system, but I live in a valley with trees all around. I would have to cut down many trees and get divorced to do this. The divorce alone would cost more than heating the garage with electric heat for decades. I would also miss my wife.

Thanks anyway.

 

[woodlandfarms]

You could have mine if you need one ;-)

 

[FOURTEEN]

Fourteen is correct.

Thanks Farm23! You are absolutely right! That is the wisest statement that I have read here on TBN in nearly four years! I wish others would realize how true your statement is!! If I were to send you my wife's cell phone number, would you call her, and show her the error of her ways?? In the last 38 years she has actually (a few times) questioned my vast knowledge, veracity, and humility!!! Perhaps, with your help, we could purge any lingering doubts from her mind!!!!

Thanks, again!

PS: A 220 volt heater is much more energy efficient than a 110, because it provides a balanced load.

That solar heater is too ugly, too much work, and only provides heat for 5 daylight hours. The need is for just low, constant heat, particularly overnight, to keep the tools and equipment above the dew point.

I happily keep my Morton (R19 walls & R38 ceiling)at a minimum of 55 degrees 24/7/365, yet seldom hear the heaters run. (Mostly just on cold days after I have opened the OH doors for some reason.)

I use two of these heaters Portable Electric Garage Shop Space Heater Model BRH562 - eBay (item 200186716018 end time Jan-04-08 07:57:37 PST) , hard wired. One is set at 55 and left on all the time. The second one is set at 70, and is only turned on when I will be working inside for an extended period.
.

 

[cqaigy2]

questioned my vast knowledge, veracity, and humility!!!
.

Didn't you mean to say humidity instead of humility.

Here in the Great Pacific Northwest, where it's been known to rain some, keeping out buildings above the dew point goes a lonnnnnnggggg way towards keeping tools and what not from getting soggy and or rusty.

 

[BobRip]

Thanks Farm23!

PS: A 220 volt heater is much more energy efficient than a 110, because it provides a balanced load.

That solar heater is too ugly, too much work, and only provides heat for 5 daylight hours. The need is for just low, constant heat, particularly overnight, to keep the tools and equipment above the dew point.

I happily keep my Morton (R19 walls & R38 ceiling)at a minimum of 55 degrees 24/7/365, yet seldom hear the heaters run. (Mostly just on cold days after I have opened the OH doors for some reason.)

I use two of these heaters Portable Electric Garage Shop Space Heater Model BRH562 - eBay (item 200186716018 end time Jan-04-08 07:57:37 PST) , hard wired. One is set at 55 and left on all the time. The second one is set at 70, and is only turned on when I will be working inside for an extended period.
.

Fourteen, I agree with everthing you said except that 220 volt heaters are more efficient. Electric heaters are all 100% efficient. All of the losses in an electric heater (in the cord, wiring, switches, fans) convert to heat and since heat is what you want then the losses are not losses. Having a balanced load is good, but it does not help efficiency. Having lower current in the lines from 220 volts will reduce losses in the power lines leading to the garage, but that will be pretty small. If you want to count this, then maybe you are right.

I think the dehumidifier is the best choice. Again all of it's losses turn to heat (a good thing as you stated) and humidity is removed (also a good thing). The negatives are more initial expense and more maintenace. It might be good to put in a small base board heater as a backup to run at low temperatures. I am very sensitive to energy cost since my house is built of insulated concrete forms with R50 in the walls and R55 in the actic. We pride ourselves on low electric bills, so I hate to use much electric heat. Even the dehumidifier is more than I want to run. Oh well, my tax increase will probably be more than my electric bill increase and that is worse. Although it is better to send money to the county then to the Arabs.

 

[FOURTEEN]

Fourteen, I agree with everthing you said except that 220 volt heaters are more efficient. Electric heaters are all 100% efficient. All of the losses in an electric heater (in the cord, wiring, switches, fans) convert to heat and since heat is what you want then the losses are not losses. Having a balanced load is good, but it does not help efficiency. Having lower current in the lines from 220 volts will reduce losses in the power lines leading to the garage, but that will be pretty small. If you want to count this, then maybe you are right.

my house is built of insulated concrete forms

No, that is not what I am referring to. I am talking about saving money on your electric bill. The residential single phase electric power meter measures the maximum current flow through either the red or black sides of a 220V service.

One 220V/2200W heater will draw 10A on both sides. One 110V/1100W heater on each side (balanced) will draw 10A on both sides.
One 110V/2200W heater will draw 20A on one side. Two 110V/1100W heaters on one side will draw 20A on one side.

Therefore, if the load is unbalanced, the meter will 'see' more current flow and charge more money. On commercial and industrial three phase systems much time and effort is used to design balanced systems to reduce electric cost.


I always wanted to build one of those foam form houses, but didn't have the opportunity! With the possible exception of the 'nut house', this will be my last residence. I bought it used, so I had to take it 'as built'. I've made quite a few improvements and changes, but using foam forms isn't an option!!
.

 

[Bob999]

No, that is not what I am referring to. I am talking about saving money on your electric bill. The residential single phase electric power meter measures the maximum current flow through either the red or black sides of a 220V service.

One 220V/2200W heater will draw 10A on both sides. One 110V/1100W heater on each side (balanced) will draw 10A on both sides.
One 110V/2200W heater will draw 20A on one side. Two 110V/1100W heaters on one side will draw 20A on one side.

Therefore, if the load is unbalanced, the meter will 'see' more current flow and charge more money. On commercial and industrial three phase systems much time and effort is used to design balanced systems to reduce electric cost.

I always wanted to build one of those foam form houses, but didn't have the opportunity! With the possible exception of the 'nut house', this will be my last residence. I bought it used, so I had to take it 'as built'. I've made quite a few improvements and changes, but using foam forms isn't an option!!
.

My understanding is that residential electric meters measure wattage used. A 110 V heater using 10 amps uses 1100 watts per hour. A 220V heater using 5 amps uses 1100 watts per hour. The same wattage for the same cost.

But--even if you were correct the problem could be solved by connecting the two heaters to circuits connected to different sides of the bus in the distribution panel.

 

[J_J]

Although I have heard that a balanced system is ideal, it will be darn hard to achieve. If I remember right, there was an electric company in town that advertised that they could balance the electric panel. I am assuming that they were trying to balance out the 110v breakers on each side, because the 220 v breakers are already balanced. I would say in most situations, you are never balanced.

I am sure that some electrical guru will chime in here and set us straight.