Garage for Power Trac and Shop

[SpringHollow]

It REALLY pains me to say it but Fourteen is right (I hate to see him have to demonstrate any more humility than he alreasy has - i liked the rust joke by the way).

Here at least, the meter reads the amperage (or wattage since they are proportional to each other) only on the highest drawing leg. If the electrical loads in house A was the same as House B, but House A was 110V all on the same leg and House B was 220 V balnced equally, House A's electricty would cost twice as much (excluding all the fees, etc.) as House B's even though the total wattage is the same. So a 220V heater or airconditioner could save as half the $ as a 110V unit since it has half the amperage on any given leg. That maximum would only be realized if everything else in the house was perfectly balanced which seldom happens so the savings are usually less than 50%. Still, there is good reason to go 220V since these tend to be your larer loads.

Ken

 

[FOURTEEN]

I hope the pain isn't too severe!!



"Location: South of Rochester, NY"

Where?

I was born in Rochester, raised in Lima, college at RIT, Local #86 electrician, cottage on Honeoye Lake, lived in Canadice, and left in 1980! Haven't been back since my parents died.

The only thing I miss is not being able to plow snow with my PT425!! I sure could have used one of these back then!!
.

 

[BobRip]

It REALLY pains me to say it but Fourteen is right (I hate to see him have to demonstrate any more humility than he alreasy has - i liked the rust joke by the way).

Here at least, the meter reads the amperage (or wattage since they are proportional to each other) only on the highest drawing leg. If the electrical loads in house A was the same as House B, but House A was 110V all on the same leg and House B was 220 V balnced equally, House A's electricty would cost twice as much (excluding all the fees, etc.) as House B's even though the total wattage is the same. So a 220V heater or airconditioner could save as half the $ as a 110V unit since it has half the amperage on any given leg. That maximum would only be realized if everything else in the house was perfectly balanced which seldom happens so the savings are usually less than 50%. Still, there is good reason to go 220V since these tend to be your larer loads.

Ken

I did some research on this unbalance load costing more to run and the research did not support this. See this link. http://www.usbr.gov/power/data/fist/fist3_10/vol3-10.pdf

The linked paper shows schematics that add the current from the two legs and multiplies it by the voltage. I called a EE friend and he did the actual research. I will be the first to admit that the paper in the link does not come out and flatly contradict the statement that you made. However, I am buying Kilowatt hours and that is what it should measure. Commerical systems are different as they are 3 phase and unbalanced loads cost them generating power and other things. With a home it is single phase and no matter how you pull the power (balanced or unbalanced) the high wire feeding you transformer supplies the same current and power.

A test you could run would be to turn off all of your breakers except for two (one on each 120 volt leg). Plug in one electirc heater and monitor the speed of the disc (number of revolutions in one minute) and then put an electric heater on the other leg and see if the speed increases. If it increases then its monitoring both legs. My meter is new and does not have a disc, so I can't check this.

Ken, could you reference you source of information on this subject?

 

[SpringHollow]

A good friend is a licensed electrician and he told me this. When the local power company was down doing some work on the transformers, their electrician confirmed this. Now, another friend works for a company that all they do is make residential electrical load monitoring equipment so residents can balance their loads. He said that they would be out of business if it were not true.

I will try and remember to call the power company and see what their engineers say. They are switching over to solid state meters as we speak which also might change things.

Ken

 

[BobRip]

A good friend is a licensed electrician and he told me this. When the local power company was down doing some work on the transformers, their electrician confirmed this. Now, another friend works for a company that all they do is make residential electrical load monitoring equipment so residents can balance their loads. He said that they would be out of business if it were not true.

I will try and remember to call the power company and see what their engineers say. They are switching over to solid state meters as we speak which also might change things.

Ken

I am tempted to call my power company on this. Solid state meters can do anything they want. I wonder if this is legal. They are no longer charging you for power, but something else. If they did this without regulatory approval then it's probably not legal. Of course the power company has lawyers and probably did get approval. How about everybody calling their power company and see what they say?

 

[JD-Beach]

Good morning guys,

A few points on this electrical discussion from a licensed electrical engineer:

The vast majority of residences are metered by watt-hour revenue meters. This means watts X (multiplied by) hours and has nothing to do with balanced loads.

It is good to have balanced loads, although at the residential level the loads are rarely balanced, yet the imbalance amperage is usually insignificant. When numerous residences are connected to the utility company a natural diversity occurs which (usually) lessens the imbalance. JJ is correct in his statement regarding this.

It's true that if you increase the voltage of the appliance, you will reduce the current (amps) although you keep the total watts constant. However this does not save you any "Watt-hour" money on your electric bill.

BobRip is correct in his position.

There are exceptions to this condition where a service is metered by a "Demand" meter. In this case the total amps do count and reducing the amps helps to save money (but not energy). These "demand service rate schedules are typically used in commercial or industrial services and are limited in the residential environment. When they are used for a residential service it is often connected with a demand controlling computer that monitors total amps and automatically turns off certain loads when the demand limits are approached. I have this type of service at my home if anyone is interested in the details. It's fun to play with but it only saved me about $30 per month so it was not a great investment.

Generally is it good to operate tools or other loads at 240 volts because it will often result in the use of smaller wire. However I would limit this to big motors or big heaters where 120-volt operation would require #10 wire and 240-volt operation would require #12 wire.


Hope this helps

 

[SpringHollow]

I looked at our bill. We are on a peak demand system where they monitor how much power and when. It says we will be switched to a normal plan when they install the remote monitoring meter.

Ken

 

[JD-Beach]

Ken, Most demand meters measure total kilowatts (amps X volts). If you have this type of meter then the imbalance will not hurt your electric bill, because even when the lower voltage results in a higher current (amps) the multiplied product of these two numbers is the measure of demand. This is the type of peak demand metering used here in Virginia.

What is the name of your utility company? We can look online at their rate-schedules to determine the details of your demand related costs.

 

[BobRip]

Again, many thanks for all of the input. I thought I would summarize what I plan to do.

The garage will be 24 X 48 foot with a ceiling of about 10 feet.
There will be an attic room about 15 by 38 feet. A stair on the back of the garage will lead up to the attic. The attic will be unfinished and used for storage. The exterior will be brick with an 18 foot garage door, 9 foot garage door (on side), and a 30 inch door near the house. The roof will have lifetime shingles.
The electrical service will be 100 amp, 220 volts. The electrical panel will be a 200 amp panel to allow for more breakers. There will be 120 volt electrical outlets every 4 feet. No adjacent outlets will be on the same circuit breaker. With about qty 8, 220 volt outlets. Some wired with 12 guage (20 amp) and some with 10 guage (30 amp). Although all of them will have 20 amp breakers initially, or maybe no breaker (not connected).

A dust collector (Grizzly) with 2.5 micron filter and 220 volts will be installed eventually.
A 220 volts air compressor will be installed eventually.

Heating will be a wood stove with some water barrels to hold heat. Flat tops will be put of the barrels as work space. I will also have a kerosene heater.

The ligthing will probably be 6 bulb T5 (5/8 inch diameter bulbs) fixtures. There will be six of these with a light switch for each. This gives about 95 lumens per square foot. It also uses about 2 KW of electricity when all are on. Hopeful this will be rare.



I plan to use roll around cubes as work space and tool holders. I saw this in Wood Magazine Edit: Actually Fine Wood Working Magazine. All the tops will be even with the tool cutting tops to act as wood and metal catchers.

I think that is all for now. Let me know if you have any suggestions. I am still not sure about the lights. They are right expensive (over $1000 for the fixtures), but I like a lot of light.

 

[farm23]

WOW I am envious. My shop is only 14 x 24 with 8' ceiling and no attic. I also started with a wood stove but after loosing some stored liquids I added a MR Heater propane infrared heater. It cost me about $100.00 a year (the shop is well insulated) to keep the shop @ approximatley 45 deg. unoccupied and 60 deg wihen I am working. The wood stove is still in place but I have been told by my insurance carrier to remove it.

 

[MossRoad]

The only thing about wood heat in the garage is that if you want to use any type of flammable, like spray paint or flour dust, you have to wait for the fire to go out. That's why, someday, when I build a shop or garage, I will be using radiant floor heat. The heat source for the water will be outside or possibly in a different building.

Have you ever worked in a shop with radiant floor heat? Oh, man, is it ever nice. We had an airplane hangar that had it. You could pull a snow covered vehicle in there and hose it off. Then squeegee the water to the floor drain. Within a half an hour, the floor was dry and you could lay on it to work under the vehicle. Just plain wonderful.

 

[BobRip]

WOW I am envious. My shop is only 14 x 24 with 8' ceiling and no attic. I also started with a wood stove but after loosing some stored liquids I added a MR Heater propane infrared heater. It cost me about $100.00 a year (the shop is well insulated) to keep the shop @ approximatley 45 deg. unoccupied and 60 deg wihen I am working. The wood stove is still in place but I have been told by my insurance carrier to remove it.

Why should you have to remove the wood stove? Maybe I should talk to my insurance agent.

 

[BobRip]

The only thing about wood heat in the garage is that if you want to use any type of flammable, like spray paint or flour dust, you have to wait for the fire to go out. That's why, someday, when I build a shop or garage, I will be using radiant floor heat. The heat source for the water will be outside or possibly in a different building.

Have you ever worked in a shop with radiant floor heat? Oh, man, is it ever nice. We had an airplane hangar that had it. You could pull a snow covered vehicle in there and hose it off. Then squeegee the water to the floor drain. Within a half an hour, the floor was dry and you could lay on it to work under the vehicle. Just plain wonderful.

The radiant floor heat sounds good. I could have the stove outside and get more room. What is the approximate cost of such a system. I need to decide this soon as the slab will go in as soon as we get the permit.

 

[MossRoad]

I have no idea of the price. You could probably get an estimate to have PEX installed in the slab in a couple of loops. Two runs in the main area and two runs in each shop area or room, etc... I was told to do two runs in parallel so that if one ever breaks, there is a second one. Run the ends of the circuits to a common area so that you could put in a manifold, and then hook it up some day. At least the runs are in place for the future. I'd check with a local contractor instead of taking my word for it, since I am, in no way, knowledgeable on this subject... just have read about it a bit.

 

[woodlandfarms]

Bring your gold card. Labor and materials are fierce and you want to make sure you get someone who has done this and has a rep of doing a good job.

This said I am not sure how much different the cost would be compared to a whole barn heating system, and they are much more efficient (once the concrete is warmed up it holds heat for a long time).

I have seen costco selling electric version. - Bathroom sized mats...

This all said , you may be able to do the work yourself and save some coin.

Carl

 

[ponytug]

FarmTek sells the pipe, as do many others. (They'll give you some help over the phone.) You can search for PEX-Al-PEX pipe. If you haven't done it before, I would get some local expert advice.

Once you have had a heat floor it is hard to live with anything else....

All the best,

Peter

 

[SpringHollow]

I have heat in the floor in my house - I did the retrofit installation myself. Usually, if you send a floor plan to a manufacturer (mine was Heatway at the time), they will send back a layout with tubing lengths, etc. for free.

It is an extremely comfortable way to heat your house of shop. In a house, it is a little more efficient since you typically set the thermostat a little lower since you and your feet are warm. You also save a little because there is less heat stratification of the air. However, the system is slow to respond so setback thermostat settings usually do not make sense.

The tubing is cheap. If I were building a barn/shop/garage with a concrete floor, I would install the tubing even if i thought i would not use it right away. However, it is probably not more efficient to use for a shop that is only used for an hour or two since it can take a while to heat up. I would be tempted to also install a fan coil unit in the same boiler system. A fan coil is basically a water to air heat exchanger (similar to a car's radiator) with a fan blowing across it. This would allow you to keep the barn at one set temperature with the heat in the floor but you could do a rapid boost with the fan coil. If you were going to work all weekend in the shop, you could raise the thermostat for the floor heat.

It would be extremely nice to be laying down on warm concrete while working underneath equipment!

I have an outside wood boiler and i like the idea of not having any combustion devices in the shop but one could also use a boiler that is ducted for outside air intake and exhaust. That way, there is less of a chance of a problem as compared to a unit that uses inside air for combustion. It is also more efficient.

I do not know if i would run a spare set of tubing or not. If the concrete does not heave, you should be good. A major heave is likely to ruin the spare pipe as well. The tubing lasts 75 years or more. If you know where a leak is, you can bust up the concrete at the leak and repair it. I might be tempted to oversize the pipe if the next size smaller pipe would fit inside it if necessary. But if something crushed/punctured the pex, i am not sure you could slide another pipe through it any ways. By the way, i am referring to PEX - do not use copper. PEX is MUCH better in this application and now with the cost of copper, you can not afford to use it even if you wanted to.

Just make sure to pressure test the tubing before you install the concrete and keep it pressurised duringthe concrete install. 99.9% of leaks are going to occur from someone doing something during installation of the tubing or concrete. If you isolate the tubing and monitor it with a pressure gauge, you will be able to see if there is a problem before it becomes a big problem.

Ken

 

[farm23]

If you do not mind the extra work and have a good source of wood the radiant floor / wood burning boilser is a very comfortable concept and safe. I have not installed such a system but a neighbor here did and claims the cost was about the same as a duct system. The down side for a home comes if you expect to add A/C. When I lived in Richmond I did have a window A/C unit for my shop, but it was not a large as yours will be.

 

[catsco]

Regarding radiant heat in garage/workshop. It's a GREAT idea, but no one mentioned the obvious "thing to remember"; use a PEX compatible antifreeze in the circuit in the floor for when the power is off. And it's 2 degrees outside. And you're on vacation.

Regards,
Mark H.

 

[SpringHollow]

Someone had better not be installing one of these systems just based on these posts - there are lots of obvious things missing! For example, an expansion tank is needed in a closed system, pressure relief valve, possibly air remover/vents, GFI, a way to fill the system, etc.

Ken