Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong

[MossRoad]

Look at the guys who operate the stand behind mowers on steep banks. They have no problem. As long as the ergonomics of the machine work well for the standing position it's easy and secure. In my case my heals lock into a spot on each side of the transmission hump and my legs straddle the steering wheel. So I have 4 points of contact with my feet / legs. I acknowledge that this works so well because the ergonomics of my particular machine fit my 6'3" frame well in the standing position and that if I were much shorter, the position wouldn't work as well. But I don't need to stand to see the tips of my forks. I can see them on the ground from the seated position. If I stand, I can see the full attachment up front. I typically only stand up when I need that little extra visibility or if digging out a stump with the stump bucket. Then I stand the entire time for skid steer like visibility.

One of my CUT criteria when shopping was visibility and I didn't even look at anything that didn't have a seat height higher than the front of the hood. The JD CUTs are terrible. The seats are so low and hoods so high (with exception of the JD 110 which is awesome)

After purchasing my tractor, I build brackets to raise the seat a little more. This was to fit my long legs in the seated position, but it had the added benefit of increasing seated visibility.

I've been eyeing up the JD110 in our local cemetery where we take walks a few times a week. Pretty neat machine. Gets into really tight spaces between all the graves and has no problem lifting the concreted vaults into the holes.

 

[MossRoad]

If the Power-Trac had some kind of hydraulic rear hitch, or even an electrically actuated rear hitch, I probably would have coughed up the cash and learned how to work on it. Although I agree some attachments are better on the front, some are better on the rear. And dragging an attachment behind with no ability to lift it really limits the usability.

Like I said before, I think PT is a major step in the right direction of rethinking tractor design for non-farmer landowners. With a few more changes, it could be a nearly perfect solution.

Still waiting for an all-electric tractor.

I hear you. Some people need to perform certain tasks that require pulling power. I don't. :thumbsup:

 

[MossRoad]

And this is what you look like!!
View attachment 574186

Exactly.... and I have the same hair, too! :laughing:

 

[airbiscuit]

First, let me say that I would like to own a Power Trac for its many uses around the yard. It fills a useful niche. It comes from a small manufacturer with lower overhead, and no dealer network which helps keep its cost down. It uses many off the shelf parts which also keeps thge cost down. Owners say they are easy to work on which is good news, but they also seem to work on them a lot which is bad news. Their industry code is lawn and garden equipment which is telling.

It would be interesting if they were bought out by someone like Kubota or Kioti to add to their stable. (an even better fit might be a major zero turn mower manufacturer who could expand their product line). I would expect the following design enhancements:

• More robust components
• 2 or 3 speed hydros
• Differential Lock(s) (mechanical of hydraulic)
• Rear 3 point
• Refined Ergonomics
• Larger Tires on Larger Models
• Bi-Directional
• PTO

Of course, with all that comes higher price. So maybe it is perfect for what it is. Just not sure you can say it is more perfect than a CUT :scratchchin:

 

[prof fate]

F

It would be interesting if they were bought out by someone like Kubota or Kioti to add to their stable. (an even better fit might be a major zero turn mower manufacturer who could expand their product line). I would expect the following design enhancements:

• More robust components
• 2 or 3 speed hydros
• Differential Lock(s) (mechanical of hydraulic)
• Rear 3 point
• Refined Ergonomics
• Larger Tires on Larger Models
• Bi-Directional
• PTO

Of course, with all that comes higher price. So maybe it is perfect for what it is. Just not sure you can say it is more perfect than a CUT :scratchchin:

you just described a tractor...

 

[gladehound]

Put a rotating operator platform on a modern CUT. Put the loader and the 3pt off the "rear" (i.e. big tire side). Put another 3 pt off the front and be done with it!

 

[MossRoad]

First, let me say that I would like to own a Power Trac for its many uses around the yard. It fills a useful niche. It comes from a small manufacturer with lower overhead, and no dealer network which helps keep its cost down. It uses many off the shelf parts which also keeps thge cost down. Owners say they are easy to work on which is good news, but they also seem to work on them a lot which is bad news. Their industry code is lawn and garden equipment which is telling.

It would be interesting if they were bought out by someone like Kubota or Kioti to add to their stable. (an even better fit might be a major zero turn mower manufacturer who could expand their product line). I would expect the following design enhancements:

• More robust components
• 2 or 3 speed hydros
• Differential Lock(s) (mechanical of hydraulic)
• Rear 3 point
• Refined Ergonomics
• Larger Tires on Larger Models
• Bi-Directional
• PTO

Of course, with all that comes higher price. So maybe it is perfect for what it is. Just not sure you can say it is more perfect than a CUT :scratchchin:

And don't forget, I'm not just talking about Power Tracs. There's all kinds of other machines out there. Ventrac. Avant. Tracked machines. Compact telehandlers. Look at European machines, the Swiss machines. There's so much out there. Keep an open mind, and try a few different machines out and see how they work and operate.

 

[4570Man]

Yeah, OK. :laughing:

It’ll take you 15-20 trips to move with I can do in one. If the ground is dry enough for you to make 20 trips it’s dry enough for me to make 1. I’ve dumped a little bit off the end directly into flowerbeds plenty of times. Woods might be a stretch but I’ve driven on trails through trees plenty of times. But never mind that. The power tract with its tiny bucket and 8 mph max travel speed is great for long distance hauls.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Companies have to be careful to remember their markets. Sure, you could build machines approaching perfection, and they would be too expensive for most markets. I think JD learned this lesson on the 110. It was a nice machine, and way over priced considering it was basically a 4000 series tractor.

 

[airbiscuit]

And don't forget, I'm not just talking about Power Tracs. There's all kinds of other machines out there. Ventrac. Avant. Tracked machines. Compact telehandlers. Look at European machines, the Swiss machines. There's so much out there. Keep an open mind, and try a few different machines out and see how they work and operate.

I hear you, but if you're going to do it right, they just get too expensive. Company design and marketing departments don't always get it right, but the market does. Look at how Bobcat revolutionized the industry. Their early skidsteer models were crude (a 6hp motor and a rear steering tail wheel), but they served a market so well, they grew and others followed.

If the small articulated machine was the "be all and end all", the market would respond and we would be asking if the Kubota Model was better than the John Deere Model.

I would think this thread and Moss Road have increased Power Trac sales by 10%, but it's not quite a trend yet.

 

[sd455dan]

Put a rotating operator platform on a modern CUT. Put the loader and the 3pt off the "rear" (i.e. big tire side). Put another 3 pt off the front and be done with it!

maybe something like -an updated heavily modified Kubota L1R if it hasn't been mentioned before?

?????????????????????? - YouTube



Just realized this thread has been alive- dead- alive since 2001 WoW

 

[Xfaxman]

Companies have to be careful to remember their markets. Sure, you could build machines approaching perfection, and they would be too expensive for most markets. I think JD learned this lesson on the 110. It was a nice machine, and way over priced considering it was basically a 4000 series tractor.

That is the problem with the best "tractor" that I have ever had, too expensive for most people. But it isn't too expensive for what it will do. And it isn't very big at 6' wide, 6.5' tall, 13' long, 7,000 pound drawbar pull and will lift over 6,000 pounds.

For those that haven't seen it, click this: Compact telehandler

 

[MossRoad]

It値l take you 15-20 trips to move with I can do in one. If the ground is dry enough for you to make 20 trips it痴 dry enough for me to make 1. I致e dumped a little bit off the end directly into flowerbeds plenty of times. Woods might be a stretch but I致e driven on trails through trees plenty of times. But never mind that. The power tract with its tiny bucket and 8 mph max travel speed is great for long distance hauls.

First off, your facts are incorrect. I don't have a 1/4 yard bucket. I have a 1/3 yard bucket. So right away, I'm making 25% fewer trips than you assumed.

Second, you're substituting a 6.7 yard dump truck (based on your 20:1 trip ratio) for a 1500# conventional tractor like a NH TC21D or a PowerTrac P425, which is what we were comparing.

Sounds fair to me. I can't possibility win, so I'll increase my carrying capacity by 20 times. Why are you comparing a dump truck to two diffferent 1500# machines??? :confused2:

Third, you're loading that dump truck with a tracked loader which weighs what and has a bucket capacity of what?

Fourth, you're dragging a grasshopper into it to mow your lawn, for some reason.

Fifth, you're using a 6.7 yard dump truck to put mulch in flower beds.

My flower beds are 2' wide and next to my house and fences. Just how are you gonna do that with a 6.7 yard dump truck? My garden has a 4' gate and a fence. How are you gonna do that with a dump truck?

Stick with the original comparison of two different machines of about equal size and weight.

 

[gladehound]

That is the problem with the best "tractor" that I have ever had, too expensive for most people. But it isn't too expensive for what it will do. And it isn't very big at 6' wide, 6.5' tall, 13' long, 7,000 pound drawbar pull and will lift over 6,000 pounds.

For those that haven't seen it, click this: https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums...pact-telehandler-post3243370.html#post3243370

View attachment 574208 View attachment 574209 View attachment 574210 View attachment 574212

I've followed your posts. I love this type of machine and it's perfect for what you do with it. Yes, it's pricy, but if you have the work for it I can see it as a viable solution.

 

[MossRoad]

That one where he's plucked that pine tree out reminds me of Harv's Christmas classic....

 

[4570Man]

First off, your facts are incorrect. I don't have a 1/4 yard bucket. I have a 1/3 yard bucket. So right away, I'm making 25% fewer trips than you assumed.

Second, you're substituting a 6.7 yard dump truck (based on your 20:1 trip ratio) for a 1500# conventional tractor like a NH TC21D or a PowerTrac P425, which is what we were comparing.

Sounds fair to me. I can't possibility win, so I'll increase my carrying capacity by 20 times. Why are you comparing a dump truck to two diffferent 1500# machines??? :confused2:

Third, you're loading that dump truck with a tracked loader which weighs what and has a bucket capacity of what?

Fourth, you're dragging a grasshopper into it to mow your lawn, for some reason.

Fifth, you're using a 6.7 yard dump truck to put mulch in flower beds.

My flower beds are 2' wide and next to my house and fences. Just how are you gonna do that with a 6.7 yard dump truck? My garden has a 4' gate and a fence. How are you gonna do that with a dump truck?

Stick with the original comparison of two different machines of about equal size and weight.

First off I’m using the proper tools for the job. A dump truck to move material over a good distance and a lawnmower to cut grass. You say the comparison is unfair. 20 yards of mulch would cover miles of 2’ wide flower beds so that’s a silly criteria to meet. In your original comparison using 2 small machines to move 20 yards of material over a good distance with equal bucket volumes what makes you so sure you’ll win? If it was a perfectly smooth area the tractor will lap your 8 mph travel speed. On the more likely conditions where ground conditions limit the speed both machines are going to be very similar in the time required per trip.

 

[MossRoad]

First off I’m using the proper tools for the job. A dump truck to move material over a good distance and a lawnmower to cut grass. You say the comparison is unfair. 20 yards of mulch would cover miles of 2’ wide flower beds so that’s a silly criteria to meet. In your original comparison using 2 small machines to move 20 yards of material over a good distance with equal bucket volumes what makes you so sure you’ll win? If it was a perfectly smooth area the tractor will lap your 8 mph travel speed. On the more likely conditions where ground conditions limit the speed both machines are going to be very similar in the time required per trip.

Again, I say OK... :laughing:

 

[MossRoad]

Back in the early 2000's we had 60 yards of moon dust (granulated limestone) delivered to our little league park. They dumped it at the back of the park. It was to replenish three diamonds and build a new T-ball diamond. I volunteered to move the moon dust with my PT425. On work day, I show up with my machine and this guy starts laughing at me and saying we'll never get done, throws up his hands, gets in his truck and leaves. So I start moving it. About an hour later, he shows up with a Case 580 and says something about the right tool for the job. He scoops up a big old bucket full of moon dust and realizes he can't fit through the gate by the dugouts. So he drives all the way around the diamond, opens the double wide center field gate, drives over to the center of the infield, and dumps his load. He's looking pretty smug. I wave him down and say "Nice!", and give him the thumbs up. Then I point behind him. He's left two huge ruts about 10" deep all the way from the fence to about the shortstop position, ruining the turf. He said he'd fix it later and goes and gets a couple more loads. First time he comes back and makes the ruts deeper. Next time he tries a different path and makes a second set of ruts about 20' over. I got several parents together and they begged him to stop. He got mad and spent the rest of the afternoon trying to fix the ruts as he backed out of the diamond. He couldn't fix the ruts because the machine kept sinking, and he only moved three scoops of moon dust. Right tool for the job.... uh, no. :laughing:

I ended up fixing the ruts, putting in many yards of black dirt and reseeding it, and watering it twice a day for a couple weeks.

It took me Saturday to move most of the dust over three diamonds and a few more hours on Sunday, then about 3 hours of dragging with a chain link fence and cement blocks to get it all level. Looked real nice. The guy even told me it looked good and was surprised at how fast that little machine could move that much material. He ended up coaching my kid in softball and we got along real well. Good guy. :thumbsup:

 

[airbiscuit]

Back in the early 2000's we had 60 yards of moon dust (granulated limestone) delivered to our little league park. They dumped it at the back of the park. It was to replenish three diamonds and build a new T-ball diamond. I volunteered to move the moon dust with my PT425. On work day, I show up with my machine and this guy starts laughing at me and saying we'll never get done, throws up his hands, gets in his truck and leaves. So I start moving it. About an hour later, he shows up with a Case 580 and says something about the right tool for the job. He scoops up a big old bucket full of moon dust and realizes he can't fit through the gate by the dugouts. So he drives all the way around the diamond, opens the double wide center field gate, drives over to the center of the infield, and dumps his load. He's looking pretty smug. I wave him down and say "Nice!", and give him the thumbs up. Then I point behind him. He's left two huge ruts about 10" deep all the way from the fence to about the shortstop position, ruining the turf. He said he'd fix it later and goes and gets a couple more loads. First time he comes back and makes the ruts deeper. Next time he tries a different path and makes a second set of ruts about 20' over. I got several parents together and they begged him to stop. He got mad and spent the rest of the afternoon trying to fix the ruts as he backed out of the diamond. He couldn't fix the ruts because the machine kept sinking, and he only moved three scoops of moon dust. Right tool for the job.... uh, no. :laughing:

I ended up fixing the ruts, putting in many yards of black dirt and reseeding it, and watering it twice a day for a couple weeks.

It took me Saturday to move most of the dust over three diamonds and a few more hours on Sunday, then about 3 hours of dragging with a chain link fence and cement blocks to get it all level. Looked real nice. The guy even told me it looked good and was surprised at how fast that little machine could move that much material. He ended up coaching my kid in softball and we got along real well. Good guy. :thumbsup:

So, they dumped belly dump loads of lime on my daughter's softball fields. I moved and spread the lime with a Farmall H and this (they came out perfect):

Right Tool for the Job...

 

[MultiMow]

This I have posted before, might be a quite oversized compact but there no reason you can't have similar solution on a more proper compact tractor.

2018.03.07 Valtra T254 Versu with DALEN snowblower 2118 - YouTube

Antonio Cararro has a bidirectional compact in the TT series... they're just horribly limited in North America. Currently, I only know of one dealer in western Kentucky. Not sure about Canada or Mexico.

If my next purchase is a new tractor, it will definitely be an AC TT series.