Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong

[MossRoad]

From the factory or do I have to fab it up myself at my expense?

For less than $400 you can buy a universal skid steer adapter and weld it to a Power Trac QA plate. It's not that hard, or expensive.

 

[MossRoad]

how come no one has mentioned the avant? they also have an all electric version. and 190+ attachments

e series – Avant loaders

i believe they have most of the original boxes ticked depending on the model, i'm sure they are expensive

i work part time in the summer putting up tents we use my little kubota b2650 to put up and take down as well as pull stakes. there is another company that does lots of tents and they have an avant to do the same things. with some practice i can do everything they can, though it is tougher to see. however when i'm done i can still go home and cut the grass.

i agree with gladehound and others that a tractor is more versatile

Avant has been mentioned in the past. They are expensive, yes. And they do have mowers.

 

[MossRoad]

"All tractors are a poor loader platform..." - All is a strong statement. Yes, the visibility of on the PowerTrac is a plus, but I can get similar visibility on my tractor by standing on the platform - my controls are all in easy reach. ...

I don't think I could stand on a tractor peering over the hood and operate in the conditions that I operate in and not fall over. Just not possible.

 

[airbiscuit]

I have to admit that those Power Tracs are pretty darned cute. And with tiny wheels and tires, that 1 speed hydro that stalls out with the occasional random spinning wheel, and the proprietary attachments, it makes me wonder how this machine could be any more perfect. (maybe if they had an actual dealer network?)

Truth be told, I'd actually like to have one for around the yard, but to assert that they are better than ever CUT ever made seems a stretch to me.

 

[MossRoad]

I have to admit that those Power Tracs are pretty darned cute. And with tiny wheels and tires, that 1 speed hydro that stalls out with the occasional random spinning wheel, and the proprietary attachments, it makes me wonder how this machine could be any more perfect. (maybe if they had an actual dealer network?)

Truth be told, I'd actually like to have one for around the yard, but to assert that they are better than ever CUT ever made seems a stretch to me.

Sure, pick the smallest model out there.... :laughing:

Bring out the TC21D and let's move 20 yards of mulch or gravel head to head with the PT425 a hundred yards. Then we'll plow some snow, mow the lawn, and brush hog a field of 13' thistle. :laughing:

Hahahaa, enough chest pounding!

The TC21D was on my short list back in 2001. It came in 2nd in my comparison. I really, really liked that tractor. It was, by far, the most comfortable and ergonomic machine I tested. I fit on it really well and everything was where it should have been. Excellent machine. :thumbsup: If I had gone with a conventional tractor, I'd have picked it easily over the JD4100, the Kubota BX2200, and the Cub Cadet 7205.

I chose the PT425 for several reasons. Out front implements and the QA were a big point. The PT had almost twice the hydraulic GPM (which should be expected, given the design), it was smaller, narrower, lighter, and lifted more weight at the pins. It is shorter at about 5'5" to the top of the canopy (I can set my nose on it and look over it). It has a steel canopy, which is not only a ROPS, but a FOPS. Protects your head in the woods. It has a tighter turning radius, can fit through a 4' gate. I can pop the forks on and pick up the 60" mower sideways, carry it through the gate, drop the forks, pick up the mower, and be mowing again in about 60 seconds. It's little stuff like that that drove my decisions, and I don't regret them. :thumbsup:

 

[4570Man]

If you’re moving 20 yards of material over that distance I’m going to use my dump truck and you can’t load it with a 60” lift height so you’ll loose hands down. I usually position my dump truck besides the pile so I have to drive in a V shape to load, so that game really boils down to bucket size. If we’re mowing the yard I’m going to use my Grasshopper and again you’ll loose. Plowing snow isn’t a tractors strong point so you might win that if it’s a fair comparison. A tractor is actually pretty good at bush hogging a field. The hydraulic drive mower suffers a lot of inefficiency loss and makes a lot of dust for the operator. A one trick pony really has to have the ability to use an implement off both ends. I like my CTL a lot, but it can’t do every job my tractor can. I do agree that a compact tractor is designed poorly, but there’s no cost effective replacement.

 

[CalG]

You know, big tires (large diameter) roll over obstacles and snow much easier than smaller diameter tires do.

It's a law., physics is like that....

 

[aczlan]

If you want a dedicated pulling machine you want a geared transmission with no toque converter, and big ag tires. Those aren’t desirable features for a loader machine.

Funny, very few modern articulated wheel loaders, or industrial grade TLBs have ag tires and most (99%?) have a torque converter in the transmission ( until you get up to the ones that are big enough to be electric drive).

Aaron Z

 

[4570Man]

Yep because the industrial tires are tough and support a lot of weight. The toque converter transmissions make for fast direction changes and precise movements. The industrial tires don’t have as good if traction on loose dirt and the toque converters eat power. Not a very appealing option for a field tractor. The best loader and the best tractor can never exist in the same machine.

 

[CalG]

Yep because the industrial tires are tough and support a lot of weight. The toque converter transmissions make for fast direction changes and precise movements. The industrial tires don’t have as good if traction on loose dirt and the toque converters eat power. Not a very appealing option for a field tractor. The best loader and the best tractor can never exist in the same machine.

This is truth!

 

[npalen]

DONMEZLER TARIM (AGROHELP'S) SIYIRICI KATLANIR KEPCE 332 251 66 32 - YouTube
Seems like this rear mounted loader has a lot of advantages over a FEL.

 

[4570Man]

Except being backwards and appears to have the controls outside the tractor.

 

[gladehound]

Sure, pick the smallest model out there.... :laughing:

Bring out the TC21D and let's move 20 yards of mulch or gravel head to head with the PT425 a hundred yards. Then we'll plow some snow, mow the lawn, and brush hog a field of 13' thistle. :laughing:

Hahahaa, enough chest pounding!

I'll take that challenge! Dollar for dollar the $18K PT-1430 is most comparable to the $19K I paid for my tractor/loader. Once you add shipping for the PT it's the same. The PT-1430 is in no way comparable to my tractor.

Lift capacity - PT 1200 pounds, tractor ~2700 pounds - That's not even half as much!!!!
Lift height - PT 6 feet, tractor ~9 feet - 6ft... is SCUT territory!!!
Horse Power - PT 30, Tractor 45 - and that's at the engine how much can the PT actually use being hydro compared to my gears?
weight with loader & filled tires - PT 2,560 pounds, tractor ~5,000 pounds w/o fill 6000 with - less than half the machine!

You want to move 20 yards of mulch 100 yards? Less than 20 trips for me with a heaped bucket. I'll have a coffee while I watch you finish your pile. I don't even need to use my 50% higher top speed.

Want to plow snow? with a 6 foot 1 yard bucket up front and an 8 foot power angle blade in back I plow going both ways, don't even turn around. At 7,500 pounds (with attachments, I'll push way, way more snow than the 2,700 pound PT before loosing traction and with gear transmission I get most of my 45 hp to the ground) My push speed is power limited, I put way more power to the ground so I know the PT can't approach moving snow as fast. And I can go right through 40" of wet snow which would leave the PT stranded!

Brush hogging? I'm getting way more power out of the PTO than a 30 hp hydro set up. Not even comparable.

There are a few things the PT-1430 will do better, where finesse is needed and capacity doesn't matter. Hydro trans is nice for loader work but for the initiated the hydraulic reverser can be operated just as quickly. Overall, for big jobs the capacity of the equal priced tractor is so much higher that any slight inefficiency from being gear is overcome.

I acknowledge that to get the capacity advantage with the tractor you need to go with a gear transmission in an "economy" tractor. Otherwise you'll get at CUT with similar capacity to the PT at the same price. But dollar for dollar, the hardest working CUTs available trump the PT. And such tractors are easier to obtain than a PT so it's a fair comparison.

 

[MossRoad]

If youæ±*e moving 20 yards of material over that distance I知 going to use my dump truck and you can稚 load it with a 60 lift height so you値l loose hands down. I usually position my dump truck besides the pile so I have to drive in a V shape to load, so that game really boils down to bucket size. If weæ±*e mowing the yard I知 going to use my Grasshopper and again you値l loose. Plowing snow isn稚 a tractors strong point so you might win that if itç—´ a fair comparison. A tractor is actually pretty good at bush hogging a field. The hydraulic drive mower suffers a lot of inefficiency loss and makes a lot of dust for the operator. A one trick pony really has to have the ability to use an implement off both ends. I like my CTL a lot, but it can稚 do every job my tractor can. I do agree that a compact tractor is designed poorly, but thereç—´ no cost effective replacement.

You can't take the dump truck across a lawn, into a garden, to the flower beds, through the woods, or into a back yard through a 4' gate. Most homeowners have mulch, black dirt, landscaping materials, etc... delivered to the home......... and dumped in the driveway or close by. From there, we have to move it. These types of machines are more efficient for moving that material.

 

[MossRoad]

You know, big tires (large diameter) roll over obstacles and snow much easier than smaller diameter tires do.

It's a law., physics is like that....

Again, let's find a similar weight conventional tractor and follow me into the woods and see what goes over what easier.

 

[4570Man]

You can't take the dump truck across a lawn, into a garden, to the flower beds, through the woods, or into a back yard through a 4' gate. Most homeowners have mulch, black dirt, landscaping materials, etc... delivered to the home......... and dumped in the driveway or close by. From there, we have to move it. These types of machines are more efficient for moving that material.

I’ve actually done all the above except the 4’ gate. In either case I wouldn’t be bragging about your ability to move material 100 yards 1/4 yard at a time. The 100 yards really took away your advantage. You might beat a similar sized machine loading in tight conditions, but that game is won by ground speed and bucket size.

 

[gladehound]

I don't think I could stand on a tractor peering over the hood and operate in the conditions that I operate in and not fall over. Just not possible.

Look at the guys who operate the stand behind mowers on steep banks. They have no problem. As long as the ergonomics of the machine work well for the standing position it's easy and secure. In my case my heals lock into a spot on each side of the transmission hump and my legs straddle the steering wheel. So I have 4 points of contact with my feet / legs. I acknowledge that this works so well because the ergonomics of my particular machine fit my 6'3" frame well in the standing position and that if I were much shorter, the position wouldn't work as well. But I don't need to stand to see the tips of my forks. I can see them on the ground from the seated position. If I stand, I can see the full attachment up front. I typically only stand up when I need that little extra visibility or if digging out a stump with the stump bucket. Then I stand the entire time for skid steer like visibility.

One of my CUT criteria when shopping was visibility and I didn't even look at anything that didn't have a seat height higher than the front of the hood. The JD CUTs are terrible. The seats are so low and hoods so high (with exception of the JD 110 which is awesome)

After purchasing my tractor, I build brackets to raise the seat a little more. This was to fit my long legs in the seated position, but it had the added benefit of increasing seated visibility.

 

[GirlWhoWantsTractor]

If the Power-Trac had some kind of hydraulic rear hitch, or even an electrically actuated rear hitch, I probably would have coughed up the cash and learned how to work on it. Although I agree some attachments are better on the front, some are better on the rear. And dragging an attachment behind with no ability to lift it really limits the usability.

Like I said before, I think PT is a major step in the right direction of rethinking tractor design for non-farmer landowners. With a few more changes, it could be a nearly perfect solution.

Still waiting for an all-electric tractor.

 

[Xfaxman]

Sure, pick the smallest model out there.... :laughing:

Bring out the TC21D and let's move 20 yards of mulch or gravel head to head with the PT425 a hundred yards. Then we'll plow some snow, mow the lawn, and brush hog a field of 13' thistle. :laughing:

Hahahaa, enough chest pounding!

--------------------------------

I chose the PT425 for several reasons. Out front implements and the QA were a big point. The PT had almost twice the hydraulic GPM (which should be expected, given the design), it was smaller, narrower, lighter, and lifted more weight at the pins. It is shorter at about 5'5" to the top of the canopy (I can set my nose on it and look over it). It has a steel canopy, which is not only a ROPS, but a FOPS. Protects your head in the woods. It has a tighter turning radius, can fit through a 4' gate. I can pop the forks on and pick up the 60" mower sideways, carry it through the gate, drop the forks, pick up the mower, and be mowing again in about 60 seconds. It's little stuff like that that drove my decisions, and I don't regret them. :thumbsup:

And this is what you look like!!

 

[MossRoad]

I致e actually done all the above except the 4 gate. In either case I wouldn稚 be bragging about your ability to move material 100 yards 1/4 yard at a time. The 100 yards really took away your advantage. You might beat a similar sized machine loading in tight conditions, but that game is won by ground speed and bucket size.

Yeah, OK. :laughing: