Chain Saw Advice

CurlyDave · Mar 8, 2006

I agree on the Stabil.

If you get the two-stroke oil it has fuel stabilizer in it already, but adding a dose of Stabil makes it last a good long time.

I have both small two-stroke and small 4-stroke engines in lawnmowers, pressure washers, generators, etc. For 4-stroke I add a double dose of Stabil, for 2-stoke, the special purpose dyed oil and then a single dose of Stabil.

When gas was 50 cents Stabil seemed expensive. Now that gas is $2.50, $10.00 worth of Stabil treats 80 gallons, and it doesn't seem so bad.

osprey · Mar 8, 2006

My words were never meant to start an argument 

No argument here,that was not even remotely on my mind. I likewise enjoy talking and sharing experiences here on this particular thread and forum in general. I enjoyed the conversation. I never ever heard of "charring" the ends of the posts,that will be something I will tell my farming friends back here in the Ohio Valley area.

Thanks for the discussion. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

BarryinMN · Mar 8, 2006

I was at a sawmill a couple of years ago and watched logging trucks (Semi's) pull in and be off loaded with a huge payloader grapple thing. The sawmill wanted 8" logs 8' straight & long to fit in the debarker and other production machinery without jamming.

$500 per load to the logger who left with a check.

The sawmill sorted the raw stock and separated board grade hardwoods for a sibling furniture making operation. Other logs outside the size spec went into a 40 acre inventory.

This mill focused on hardwood pallet parts and pallet manufacturing. Their primary goal was xxx board feet per hour production.

To me the interesting points were that the logger was not particularly interested in the type of wood on the truck and the sawmill wanted continuous production and would take furniture grade logs without a second thought to keep the beast fed.

The $140 cord wood supplier said he would come over with his splitter and split for free some Birch my little 15 ton splitter stalled out on. This house has dual fuel forced air wood/fuel oil furnace.

Next time around a corn burner and propane or electric dual fuel might be the ticket.

Anyway back on chainsaws I use 3 Jonsruds around the Farm: a 16" 40cc class and a pair of 65cc that are scary fast.

John_Mc · Mar 11, 2006

CurlyDave -

You sound like someone who has taken the time to think out their approach to their land and what they want to accomplish on it. That's an important step that many folks overlook. I'm sorry you suffered an attack here on this board, especially since it seems someone was jumping to unfounded conclusions. From your posts, you strike me as someone who is concerned with your land and with "doing it right". Good luck to you and don't forget to take the time to enjoy the process.

On the chainsaw issue: Here in Vermont, most of the people I've seen who spend much time in the woods with a chainsaw seem to settle on one of the following brands: Husqvarna, Jonsered, or Stihl. There are probably other good ones, but that's what seems to hold up well for folks around here. Each of them make a variety of levels of saws in any one size range. I'd advise taking a step up from the entry-level, homeowner end of the range. They are still good saws (I don't think any of these three make junk), but the higher end ones have some better features (including better vibration damping) and tend to be more durable and more repairable.

I think you are on the right track with a 16" bar. Longer bars are more fatiguing, and can be awkward in tight spaces or when limbing. As someone else noted, you can still get down more tree than you are apt to want to handle with a 16" bar. I would also recommend some thought on engine size. 50cc engines are a good match for a 16" bar, especially when paired with a .320" pitch chain. You can go smaller in engine and save a few ounces, but in my experience the ounce saved in this particualr size range don't make up enough for the power lost.

If you don't mind my drifting into another topic: There are much safer ways of dropping a tree than pulling it over with your tractor. Not to say you should never do that, but that should be one of the last tools you reach for, not the first thing you try. It's really worth getting some good training in chainsaw use and maintenance. Helpful tips from a friend can be nice, but an organized training workshop is well worth the effort. One of the better ones I've seen is Soren Erikson's Game of Logging I've been through 3 of their four levels of chainsaw training and found each of them highly worthwhile. They cover precision directional felling, safety (in use of the chainsaw and in planning your cut), basic maintenance, and dropping "difficult" trees with back or side lean, amoung other topics.

I had little experience with a chainsaw. I sought out advice from experienced friends (even one who was a logger). I finally decided that I knew just enough to kill or maim someone (probably myself), and that I wanted to be around to see my kids grow up, and have use of all my limbs while I did so. As you can probably tell, the training made quite an impact on me.

I didn't see much on their website about organizations offering the training out in your neck of the woods, but it migh tbe worth touching base with them to check. At the very least, they might be able to recommend a similar organization in your area. I also know that some of their trainers have traveled to other states on occasion to offer training.

John Mc

markct · Mar 12, 2006

( I am thinking that it will be a lot safer to notch and backcut most trees only to the point where I can pull them over with the tractor & a 45 foot 3/8" chain. What do you folks think? )

i think ya will be in for a rude awakening the first tree ya pull over with that 45 ft chain, most trees are alot taller than ya would think, i just helped a friend cut down a couple trees saturday that were over 70 ft tall when we measuered them on the ground. they were very close to a his house and leaning towards it, thats why we wanted them outa there since they wernt very healthy, we notched them then put some tension on them with about 150 ft of cable and a snatch block then did the final cut from the backside and everyone went exactly where we wanted it to. on thing to note tho is that we were pulling with my 100 hp 11,000 lbs for tractor, so we had a pretty good advantage on the tree, with a 3000lbs tractor the tree might have been able to overcome the tractor and send it backwards very fast, i saw the aftermath of a for 8N that had that happen, it wasnt pretty

tenacrewoods · Mar 12, 2006

Hello! CurlyDave
I spent about a year (last year) looking at chainsaws,lots of info at www.arborist.lawnsite.com Anyway I alway used the cheap boxstore $100 saw so this time I decided to buy one to last. I always heard Stihl was the best and that Husqvarna and Jonsered was a close second but Husky is about $100
or more cheaper for the same size & quality saw. Any of these in the lower priced saw has a high carbon (plastic)
cylinder sleeve,even the $200-250 Stihls.
I chose a Husqvarna 353 that I got for $289, the same in the others would have been $450 or more. there is a Husky 350
that is a really great saw, it still has the (plastic) cylinder but has a metal sleeve,I think around $239 & up. On the site
I mentioned above its 50/50 split but up north I think there were more Husky's then Stihls being used. I really liked the Stihl but honestly couldn't afford it and now that I own 3 Huskys I wouldn't buy any other new saw. I do own 11 saws,
5 Homelites,2 Macs & 1 PoulanPro 4820AVHD & the 3 husky's.
The 353 can use a 16" 18"or 20" the 350 can use a 16" 18"
0r 20" but the 350 is pushing it w/20" You can look at the 350
at Lowes to get a feel for the Husky,both saws weigh about
the same about 3.3 HP and will last forever if maintained right.
If you want to PM or email me I'll give you more site to look at all these saws. Good Luck!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

turnkey4099 · Mar 13, 2006

There is a problem with using a bull rope/chain/cable to guide the tree. Once it begins to fall, all strain on the chain disappears, the tree falls faster than you can keep up. Best you can do is keep it from going the wrong way but forget any idea of guiding it on the way down.

I have resorted to hanging 5 gallon buckets of water in the middle of the cable. That helps but not nearly as much as I had hoped.

Harry K

1948berg · Mar 13, 2006

A safe way is to make a felling jack, this one pushes with the force of one ton, or to use a special lifting tong as shown on the pic.

http://www.anton.no/images/ARBORIST/stalpen2_thumb.jpg
http://www.anton.no/images/ARBORIST/tannstang_thumb.jpg
http://www.anton.no/images/ARBORIST/FELLESAK.JPG
http://www.anton.no/images/ARBORIST/FELLESA1_thumb.jpg
http://www.anton.no/

SnoFalls · Mar 13, 2006

My chain saw experiences ...

well, I've bought 3 over the last 10 years. All 16", all "poulan" variants (wild thing, etc). I get the cheapos at costco (or whatever is a local discount box), and pay about $80-$100 each *new*. Sometimes I'll pick up a spare chain for one, or when garage sailin find the same thing with chain and bar for $5. I now have 5 bars, 8 chains, and 2 running powerheads. I take the bucket (5 or so) of dull chains down once a year to be sharpened ($20 aint worth my time to bother sharpening 5-6 chains).

With the cheapo price, and the fact all bars/chains interchange, I never cut with a dull chain, always have a bar and chain to cut free if needed, and always have a saw that'll start with 3 pulls.

In ten years I've probably spent $400 for my "collection", so $40 a year ...

That being said, I could use a 24" saw on occasions, so I expect I'll pick up a used stihl (44 class?) soon ...

CT_Tree_Guy · Mar 13, 2006

There is a problem with using a bull rope/chain/cable to guide the tree. Once it begins to fall, all strain on the chain disappears, the tree falls faster than you can keep up. Best you can do is keep it from going the wrong way but forget any idea of guiding it on the way down. 

I'd just like to offer my view that it is a properly executed hinge that controls the direction of fall. Again, a good rule of thumb is to have the hinge be about 10% of the diameter of the tree, and the notch cut about 1/4 of the diameter.

Some species hinge better than others, and will therefore allow you to control greater and greater amounts of side lean. Hickory hinges extremely well, with most of the other hardwoods close behind; oak, maple, birch, beech and ash, maybe in about that order. Woods like pine, spruce, hemlock, poplar and willow don't hinge as well, but will still control the tree quite well in cases of back-lean, and to a lesser extent, side-lean.

It is astonishing how well a hinge in a hickory or oak will hold; depending on the amount of side-lean, you can often pull these trees over at up to 90 degrees from their "natural" lean. It is common and advisable to leave the hinge slightly thicker, maybe 15% of the diameter, on the part of the hinge that will be subject to tension forces as the tree is being pulled over (the part of the hinge "away" from the lean).

Of course, if there's a place for the tree to land, almost any tree can be pulled over 180 degrees from its natural angle of lean. The better the species hinges, the more lean can be overcome by pulling directly opposite it; probably as much as 40 degrees. If a tree cannot be felled in the direction of its natural lean, it's always best if you can pull it in the exact opposite direction from its natural lean; but again, a properly executed hinge (in a healthy tree) will do an amazing job of controlling the direction of fall. Experience will tell you when you're asking too much of a hinge.

As always, if you're not pretty darn sure how the hinge will behave, don't attempt the job. And be very aware of the soundness of the tree. Rotted trees do not hinge well AT ALL.

John

Clyde · Mar 13, 2006

CT - you'll always have job because of physics challenged guys like me. I've witnessed a professional pull an oak in the opposite direction from an approx 15 degree lean over a road. This tree had all of a 15 degree lean if not more. This was a white oak and with a 30" base. I fretted over dropping this tree way too long and one day while filling up with fuel at a service station - innocently struck up a conversation with a logger. I wasn't asking for favors and provided I never met the guy before, I wouldn't have gotten one anyway. I explained the tree, told him where my land was, and next week I got a bill for $50.00. He left the tree where he laid it down and I wanted the firewood anyway. It was more than fair in my book and a big headache gone. I sent off the check the next day. I saw him again a few weeks later at the same station and he said he was moving his equipment to a different site, drove past my property, hooked up a winch line from his skidder, and that was it. I think that if most of us are honest with ourselves, we aren't pro's and only by the graces of greater powers, we are alive to tell about it! Just my opinion guys - Clyde

John_Mc · Mar 13, 2006

( I'd just like to offer my view that it is a properly executed hinge that controls the direction of fall. Again, a good rule of thumb is to have the hinge be about 10% of the diameter of the tree, and the notch cut about 1/4 of the diameter.)

Well said (your whole post, not just the part I quoted above).

I'd like to clarify and add to the description quoted above...

The 10% of diameter rule-of-thumb for the thickness of the hinge is usually taken to be 10% of DBH (Diameter at Breast Height). So if you are cutting down near the ground on a tree that flares greatly at the stump, you don't need a hinge thickness that is 10% of this flared diameter.

Another rule of thumb that helps in gauging how deep to make your notch: The LENGTH of the hinge should be at least 80% of the DBH. If you can get 80% or more of DBH in hinge length with a shallow notch (either due to the shape of the trunk or the fact that you're cutting down in the flare of the stump), that will work fine. If after cutting your notch, the hinge length is less than 80% of DBH, your notch isn't deep enough.

Finally, I'm suprised at how many people I've run into that think it's the depth of the notch that makes the tree fall in the direction you want. This has nothing to do with it. The hinge provides the side to side guidance. A felling wedge or other mechanical means can be used to overcome a reasonable amount of back lean.

John Mc

markct · Mar 13, 2006

( drove past my property, hooked up a winch line from his skidder, and that was it. I think that if most of us are honest with ourselves, we aren't pro's and only by the graces of greater powers, we are alive to tell about it! Just my opinion guys - Clyde
)

i agree that having a pro do it is the way to go if ya dont feel comftorable. but also i think it should be realized that most trees can be taken down with proper planning, this includes thinkin over what could go wrong and how it can best be prevented, last saturday i helped a friend take down 8 trees, all of which had to go a different way than there natural lean. now we didnt just start sawing saturday morning, we had been looking it over and planning for a few weeks now. with notching and alot of cable and a pulley we dropped them all without any damage. now if we didnt have the cable, pulley, assorted clevises and chains, and my large farm tractor then this job would likely have been best left to the pros, but with the right equipment, and most importantly good planning, most trees can be taken down very predictably

CT_Tree_Guy · Mar 13, 2006

Guys - good stuff all around, as always. I sure do love this place.

John Mc, that was particularly good stuff about accounting for root flare, and the 80% rule of thumb on hinge width. And you reminded me of the many times I've observed how little hinge width is gained by going deeper on the notch. You are so right that very often the notch is made unnecessarily deep (and let's not get into felling cuts that are made at a downward angle - yow, just what IS up with that anyway?).

There are at least four reasons not to do that: a) it's much harder to judge where the felling cut will end up relative to the "vee" of the notch cut, making for a dangerous situation, b) it's farther to cut, c) wood cuts better across the grain than on the bias, and d) it makes it much harder to use wedges when they are needed to force the tree over. (Other than that, go for it. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif).

I think maybe some folks have the idea that such a felling cut will keep the tree from falling backwards, but we've already ruled that out by using the careful planning so nicely described by MarkCT, right guys? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

And I'd just like to put in one more "pitch" for having at least 3 ten-inch or 12-inch plastic wedges in your arsenal. One for starting a neutral or slightly back-leaning tree on its way, and then two more to stack together and drive in if the first one hasn't done the trick. (Bailey's and Sherrill are excellent sources for anything tree or saw related, and the Sherrill catalog is a must-have for its many, many excellent illustrations, tips and techniques). Bailey's, 800-322-4539, baileys-online.com; Sherrill 800-525-8873, sherrillinc.com - call 'em today. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Plastic wedges are also VERY handy for getting a pinched saw unstuck - not that I've ever had that happen of course. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

As always, let's be careful out there - I'm quite fond of y'all. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

John

turnkey4099 · Mar 14, 2006

Very good points. Been heating with wood for over 30 years plus helping back when I was a kid. Still learning.

I have a season of cutting coming up soon on a patch that was fire killed about 4 or 5 years ago. I have it almost clear cut now but have 7 or 8 big trees (Willow, around 36" or more DBH) to go this season. Every one of them except one have bad leans and will go where they want to with no problems. The major thing with leaners (after direction of fall of course) is the danger of a barber chair. I am going to try something new this year. Bore cutting the falling cut. Have done a lot of reading on that subject and it looks safer than the normal cut. I will of course be using my usual "heavy log chain above the cuts" before starting to cut. Have had several incipient barberchairs cutting in that patch in the past. It is a real attention getter making a falling cut and seeing the log chain 'snap tight'.

Harry K

CurlyDave · Mar 14, 2006

Well, here is the update on what happened.

I looked at Stihl and Husky at as number of stores during the week (I am still living in Northern CA, the property is in OR and we are moving up there when I retire in ~ 12 months).

I didn't want to buy in CA because I noticed that there were new emission requirements on chain saws in CA, but not in OR. Plus there is no sales tax in OR.

I went to the Husqvarna store in Grants Pass, which was a much differerent experience than the anything in CA. Anyway, at that point my top choices were Husky 346 XP or Stihl MS 260 Pro.

The guy at the Husqvarna shop said he did not even stock the 346 XP because it was too expensive for his clients. Since it had become obvious that a lot of his customers made a living, or at least extra spending money, with their chainsaws, I decided to listen to him. He said the best one for my purposes was the Husky 350e, which is this years version of the 350. He had both in stock and the 350e was about $20 more, not a huge amount.

Anyway I walked out with a 350e with 18" bar, a case, a helmet and an extra chain. The saw was $299. This compared favorably with prices on the internet, where the 350, with no "e" was $299, but came with 2 extra chains. I only got one extra chain, but got it the day I wanted it and supported a local merchant, who will service it. Instant delivery too.

This seems perfect for my purposes. The store owner claimed that it was the easiest starting saw in the extire store, and the easiest one he had ever seen. While I don't have much comparison, it does start very easily, partly due to a compression release. He said that the 350e is his best selling saw, and I have no reason to not believe him. Easy starting is very important to me.

Anyway, I think I got a very good saw for my purposes, and it will probably outlast me.

I only took down three trees with it on Saturday, mostly because the it has been raining for 3 solid weeks, and the area I was working in was mostly a quagmire.

More tonight -- have to go to work now.

Curly Dave

Renze · Mar 14, 2006

The worst thing we once did was 13 years ago.. We had a huge oak in front of the house, dropping lots of leaves and trash in our garden every year.

Just to be sure we hooked 2 tractors totalling 5,5 ton to make sure we could hold it, and after sawing the last bit pulling it over to the other end.

The tractor driver misunderstood the chainsaw operator and started to pull too early when there was still a foot of tree left, pulled the 25 mm rope in two, and the tree swung back, making very, very scaring noises on the wrong end leaning towards our house, but it swung back upright.... I didnt see any guardian angels stopping the tree but it was a small miracle that it didnt crush our, and our neighbors houses.

after sitting in the bush for 10 years i had the tree sawn to boarding for my manure spreader 2 years ago. It was very fine wood, just the sawyer dulled a blade due to grenade splinters of WW2, which caused blue marks in the tree...

gemini5362 · Mar 15, 2006

I read the post by John and thought it was excellent advice. If I may I might like to add a bit and maybe disagree with one thing. The advice he gave was really top notch. I live in the Ozark Mountains in Arkansas. While I am not an expert on felling trees I have made a few mistakes and been very happy to be able to tell about them later. Chain Saws-
I have been very partial to Mcculoch chain saws. There are still a lot of the older ones without much useleft in them that are great chain saws. I have an eager beaver which I like a lot. I have let My chain saw sit in storage for three years. ( I was living overseas) came back took it out of storage and then filled it with gas followed the correct starting procedure and it fired right up. ( that is three to 4 pulls max from not used for years)
When I mix my chainsaw gas now I also mix in a preservative so that if I dont use the saw for a while the gas dont evaporate and leave varnish. I do disagree with John about the chain. I think useing a low kickback chain is a very important safety feature. They are designed to minimize chain saw kickback and to me that is the most hazardous risk with the chainsaw itself.

Felling trees. I cant agree enough with what john said about an exit route. Before I touch any tree I look around the site make sure there are no trip hazards and plan where I am going to run if i have to. When I have made my hinge I also like to set my saw down a few feet away before attempting to push the tree over. I cut a hinge too deep once and when I pushed on the tree it broke at the hinge and the tree jumped off of the stump. I didnt wait to see where it was going I just took off on my exit route as fast as i could. When I heard the tree hit the ground I stopped running. If your tractor is big enough you might want to consider pushing some of the trees over instead of cutting and for the bigger ones maybe a one time hire of a bulldozer if one can get in to the area.
Good luck with your search. I am sure you have tried ebay but if not that is a good place to look and get ideas

turnkey4099 · Mar 16, 2006

Renz - had much the same experience back when I was still thinking I knew what I was doing. Tall locust right next to the house, crawled up a long ladder tied off to my PU, made undercut, back cut and hit PU to pull - rope broke. Great, I now had the fun of crawling up that ladder again into a tree that is on the verge of falling the wrong way. This time I did it right, chain and cable.

Lesson learned. I don't use rope since then, it is all either heavy log chain or wire cable.

Harry K

firemanpat2910 · Mar 16, 2006

The first pic that 1948Berg shows reminds me of a funny story. I am on the VFD and one saturday around noon got a
call for a tree on a house. One new homeowner and his F-I-L
were taking down a Huge tree 1 ft from back of house.
wind caught it when it was cut 80% or more. pinched saw,and
leaned tree almost on the house. We tried every thing to pull
it down to no avail. Then I wrapped a chain around the tree
to make a pushing "ledge" and blocked against the house and
used the 3' ram from the JAWS of life. And pushed it right where I wanted it . Now for the funny part, We get done and no sooner than the tree hits the ground the owner is saying
thank you now can you leave before my wife gets back from the store, if she sees a fire truck in the yard Ill never hear the
end of it, and the father in law pipes in and she will probably
sell our chainsaws. We loaded up the truck and snuck out the
back dive laughing all the way.