Cattle questions

[LouNY]

Every area is going to be different as to the availability of AI technicians and what they will charge for travel and labor. Then the difficulty of catching the cows in heat and then the holding chute for the actual insemination.

With a small herd maintaining a small portable feed wagon with stanchions and handling the cows frequently would likely be the least expensive. Including feeding a pail of grain every couple of days, spreading some in a feed bunk and maybe keeping a bit in the bucket to share with all the animals.

"A study reported by Les Anderson at the University of Kentucky looked at the dollar cost per pregnancy when using bulls purchased at various prices. A $3,000 bull used for 15 cows resulted in a cost of about $100 per calf, depending on many factors such as pregnancy rate. While this may not be exact today, it can provide a ballpark idea.

When it comes to costs for AI, many beef cattle are bred using an estrus synchronization program. I am including those costs for this discussion. With a cost of about $20 for synchronization, $20-$40 for semen and about $20 if you need to hire a technician, you are at about $60-$80 without adding in labor.

With a 60% pregnancy rate, you are at about $115 per pregnancy. There are also other costs to consider, such as owning a nitrogen tank and paying to have it filled about every eight weeks, which could amount to $300-$500 per year.

There is not one way to raise cattle that is right for all situations. If your goal is to maximize genetic improvement in your cattle, and you are willing to spend some time and invest in facilities, AI is a great place to start. "

 

[paulsharvey]

Current price sheet for the most popular processor

 

[paulsharvey]

Basically $100+$1.40/# hanging

 

[LouNY]

And depending upon the cuts you wish you end up with 40-60% of the hanging weight as your take home weight.

 

[paulsharvey]

Someone mentioned mobile butchers, and I've heard of that in other parts of the country, but I haven't heard of any in N FLa.

 

[Rockbadchild]

Every area is going to be different as to the availability of AI technicians and what they will charge for travel and labor. Then the difficulty of catching the cows in heat and then the holding chute for the actual insemination.

With a small herd maintaining a small portable feed wagon with stanchions and handling the cows frequently would likely be the least expensive. Including feeding a pail of grain every couple of days, spreading some in a feed bunk and maybe keeping a bit in the bucket to share with all the animals.

"A study reported by Les Anderson at the University of Kentucky looked at the dollar cost per pregnancy when using bulls purchased at various prices. A $3,000 bull used for 15 cows resulted in a cost of about $100 per calf, depending on many factors such as pregnancy rate. While this may not be exact today, it can provide a ballpark idea.

When it comes to costs for AI, many beef cattle are bred using an estrus synchronization program. I am including those costs for this discussion. With a cost of about $20 for synchronization, $20-$40 for semen and about $20 if you need to hire a technician, you are at about $60-$80 without adding in labor.

With a 60% pregnancy rate, you are at about $115 per pregnancy. There are also other costs to consider, such as owning a nitrogen tank and paying to have it filled about every eight weeks, which could amount to $300-$500 per year.

There is not one way to raise cattle that is right for all situations. If your goal is to maximize genetic improvement in your cattle, and you are willing to spend some time and invest in facilities, AI is a great place to start. "

Just like to add one factor one need to consider is the need of having a separate paddock for the bull, (that's required at times) they can get aggressive during the breeding season and if you want to space out your calves, plus it is not recommended to get your cow pregnant at her first heat cycle so one of the two need to be isolated for that to happen. Also there is a risk for injury for the cow if done naturally. All issued one doesn't have with AI... Not saying AI doesn't have it's challenges.

 

[scootr]

We used a mobile butcher when we raised pigs in CA. It was convenient to say the least.

 

[LHF2019]

Don't forget the bookwork side of this business, it's considerable today.
I got out when the USDA proposed ear tags on every animal and bookwork tracking lineage by eartag records.

I don't think that is required and/or enforced yet. I try to keep up with it but don't know all the details. I could send my entire herd to the local(across state line) auction house with no issues. If it is "law" somewhere it would be based on herd size.

So, on infrastructure, we have feeders, and shelter for 2 right now (came with the place), and waterer. Fencing/gates, 1 acre currently, with plans to add a 1.2 acre field and 1.6 acre field, and down the road, a 2.5 acre section as well (with potential to also do an additional 2.0 and 1.6, but not sure i want to).

I don't currently have a live stock trailer, and if i add one early, it would have to be a steal of a deal, or a total POS (or a steal on a POS most likely).

I dont have any head catches, or squeeze chutes.

I run headlocks for the Dexters because that was what I was used to with the dairy. I thought with Dexters being docile and a smaller breed it would work great. Let me tell you, if your going to get a beef breed and vaccinate them or any poking prodding to them get a squeeze chute. I could not believe how unruly they are compared to Holsteins or the Jersey's. It really shocked me. I tie their head up to vaccinate them after catching them in the headlocks and they still fight to all hell. The Jersey's I can just walk beside them and stick them.

Which ties into your next question. I would prefer headlocks for breeding. Lock them all instead of dealing one at a time, or if your breeding on natural heat sorting for the one you need. However, if your thinking of synchronizing you have to give shots, now your back to the squeeze chute.

So, I meant to ask about AI, for a longer term plan. How expensive is it? My first batch of likely just 2 animals, I really think steers, but it depends on if heifers come up super cheap.

That would avoid the inbreeding problem, and the need to rotate out bulls every 3 years. I know some people don't agree, but I've largely heard that it's not terrible to breed a bull to his daughters once, but you just don't keep doing that, for multiple generations.

As stated in other posts you need to check your local area for a technician. You might find an independent or one that works for a company. Check with other cattle raisers. Beef or dairy doesn't matter. If your running a common beef breed most likely the technician will have straws available. For Dexters we buy straws every couple of years and our technician stores them. Shipping is expensive at $175 and doesn't matter whether you buy 1 straw or 200. Straws run $30/per and once these people run out and retire we will be searching for a new supplier.

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Heats. I prefer natural and have had good success with it, but also have over 30 years of experience. 3 parts to the equation. Good technician, knowing and catching a good true heat, and proper timing of breeding. You need a way to know if it is a good heat. Just walking out and catching the cow standing isn't good enough. Is she at the beginning or end of her heat. Standing heats last about 24-36 of activity but you need to catch it at in the first 12. There are signs leading up to where you know you need to pay attention. We time our breeding so all calves drop from beginning of May- first couple weeks of June. We are up to 12 that we breed gradually growing from the original 5 in 2018 when we started with Dexters. We have 100% pregnancy success rate with 98% being first service.

Timing. If I walk out to the pasture in the evening and see a turned patch I call the breeder for the following morning. Feed them in the morning and see a turned patch, call for afternoon. Then there are the tough ones. Go out to pasture and see activity. You may or may not know who is in heat. I'll go out early and see if any patches have turned and call for that morning. If I saw questionable activity at 3pm and the patch turned overnight. Probably standing 8pm-12am. Breed that morning keeps you in that 12 hour window from a standing heat. Without the patch, you go out in the morning you might call for afternoon service and you would be beyond the 12 hour window. She may not take and then your on a 2nd service 3 weeks later. Patches with a watchful eye makes for a successful breeding program.

If you synchronize you would want to patch 2.5 weeks after breeding to catch any that may not have taken and get rebred.

Patches. Growing up we used Kamars. When I got into breeding again I knew I did not want to use them. They have the ability to give false positive. They are liquid filled and a good hit might show her in heat when she is not there yet. I don't like paint. Have to freshen it up frequent and some if not rubbed off soon hardens and does not rub off efficiently leaving you wondering if a true heat. I have found these patches and absolutely love them. Expensive but well worth the cost. Once you get used to them you can discern from heat or no heat.

https://www.pbsanimalhealth.com/estrotect-breeding-indicators/p/17460/

Synchronizing has its place and have done that to with the dairy. 100% success on a group of 15 heifers using ciders. It was all done by the technician. With synchronizing it is extremely important to have the timing correct. Since exiting the dairy there are many different synchronizing programs. Used to be only one way. All the shots required will need a prescription for. If that is the route you find works for you best to find a technician that will do it for you, leaving your only requirement to have them locked up when he gets there.


Any questions feel free to ask.

 

[Rockbadchild]

For shots, the clever way my dad did it was he would have the cow in a cattle stanchion (that's all we had), he would prep the shot/vaccine while making sure the cow wouldn't see him, then he would have the shot ready in his hand, tilt his hand up (palm and syringe towards the sealing), then knock the cow with his knuckle at the location where he would admitter the shot and quickly flip his hands and give the shot, in two quick movement, tick tack, done... the cow would only react to the first knock by tensing her muscle and that was it.

 

[scootr]

Funny story; I knew an old cowboy who moved to OK and bought a 50 head of mostly wild and bred 2-6 yr old heifers for his spread. I went to visit and showed up as he was moving them through the chute for shots and worming. I was warned to stay quiet and move slow as I pushed them up the alley along the barn. Things were going fine but the old chute gate wasn't opening easy so he fetched some WD40 and worked the release and the hinges over. A few more head were moved through when the gate refused to open for a particularly large and wild heifer. I watched as he fetched the WD40 and sprayed the hinges and release again. This really agitated the heifer and she launched into the gate popping it wide open with the old man standing flat footed in front of her. She hit him square in the middle and charged out wearing him like a hat right into the wood gate about 12 ft away into the open pasture. The old man wasn't hurt, anyway said he wasn't, but I couldn't see how that didn't hurt. She was about 800 pounds and used him as a battering ram to take down the gate. I tried hard not to laugh at the picture stuck in my mind...just one of many stories I recall of gathering range cattle for branding and doctoring.

 

[kenmac]

I think I read you were going to run 4 strands of barbed wire ?
I really don't think 4 strands are going to do it, But you'll find out whether it will or not.
I run 8 strands myself . keeping a few low to keep the calves from just walking through the wire .

You also mention storing hay outside ? I keep mine in the barn. Hay stored outside will get wet, mold and go to waste . Cows tend to not like molded hay.
The ones that do store hay outdoors are the ones that plastic wrap their hay

 

[paulsharvey]

I think I read you were going to run 4 strands of barbed wire ?
I really don't think 4 strands are going to do it, But you'll find out whether it will or not.
I run 8 strands myself . keeping a few low to keep the calves from just walking through the wire .

You also mention storing hay outside ? I keep mine in the barn. Hay stored outside will get wet, mold and go to waste . Cows tend to not like molded hay.
The ones that do store hay outdoors are the ones that plastic wrap their hay

I'm not locked in on exactly how I want to fence the additional areas yet. Barb is cheap and fast, but I haven't completely decided. We ran electric when I was young, but the world moved away from that until maybe last 5 years, it seems more popular again for new set ups.

 

[LHF2019]

I'm not locked in on exactly how I want to fence the additional areas yet. Barb is cheap and fast, but I haven't completely decided. We ran electric when I was young, but the world moved away from that until maybe last 5 years, it seems more popular again for new set ups.

What's young? When I was young we ran a single electric barb through hayfields to run cattle in. You would check to see if it was working with a piece of grass. The fencers I have now I wouldn't want to do that. I've been hit with them and it's not pleasant.

We are gradually moving to woven wire on our perimeter fences but that's mainly because of cattle being a small breed with calves. Cattle on their own no issues with 4 barb perimeter and single twine electric for rotational grazing.

Where I get the bulk of our supplies from

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[paulsharvey]

What's young? When I was young we ran a single electric barb through hayfields to run cattle in. You would check to see if it was working with a piece of grass. The fencers I have now I wouldn't want to do that. I've been hit with them and it's not pleasant.

We are gradually moving to woven wire on our perimeter fences but that's mainly because of cattle being a small breed with calves. Cattle on their own no issues with 4 barb perimeter and single twine electric for rotational grazing.

Where I get the bulk of our supplies from

Electric Fence, High Tensile Fencing Supplies

Kencove Farm Fence product specialists guide you to the best supplies for your situation. Top Quality, Reasonable Prices, Fast Delivery - we want to make your fence project a fulfilling success. Kencove ships supplies and tools for electric fence, portable fence, plastic tensile rail fence, and...

kencove.com

Dad died and we sold the farm in 1991, when I was like 8 or 9(we actually didn't sell in 91, I think mom tried till 1994, but it was all down hill from 1991). So, at this point 35 years ago. We also did some with the awful temp sheep netting stuff... that stuff was the worst product, always shorting out, tangling, ecr

 

[LHF2019]

Dad died and we sold the farm in 1991, when I was like 8 or 9(we actually didn't sell in 91, I think mom tried till 1994, but it was all down hill from 1991). So, at this point 35 years ago. We also did some with the awful temp sheep netting stuff... that stuff was the worst product, always shorting out, tangling, ecr

Can't like that. We are close in age

 

[Hay Dude]

I think I read you were going to run 4 strands of barbed wire ?
I really don't think 4 strands are going to do it, But you'll find out whether it will or not.
I run 8 strands myself . keeping a few low to keep the calves from just walking through the wire .

Heck I just had typical post/rail fencing with a wire strand on top and never lost a calf/cow. I prefer woven wire fabric, but that’s not how the paddocks were set up.

You also mention storing hay outside ? I keep mine in the barn. Hay stored outside will get wet, mold and go to waste . Cows tend to not like molded hay.
The ones that do store hay outdoors are the ones that plastic wrap their hay

Lots of variables there. True hay will hold up much onger stored inside, but outside storage on pallets with a tarp for a few months is perfectly fine. Did this for many years.
Some of my biggest buyers store beef cattle hay outside. I wouldn’t suggest feeding milking cows outdoor stored hay, but beef? Heck that’s how 75% of the hay is stored here. Outside, maybe with a tarp on rock or pallets.

When I put a bale in the feeder, it’s sitting outside for at least 1-2 weeks. Hay in net wrap holds up very well outside.

 

[Hay Dude]

Just like to add one factor one need to consider is the need of having a separate paddock for the bull, (that's required at times) they can get aggressive during the breeding season and if you want to space out your calves, plus it is not recommended to get your cow pregnant at her first heat cycle so one of the two need to be isolated for that to happen. Also there is a risk for injury for the cow if done naturally. All issued one doesn't have with AI... Not saying AI doesn't have it's challenges.

All ours were done AI

 

[Hay Dude]

So, I meant to ask about AI, for a longer term plan. How expensive is it? My first batch of likely just 2 animals, I really think steers, but it depends on if heifers come up super cheap.

That would avoid the inbreeding problem, and the need to rotate out bulls every 3 years. I know some people don't agree, but I've largely heard that it's not terrible to breed a bull to his daughters once, but you just don't keep doing that, for multiple generations.

Do you have a local University that runs an AG/animal husbandry campus nearby? That’s where we got ours from (U. Penn) Students along with an “old hand” would do AI cheaper.

 

[paulsharvey]

Do you have a local University that runs an AG/animal husbandry campus nearby? That’s where we got ours from (U. Penn) Students along with an “old hand” would do AI cheaper.

Yes, University of FLa has a beef research unit about 30 minutes west of here.

 

[Hay Dude]

Yes, University of FLa has a beef research unit about 30 minutes west of here.

Tell them your plans. I bet they would help you