Buying Decision....

[rfengr]

Hi Everyone,

I am rather new to this world of tractors, but I have given up trying to maintain my 3+ acres with a garden tractor! Hence, in exactly 1 week I will be ordering a Jinma with FEL and Backhoe. In fact, I am driving from Seattle to Oregon next Thursday for the transaction.

I already have a self powered rough cut mower (swisher) and will also be looking into a 3-point post hole digger with 12" auger, 4' Box Blade, 4' Landscape rake, Carry-All fork, and thumb for the Backhoe.

Now... the dilemma! I have narrowed it down to either a Jinma 284 or a 354. Now, I understand the 354 is around 6" longer, 6" wider, a little taller, 7HP more powerful, and about 400lbs heavier. Ok.. its the 284 on stearoids with a slightly bigger engine.

I will be clearing land, using the FEL and box blade a lot. Moving debris to burning piles with the backhoe/thumb. Digging the occasional ditch or post hole, and a lot of brush cutting. Throw in a little stump removal. The land is mostly a gentle slope, with a few flat areas. Once I get the land into shape, I would like have a small (40' x 60') garden which I will want to till each year. In other words, lots of use for a few months, then very occasional use for the rest of the tractors life.

Question 1: Will I even notice the power difference?

Question 2: Is the 354 that much more stable on hills than the 284 due to its wheelbase and width?

Question 3: THE BIG ISSUE. Shuttle shift or manual?
So what exactly does the shuttle shift accomplish? I have read that its great (or better) for use with a FEL... but nobody elaborates as to why! Can someone explain the difference in actual operation when using shuttle shift vs manual with a FEL?

I have also read that I definately want a creeper for tilling. but I wont be tilling very much or often. What about for the Box blade... again not used often.

Any help/opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You All! /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[SPIKER]

Hi RFENGR:
firdst off for 3 acres a 284 is more and MORE than enough. unless you are planning on digging out 4' stumps with it...


as for attachments. it the (284) will handel a 6' rock rake and a 6' box blade easly. for the FEL the standard ZL20 should be more than enough with the gulian backhoe (jw03) is standard fare for the Jinmas in the 254/284 range (BTW a 254 is also probably plenty big for you're land and I would think about a 224 iwht 5' impliments. the tractors are quite big, compairable to a full sized car in lenght with the FEL on and as wide as an average compact car is inside.

I would also think about a 5' finish mower though I would get KK or after market not the imported as there are some wheel & blade & belt problems though the decking of the imports are extra heavy. if you can re-hash a few bugs they are pretty indestructable. I've got a list of stuff I own with a Jinma 284, 6' box blade, JW03 hoe, 5' import RFM, 46" tiller (should be 54+" for the 284 though) (what I want yet, 6'rock rake, 6' snow blade, 6" chipper & 12" PHD.)

as for creeper vs shuttle shift. if you plan on tilling a garden EVER get the creeper same for heavy FEL useage when MOVING items. the Shuttle is great for digging & backing forwards as you switch between forwards & revers with a toss of the dash mounted lever. I haven't used one of those yet so I can't comment on how well the shuttle shift works. most say for lots of light duty FEL work they are indespensable... theshuttle sihfts are only 2 yrs old now so most of the buggs SHOULD be getting worked out of them though I haven't really heard of any major problems with em.



anyhow hope that helps.
MarkM

 

[rfengr]

Thanks Mark,

That helps a little. One thing I forgot to mention is the speed issue. With the manual/creeper, it slows to a specified .4 mi/hr. The 354 without the creeper, has its slowest speed of 1.1mi.hr. I suppose the extra torque on the 354 would help that issue when using, say, a box blade... but I am not sure.

Ok, I understand that shuttle lets you go forward and back with the flip of a lever. How much extra work is it really to shift a manual into a reverse gear? Keep in mind that I have never shifted one of these yet?

Thanks again /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[bruce1966us]

Go see Ray in Hoquiam, Wa www.coldwatertractors.com

 

[bruce1966us]

Keep in mind with the shuttle you still have to stop between changes.

 

[RonMar]

I was just recently making this same decision IRT Shuttle shift. IF I was going to use the tractor mainly as a loader, I would get it as I believe it would be a timesaver. As you run the bucket into the material you are moving and lift/tilt the bucket to fill it with your right hand, you depress the clutch and move your left hand out and down slightly from the steering wheel to shift the lever from forward to reverse, all the while keeping your attention on lifting the bucket into the carry position. Since the shuttle shift only controls forward/reverse for whatever gear you have selected, you will back out at the same speed that you went in. Without shuttle shift, your left hand would go down between your legs to the main shift lever and move it out of whatever gear you ran forward in and move it into reverse. This may or may not require that you take your eyes off the bucket you are raising to find the lever or get it into gear. In my past experience, this is the only way I have ever done it and like everything else, once you do it for a while you get pretty good at it and don't even have to think about it. The only real drawback is that the reverse ratio is different(lower) from all the forward ratios so you will back out at a different speed. If you ran into the pile in 3rd gear, you will back out at a considerably slower speed.

The reason I chose the standard transmission with creeper is that I will be using the tractor for other things, such as ripping trenches for underground irrigation pipe and running a rototiller and clearing about 5 acres of jungle(bushes, sapplings, stumps and trees). You only get the full rated pulling power in the lowest gears. To get the engine into its rated power range in 1st low, the wheel/tire speed is just over 1MPH. That dosn't sound like much but it is far easier/takes less energy to hold something in place than to try and stop it once it gets moving(I am a sailor, trust me I know this lesson well). If you are trying to drag something thru the ground(ripper/box scraper/tiller) and you encounter resistance, something is going to give in absorbing the energy of that heavy tractor doing 1 MPH. Either the object breaks, the implement/tractor bends or breaks or the tires loose traction and the wheels spin. If you approach the same obstacle in first low low(creeper) at .25 MPH then the tires have a chance to apply their full bite for full traction force which is what the tractor was designed to withstand. You are also not applying a shock load to the tractor or impliment. When clearing the brush/mowing, I would much prefer that the loader blade push up against the stump I didn't see than ram into it or that the tire CRAWL down into the depression/hole I didn't find than drop into it.

For positioning, you can't beat the precision of a slow speed approach, such as to set that post hole digger exactly over the spot you want or to creep ahead slightly once the point is started to keep the auger straight. For my situation, I saw the shuttle as limiting my capabilities.

 

[F100Panel]

Ronmar, I own both a creeper & a shuttle equipted tractor. I agree with your assesment 100%... BOTH ( shuttle & creeper ) have their place/use... What really impressed me was your explaination of the importance of SLOW ground speed in earth moving operations. I've tried several times & have never been able to put it across that well/THANKS!!!!! Ground speed is far more important than horsepower in those operations

 

[JohnS]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( The only real drawback is that the reverse ratio is different(lower) from all the forward ratios so you will back out at a different speed. If you ran into the pile in 3rd gear, you will back out at a considerably slower speed.
)</font>

I do find this an annoyance. Even when brush mowing. Most of the time, use L3 and L2, the LR, is considerably slower. Many times I switch to HR, which means another lever. Yes, just an annoyance.

For box blading (5' is easily handled by a 254/284) of trails and leveling dirt, low range gearing was fine for me. The initial tear-up, with the tines in full lowered position, creeper comes in handy when working around tree/roots. As others have said, need creeper if you have plans for a cultivator. If going 2 bottom plow, disks, and drags for garden, low range should be OK.

So, it is a compromise, and you need to decide what the primary uses will be. Given my use patterns, I think I'd choose the shuttle shift, if going to buy a new Jinma today.

 

[rfengr]

Wow. Thanks guys. I feel I now have a good idea of the difference. What I am after is versatility... time is really not a factor as I am doing this on my own property and if a task takes all day vs 1/2 day, no big deal. I chose 4' implements not so much for their size with respect the the tractors abilities, but with respect to the area it takes to store them.

That being said, I think I will be driving to Oregon to order the Jinma 284 with FEL and Backhoe with the manual transmission and creeper, separate guages, spring seat, foldable ROPS, and sunshield.
(can't beat the tax savings by driving to Oregon!)

I am still debating about having the dealer assemble it and just go pick it up or having it shipped to Seattle in a crate. It seems a lot of folks have assembly issues that eventually get resolved, but take some time. Maybe having the dealer assemble and change fluids/filters to better quality ones from the start would be a good idea. Still have a week to think about it!

Thanks Again, this board is a fantastic resource!


/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[RonMar]

You should really give Ray at coldwater tractors a call(see link to his website farther up this thread). His assembled tractor price for a 284 was less than most crated tractor prices I have seen quoted. The basic 284 that he sells now(see first picture on his website) comes with a one piece lift-up hood, new single gauge cluster, folding ROPS and sunshade. The only real difference I see from the LE model you see advertised around is that the ones he sells have the metal fenders, in tank hydraulic strainer and fixed seat(he said he could add a spring seat). You will have to do the first fluid change yourself and his parts warranty is shorter than most. He does do delivies.

He makes the loaders onsite out of off-the-shelf components(need another cylinder or hydraulic hose, call northern hydraulics and you can have one in a day or two). His loader is a basic 3 cylinder design(one cylinder for the bucket), but the structure looks more than adequate to do the job. I went and looked at one of his 284's with a loader last week. Liked it(and the price so much I wrote him a check right there for one. Hopefully it will be delivered next week

 

[rfengr]

I gotta be honest. I don't get a good feeling from his web site. I do not have good confidence that any actual engineering was involved in the FEL. More like the old system of build-it, break it, improve it.... repeat. (rather like the big three did for american car engines before they had a computer model). That may be fine for a homebrew item.... but not for my new tractor.

Also... I sent an email to said dealer last week... maybe it ended up in the bit bucket somewhere, but I never got a response. Alternatively, the dealer in Oregon has been extremely helpful and understanding, taking time to answer emails and explaining on the phone. Couple that with a special he is running in June AND about a thousand dollars in tax savings.... well... you get the idea. Plus a very informative web site.

Unless someone comes up with some reason not to buy it in Oregon, I am going here:

http://www.tractorconnection.com/index.html

I get a good feeling for knowledge and service. Am I incorrect?

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Alan

 

[JohnS]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">(
I chose 4' implements not so much for their size with respect the the tractors abilities, but with respect to the area it takes to store them.
)</font>

I'd would take another look to see if there is anyway you can store 5' implements. For the box blade and rake, you would want to cover the width of the rear tires. Same thing if a mower or brush cutter is in your future. In the long run, I don't think you will be happy with putting the smaller 4' implements on a 254/284.

 

[greg_g]

I agree wholeheartedly with JohnS, that in the long run you'll be disappointed - and underserved - by four foot implements behind that sized tractor.

Consider this the word of experience, quickly learned after going from a JM254 to a KM454. I had five and six foot implements with the Jinma, but they were almost like toys behind the KAMA. I soon traded/sold them as well, now everything I have is in the six foot or above range.

Another thing is that the Jinma is a Cat 1 tractor. Many 4 foot implements are Cat 0

//greg//

 

[bruce1966us]

I don't remember anyone on this forum that has had anything negative to say about Ray. Many have bought from him and are very happy. I have sold many of his loaders and they are great. I have one on a 224 right now. But, it's your money! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[rfengr]

Point taken. I guess I will have to build another storage shed or make the shed for the tractor larger in order to accomodate some 5' implements. Its funny, but up until now that was a huge task. I am not accustomed to thinking that I HAVE a tractor... and that preparing the ground for another shed won't be such an ordeal (previously done all by hand). Comparing prices between all the dealers people have recommended show prices all pretty much in the same range with not a lof of difference (after you remove the tax). Some deliver, some dont. I have a double axle 7000lb car hauler so getting it is just a day drive.

Who out there has built from a crate and who just had it assembled? What were your experiences? problems?.... I still have to decide to assemble or not. I am handy with a wrench... have rebuilt and installed engines a time or two.... even restored a project car, so I am confident that I could assemble. Yet, short on time these days., so I am leaning toward an assembled unit.

Anyone want to share their triumphs and or horror stories?
(or anything I should know about my dealer?) I did call the chamber of comerce and the Oregon State District Attorneys consumer line.... and the business was clean as a whistle.

Thanks,
Alan
/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[EFC]

There are NO tax savings for Washington residents buying in Oregon. If you bring the tractor back to Washington you still owe Washington state sales tax. The state of Washington has an agreement with Oregon to disclose all large sales. You have about a 1 in three chance of getting caught and I can tell you the fines are more than the tax itself. If you don’t believe me please call WA Department of Revenue at 1-800-647-7706 and ask them. We hear from customers all the time the nightmares they went through with Washington State over Oregon purchases.

 

[JINMA224XR]

<font color="blue"> Point taken. I guess I will have to build another storage shed or make the shed for the tractor larger in order to accomodate some 5' implements. Its funny, but up until now that was a huge task. I am not accustomed to thinking that I HAVE a tractor. </font>

Hey rfengr,

On the size of the tractor, for 3 acres, a 224 or 254 should do the job, and I myself would lean toward the 254. But for myself, I have been on an extremely tight budget and so far the 224 has been completely satisfactory for me on my 7 acres. But I really wanted the 254, but that would have been another 1k for me. If you want to know the truth, I think that I may have gotten the correct size tractor for my place, in the long run.

Ashley that goes by ACM, on the forum has just completed either a 254 or 284. He is very helpful and I am sure that he will tell you about putting a crate tractor together. He is in France, but has posted on this forum recently.

On the Implements, this is my advice from experience. You need to get implements that are wide enough to cover your tire tracks..... On my 224, I can use 5 foot implements, but they have to be light duty. On a 254, you should be able to get by with 5 foot medium duty or 6 foot very light duty. Also, you need to think about the width of your rear tires, after you get them at the working width that you desire. Most owners want their rear tires almost a wide as they can get them, because it provides more stability, to prevent rollover, and rollover can happen, just from spreading a truck load of material, or when using the front end loader.

Also on your implements, a shed to cover them is really nice, but it is not an essential necessity. I grew up on a farm, and my Dad had several tractors and lots and lots of equipments. The equipment stayed outside, but the tractors, stayed in the shed. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Exception being the Combine and the Cotton Picker-- they stayed in the shed also.

All you need to get is the size of tractor for your property size, unless you are about to go larger or if you are going to be doing jobs for hire.

On the Sales Tax thing. On a Tractor, Don't pay it, unless you absolutely have to, and don't go down to the Probate Office and ask them, if you need to Pay Sales Tax either. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Once again, you should check out the prices at East Winds and some of the inland State Dealers, and the price that they charge for shipment to you or you may want to take a road trip and pick it up your self. One person just wrote to me that got a new Jinma. He drove 2200 miles to pick his up and seemed to enjoy the trip and the savings. I myself would think of it as an adventure trip. The idea of taking a plane to the dealer, and then renting a Uhaul Truck with a car hauler seems like a good idea to me. Of if you have a family, you all might want to take a driving vacation so to speak. Stop off at one of the vacation spots on the way back. It doesn't have to be all work you know, especially since you are going to be saving Thousands anyway.

Get your Tractors Running &
Have a nice day,
Joe /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[Coldwater]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I gotta be honest. I don't get a good feeling from his web site. I do not have good confidence that any actual engineering was involved in the FEL. More like the old system of build-it, break it, improve it.... repeat. (rather like the big three did for american car engines before they had a computer model). That may be fine for a homebrew item.... but not for my new tractor.

Also... I sent an email to said dealer last week... maybe it ended up in the bit bucket somewhere, but I never got a response. Alternatively, the dealer in Oregon has been extremely helpful and understanding, taking time to answer emails and explaining on the phone. Couple that with a special he is running in June AND about a thousand dollars in tax savings.... well... you get the idea. Plus a very informative web site.

Unless someone comes up with some reason not to buy it in Oregon, I am going here:

http://www.tractorconnection.com/index.html

I get a good feeling for knowledge and service. Am I incorrect?

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Alan

)</font>

Alan,

First of all, thanks for taking the time to look at our website. As you can see it's just a temporary page used for basic information about our company.

Like Buck had mentioned, you might get lucky and save on paying taxes by buying in Oregon, but this doesn't always work when making a purchase this big. I'm sure this company is a great place to buy a tractor from, but adding up everything you've mentioned, there are numerous dealers within the state that could sell you the same package, for a lower price with tax included. Still saving you $1000, or more.

Having assembled a few hundred tractors myself, I can say that buying a crate tractor will more than likely come with it's share of headaches. You sound mechnically inclined, so as long as your not missing anything, you should be okay. Just something to consider.

Ray has easily manufactured over a thousand loaders over the last 6 years or so. It's take more than "trial and error" to design a quality loader. A good background in manufacturing, welding, and hydraulics doesn't hurt.


Not sure why we didn't recieve your e-mail (I double checked), but if you found our e-mail from our temporary webpage, you also saw the phone number listed below. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Which ever route you decide to take, I'm sure you'll be satisfied. This is a great group of guys on this board with alot of great information to share. We're all really just one big happy family. Figured we might as well make an account here since I'm constantly reading up on new devolopments in regards to Jinmas, or tractors in general.

Buck and RonMar, thanks for the compliments.

-Henry

 

[bruce1966us]

Henry, You left me out /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif LOL

 

[Coldwater]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Henry, You left me out /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif LOL )</font>

I had written this on the way out the door, and realized that when I was driving home. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif I don't know how I forgot you also replied in this thread. Ray has always spoken VERY VERY highly of you because you were a big part in him getting into this business, and have been a great friend to him all these years.

I may have forgotten when I initailly posted this, but Ray saw right away this morning and kindy reminded me about my mistake. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif