Building out electric on my property

[lantxinNETX]

Once I can cut the couple of hundred feet of right-of-way for them, my local electric coop is going to bring power on to my property for the first time. Their meter pole - the end of their construction - is going to be about 100 feet away from where we currently set up our 'camp' and park our motorhome on our 29 acres. (Ultimately - 3-5 years from now - I will take power to the back side of the property to the home site that we have selected. I am not concerned with trying to reuse the electrical that I am about to install for that purpose - in fact I may end up with two completely separate electric services into the property.)

On the meter pole below the meter I plan on putting on of these

Square D by Schneider Electric QO 200 Amp Outdoor Circuit Breaker Enclosure-QOM2E2200NRB at The Home Depot

to be used as a service disconnect only. Then I am going to bury inside of sch 40 conduit some wire to run about 100 feet to this

Square D by Schneider Electric Homeline 200 Amp 30-Space 40-Circuit Outdoor Main Breaker Load Center Value Pack-HOM3040M200RBVP at The Home Depot

which I am going to use as my load center. For this run I was thinking that 2/0 copper would be the correct choice, but I am unsure. (This run is going to be thru the woods - I plan on removing just those trees as need to allow me to get the ditch digging machine in to create the trench. I want to preserve the tree line as much as possible as it helps to shield our property from the road.)

I certainly don't expect to need 200 amp service, but given the relatively little difference in price versus 100 amp I have decided that would be the best.

I am going to (initially) have only 4 or 5 circuits in use - one of these

GE 30 Amp Temporary RV Power Outlet-U013P at The Home Depot

for plugging in the RV and several of these

GE 20 Amp Backyard Outlet with Switch and GFI Receptacle-U010S010GRP at The Home Depot

placed for convenience around the area that we are currently using. (Near my wife's cooking area, adjacent to our storage buildings, near the grill, picnic table, etc.)

The RV plug and at least one of the other outlets are going to be mounted adjacent to the load center. (I am building a 'board' using 2x4 cedar mounted to 4x4 cedar posts to hold the load center and RV outlet).
The other outlets are going to be mounted on 4x4 cedar posts set about 24 inches above the grade. For the runs to all of these outlets I am going to buy 12/2 UF wire in sch 40 conduit as well. The longest of these runs is about 75 feet.

Where my property is located is extremely rural. There is no local building authority from whom I have to get permits. In fact the coop engineers told me that it is perfectly acceptable for me to do 100% of the work on my side of the meter.

My only real questions are about the size of the wire to use between the service disconnect and the load center and exactly what to use for the service disconnect itself.

The other choice for the service disconnect would be something like this

GE 200 amp 240-Volt Fusible Outdoor General-Duty Safety Switch-TG4324R at The Home Depot

But I'm not sure that I understand the advantage of this over the other unit I was considering for the service disconnect.

I would appreciate any feedback and comments that you would like to share.

Thanks!

Martin

 

[arlen4720]

For a 200 amp service, 2/0 copper won't be big enough...It would be if it were a service for a single family dwelling, but that's not what you have.
You would need 3/0 copper or 250kcmil aluminum. Also, use sched 80 conduit. Sched 80 is required for when it emerges from the ground, so I just use sched 80 all the way to avoid the "step" inside the conduit when you transition from sched 80 to sched 40. You would want 2.5 inch or even possible 3" conduit.
I don't think the outdoor panel is what you want for a "service disconnect". I just looked at it briefly, and it has "feed through" mains. So, the main breaker won't shut off the the 200 amp wires that you will be running out to the other panel. If you were going out to the remote panel with a 100 amp feeder, then no problem...you would put a 100 amp breaker in the panel and be good to go.
There is a combination meter socket, disconnect, 200 amp breaker with 3 sets of lugs available (Millbank). I put one in.12 years ago at my house, so I could feed multiple building services.

A 200 amp copper feeder to the remote panel is OK if you don't mind spending the money, but there is quite a bit of room to "value engineer" things if money is an object.
1) aluminum feeder
2) 100 or 150 amp instead of 200amp
3) direct burial wire instead of conduit.

 

[lantxinNETX]

I don't understand why 2/0 would be big enough for a single family dwelling, but not large enough for what I am doing?

Certainly not against direct bury. And I have no choice as to the meter base that the coop provides - it is what it is.

 

[Illini22]

Menards sells 4/0 with a 2/0 neutral (al). It will run 200 amps all day long (and much more). It's direct bury. When we use pipe it's always 3". Utility companies have been using this wire for over 40 years.
It's easy to splice, pull, bend and more important pretty cheap. A little over $2 a foot for triplex.

 

[arlen4720]

I don't understand why 2/0 would be big enough for a single family dwelling, but not large enough for what I am doing?

Certainly not against direct bury. And I have no choice as to the meter base that the coop provides - it is what it is.

It's an NEC thing..."load diversity" is assumed in dwelling units (for now), the reason I say "for now" is there is talk during every NEC revision to eliminate the exception. For a dwelling unit, you are allowed to calculate your wire size from table 310.15 (B) (7).

Otherwise, you will see from table 310.15 (B) (16), that 4/0 AL has a 75 deg C ampacity of 180 amps. 2/0 copper has a 75 deg C ampacity of 175 amps.

Before you buy wire, have a conversation with your local inspector. He may look at what you are doing and say O.K.

You could go with a 150 amp service, if you want to use the 4/0 AL wire. It is allot more readily available and cheaper.
Just talk to the inspector.

Before people start beating me up and telling me what will work, and what won't work....I'm a master electrician, and I'm just telling you what is legal.
I have seen inspectors reject a 4/0 feeder going out to a barn, when the whole service to the farm is fed with 4/0!!!

 

[Tractor Seabee]

Amen, Arlan. What is legal and what you can get by with where there is no inspector are two different animals. The co-op will probably do a cursory inspection to make sure it is safe before they energize. Martin indicates this is temporary for the interim till he builds a new house further away. If it is to be abandoned or only used later for outbuildings I would go to least cost now to handle expected loads of the MH & etc. Probably get by with 100A service. I do see a need for two Main breakers, just run from meter to a NEMA 3R Panel main breaker. Definitely go direct burial, no need for conduit. For the novice I would avoid alum due to the corrosion factor if the compound is not installed right. DB and the size increase combined will not raise the cost that much.

Martin, where you get your supplies they should have DeWalt or other DIY electrical manual. Worth the money and it will have all the NEC tables necessary. Good Luck with your new estate.

Ron

 

[ronjhall]

Instead of the 30 amp and 20 amp boxes why not install a standard RV hook up box. I got mine off EBAY. You can also get a 30/20 amp box from seller.
NEW Surface Mount Rainproof Outdoor 50 / 30 / 20 Amp RV Power Outlet Panel Box

 

[bandaidmd]

Once I can cut the couple of hundred feet of right-of-way for them, my local electric coop is going to bring power on to my property for the first time. Their meter pole - the end of their construction - is going to be about 100 feet away from where we currently set up our 'camp' and park our motorhome on our 29 acres. (Ultimately - 3-5 years from now - I will take power to the back side of the property to the home site that we have selected. I am not concerned with trying to reuse the electrical that I am about to install for that purpose - in fact I may end up with two completely separate electric services into the property.)



On the meter pole below the meter I plan on putting on of these

Square D by Schneider Electric QO 200 Amp Outdoor Circuit Breaker Enclosure-QOM2E2200NRB at The Home Depot

to be used as a service disconnect only. Then I am going to bury inside of sch 40 conduit some wire to run about 100 feet to this

Square D by Schneider Electric Homeline 200 Amp 30-Space 40-Circuit Outdoor Main Breaker Load Center Value Pack-HOM3040M200RBVP at The Home Depot

which I am going to use as my load center. For this run I was thinking that 2/0 copper would be the correct choice, but I am unsure. (This run is going to be thru the woods - I plan on removing just those trees as need to allow me to get the ditch digging machine in to create the trench. I want to preserve the tree line as much as possible as it helps to shield our property from the road.)

I certainly don't expect to need 200 amp service, but given the relatively little difference in price versus 100 amp I have decided that would be the best.

I am going to (initially) have only 4 or 5 circuits in use - one of these

GE 30 Amp Temporary RV Power Outlet-U013P at The Home Depot

for plugging in the RV and several of these

GE 20 Amp Backyard Outlet with Switch and GFI Receptacle-U010S010GRP at The Home Depot

placed for convenience around the area that we are currently using. (Near my wife's cooking area, adjacent to our storage buildings, near the grill, picnic table, etc.)

The RV plug and at least one of the other outlets are going to be mounted adjacent to the load center. (I am building a 'board' using 2x4 cedar mounted to 4x4 cedar posts to hold the load center and RV outlet).
The other outlets are going to be mounted on 4x4 cedar posts set about 24 inches above the grade. For the runs to all of these outlets I am going to buy 12/2 UF wire in sch 40 conduit as well. The longest of these runs is about 75 feet.

Where my property is located is extremely rural. There is no local building authority from whom I have to get permits. In fact the coop engineers told me that it is perfectly acceptable for me to do 100% of the work on my side of the meter.

My only real questions are about the size of the wire to use between the service disconnect and the load center and exactly what to use for the service disconnect itself.

The other choice for the service disconnect would be something like this

GE 200 amp 240-Volt Fusible Outdoor General-Duty Safety Switch-TG4324R at The Home Depot

But I'm not sure that I understand the advantage of this over the other unit I was considering for the service disconnect.

I would appreciate any feedback and comments that you would like to share.

Thanks!

Martin

I'm staying out of the wire size discussion but your hardware plan (panel boxes)seems like it will give you a nice setup. We have to provide the meter socket in the area where I live. If you decide to go direct bury you can still use conduit to cover the above ground wire. I have a small mobile home park and when putting in a outdoor box I run the direct bury thru a 90 thats at trench depth then up to the box with reg straight elec. conduit .

 

[Ken45101]

As I understand it, this is just for the RV area and not for something else long term, right?

RVs either use 30 or 50 amp connections. Going with extra heavy cable isn't necessary. Your only concern is voltage drop in the buried line at 50 amps or so. So a setup rated for 100a for that distance should be adequate for your needs.

We have direct burial of aluminum triplex out to the barn, a run of 150'. It's been in for 5-6 years with no problems. Direct burial should be okay as long as the backfill isn't loaded with sharp rocks or something like that.

 

[LD1]

1. Go with the aluminum feeder. It is cheaper than copper.
2. Nothing wrong with direct burial either
3. Call your Coop, you need to ask them these questions....
....3a. How much they will sell you the aluminum direct burial wire for. Then compare that to lowes/menards. My coop is FAR cheaper than any box store
.....3b. Find out what type of meter box they plan on installing. You may be wasting your time with the disconnect breaker. Our local coop switched and from now on, they use a combination box, that has the meter in the top, and breakers in the bottom, with a GFI contractor plug as well. It is a more expensive box, but they save the money in not having to go out and set up temp service, and the going back to hook up the permanent. Rather the electrical contractor can do that since the meter dont need pulled cause of the breakers.

So if they use a box like that, you dont need the disconnect.

 

[arlen4720]

1. Go with the aluminum feeder. It is cheaper than copper.
2. Nothing wrong with direct burial either
3. Call your Coop, you need to ask them these questions....
....3a. How much they will sell you the aluminum direct burial wire for. Then compare that to lowes/menards. My coop is FAR cheaper than any box store
.....3b. Find out what type of meter box they plan on installing. You may be wasting your time with the disconnect breaker. Our local coop switched and from now on, they use a combination box, that has the meter in the top, and breakers in the bottom, with a GFI contractor plug as well. It is a more expensive box, but they save the money in not having to go out and set up temp service, and the going back to hook up the permanent. Rather the electrical contractor can do that since the meter dont need pulled cause of the breakers.

So if they use a box like that, you dont need the disconnect.

Good advice... In my area, the customer supplies the meter socket, and the combination ones are a great way to go.
I love copper conductors, but it is triple the money of aluminum. Like someone mentioned above, aluminum takes more care to terminate properly, but it is so much cheaper. The 8000 series alloys that have been around for the last 20 years or so have solved allot of the problems with aluminum feeders.

 

[buickanddeere]

For a couple of extra bucks the first panel at the service can be a combo discontent and generator transfer switch and have a space for four full sized breakers .
I think this link may include the switch?

Products | Reliance Controls Corporation

Ground everything, every panel with at least a 10ft ground rod and #6 bare copper.
Only bond to earth on neutral is to be at the service entrance/utility pole. Remove the neutral to ground bonding screw in all downstream panels. You don't want neutral current flowing on the ground system.
Proper grounding is important as your estate will become a lightning magnet.

 

[arlen4720]

For a couple of extra bucks the first panel at the service can be a combo discontent and generator transfer switch and have a space for four full sized breakers .
I think this link may include the switch?

Products | Reliance Controls Corporation

Ground everything, every panel with at least a 10ft ground rod and #6 bare copper.
Only bond to earth on neutral is to be at the service entrance/utility pole. Remove the neutral to ground bonding screw in all downstream panels. You don't want neutral current flowing on the ground system.
Proper grounding is important as your estate will become a lightning magnet.

buickanddeere is alluding to it, but didn't come out and say it.... Since your service disconnect by your meter socket is going to be your service point, you will need 4 wires going to everything from there: 2 hots, 1 neutral, and 1 equipment ground. While a 10 foot grounding rod is good, they are not commonly found. A standard ground rod is 8 feet. LIke he said, bond the neutral and the ground at the service point, then they are kept separate after that...VERY IMPORTANT. When you drive additional ground rods on your downstream panels, the #6 soild copper wire will go to the GROUND BAR, NOT THE NEUTRAL BAR.
If you are going to drill a well, the well casing makes an excellent supplemental ground in addition to the ground rods.

#6 copper is the biggest that you ever have to use to go to a ground rod, but for a 200 amp service #4 is required for the grounding electrode system, and any bonding jumpers.

 

[lantxinNETX]

Thanks to everyone for the input so far.
I am rethinking the idea of 200 amp service.
The RV just takes 30 amps. 100 amp total would probably be fine.

To answer some questions and clear up some things -

The meter base that my coop provides is not a combo. They actually mentioned me putting the disconnect on the pole with the meter. I like that idea so that I can just easily kill everything basically right at the meter if needed. And they don't offer any wire for sale either.

Yes, this is possibly all going to be 'thrown away' or repurposed for the out building once the house gets built and electric service is brought to the house.

One of our design criteria for this electrical system was to try to keep the poles out of sight. As such, the meter pole is going to be about 100 feet away from where I plan on putting the load center. I realize that the run from the disconnect at the meter to the load center would be 4 wire.

And I know that I can get combo boxes for the RV and other outlets. If I had included a complete site drawing, I think you would see that having a separate RV outlet from the other outlets.

And yes, I didn't mention it in my plans, but I was going to ground everything. Thanks for the extra advise on that topic.

And keep your suggestions and comments coming!

Martin

 

[arlen4720]

Yes 100 amp is a smart move. You can put a 100 amp breaker in your loadcenter, and the wire will be more affordable (even copper), conduit would be easier if you choose to go that route. It helps to talk all this out doesn't it?