Box scraping the driveway. Grrrr!!!

[ovrszd]

You guys are missing one very simple thing, box blades are all fine and dandy for spreading out lots of material but if you want to smooth something out nice a regular 3point hitch blade is much better. The fact is you can angle it! That is what will take your washboard out and also you can put a crown on the road with it so water won't sit on your drive way when it rains and it will dry much faster!!

I have TnT on my Kubota. I use the BB 90% of the time. I can control the tailings and relocate material so much easier and faster with the BB than a rear hitch blade. I think the only attachment that will better level ground is the land plane. And for the OP, he doesn't have one of those. So his best bet is to learn how to effectively use the BB. He'll get it figured out.

 

[jesseb3@att.net]

You guys are missing one very simple thing, box blades are all fine and dandy for spreading out lots of material but if you want to smooth something out nice a regular 3point hitch blade is much better. The fact is you can angle it! That is what will take your washboard out and also you can put a crown on the road with it so water won't sit on your drive way when it rains and it will dry much faster!!

No question that there are better tools, but the OP was trying to remove washboard with a BB that he borrowed. I do wish my BB was capable of angling - tilting alone isn't sufficient for creating a crown.

 

[TripleR]

I grew up using only a back blade on roads, but several years ago switched almost exclusively to a box scraper and have similar equipment to ovrszd (Richard) and I can't remember the last time I used a blade.

I believe ovrszd touched on one of the significant details causing the OP problems as his B2620 does not have position control. I own tractors with that type 3PH and it's a bear to control. This makes it much harder, but not impossible. Like most things, it can be done with practice.

I don't disagree with the utility of a LPGS, I just can't justify one as I have a really good box scraper as well as a 10' drag scraper like the one below on my neighbor's tractor that works great for my needs.

 

[jenkinsph]

You guys are missing one very simple thing, box blades are all fine and dandy for spreading out lots of material but if you want to smooth something out nice a regular 3point hitch blade is much better. The fact is you can angle it! That is what will take your washboard out and also you can put a crown on the road with it so water won't sit on your drive way when it rains and it will dry much faster!!

Who is missing what? The rear blade was mentioned a few times.

Curious if you have a land plane grading scraper, heavy duty box blade, landscape rake and rear blade? I have a large and small of each of these and find the rear blades get the least use. Granted I don't have the best rear blades yet but there is a reason for that too, I don't find I need them enough to spend the money yet.

 

[/pine]

IMO...It is impossible to master (with any efficiency) a box blade without at least a hydraulic top link and preferably a side link too...

FWIW...
This is elementary but some may not be aware...
Most box blades have double (forward/backward) cutting blades...
...With the tractor and BB on level ground...set the top link so that both the forward and rear cutting blades touch the ground at the same time when the 3ph is lowered (neutral)...then make a mental note of the position of the top link...this will help the operator when material is blocking the view...note when either of the blades is set to cut the opposite blade is slightly off the ground and vice versa...

I have found the best way (my experience) to evenly distribute collected material is:

Set the forward blade aggressive enough to cut/collect material...when the box is full or the cut line is reached...lengthen the top link to set the bb back to the "neutral" position then pull the material to beyond the area to be filled and drop the load...pull ahead so the BB is ahead of the material...
...now set the forward cutting blade back to a slightly aggressive position (this will keep the rear blade from cutting)...lower the 3ph so the forward blade is at the desired depth of fill above the grade...then in reverse push the material backwards over the area to be filled...

...This works (for myself anyway) much better than trying to spread material from inside the box by judiciously raising the 3ph while passing over the fill area...It also eliminates the undulations (whoop-ti-doos)...

 

[ovrszd]

Lots of good stuff in this discussion. Interesting to hear how different guys approach the problems differently.

[/Pine'sB] description above is very good. With a hydraulic top link it's extremely easy and fast to make those adjustments.

Going forward with a loaded box, and wanting to start dumping, I extend my top link and let the material slide under the front blade. The reversed rear blade then starts riding up over the material evenly spreading the load and filling whatever dips are there.

Someone mentioned crowning. With a hydraulic side link that is very easy to do with a BB and leaves no row of tailings that you tend to get with a rear blade.

Another point to consider. On all 3pt attachments the cutting edge is "outside" the tractor's track. What I mean is the blade, rather than being between the front/rear axles like a commercial road grader, is behind the rear axle. That's why the front axle movement has such a large impact on what the cutting blade is doing. Sometimes causing the dips and humps that we all complain about.

A BB minimizes this because the cutting blade is relatively close to the rear axle. On a 3pt rear angling blade the cutter is much farther back. So when trying to slightly carry the rear angle blade with loose material onboard any movement of the front axle has a more dramatic effect on the result. A rear angling blade is at it's best when it's allowed to ride along on the ground with no 3pt tension on it. That's fine if, #1 your blade isn't heavy enough to cut excessive material. #2 all you are trying to do is move loose material back and forth across a surface such as a good roadbed. If trying to level grade material the BB will outwork it easily.

Larry's 10' drag scraper is a very good tool in the right hands. Especially if it has hydraulic tilt on one wheel to tip the box. If you look at his picture you see what I mean about the cutting blade being between two axles. What the front axle of Larry's JD does has very minimal impact on his drag scraper. So when he hits a hump with the cutting blade it tries to cut it off with no input from the operator. Or when the box is full and the blade comes to a low spot it automatically dumps material, again with no operator input. Makrs an inexperienced operator look like a professional. And the best part is it will move material a considerable distance.

Fortunately for us "challenged" operators, there are a multitude of tolls available. And at least one of them will make us actually look like we know what we are doing....

 

[RDrancher]

I have TnT on my Kubota. I use the BB 90% of the time. I can control the tailings and relocate material so much easier and faster with the BB than a rear hitch blade. I think the only attachment that will better level ground is the land plane. And for the OP, he doesn't have one of those. So his best bet is to learn how to effectively use the BB. He'll get it figured out.

I'll up that to 99% of the time. The other 1% of the time my wife is using the brush hog in place of a therapist. I do have a hitch blade, but it was given to me. It's been sitting in the same spot next to my shop for over five years, so I'm glad I didn't spend any money on it. I also have a land plane, but for the most part it sits right next to the blade. I'm not saying a blade or land plane doesn't have a purpose. But, I regraded a bunch of driveways and parking lots and placed over 4000 yards of gravel last year. That and a few miles of swale grading. I don't find much that I can't do with a bb.

 

[ovrszd]

I'll up that to 99% of the time. The other 1% of the time my wife is using the brush hog in place of a therapist. I do have a hitch blade, but it was given to me. It's been sitting in the same spot next to my shop for over five years, so I'm glad I didn't spend any money on it. I also have a land plane, but for the most part it sits right next to the blade. I'm not saying a blade or land plane doesn't have a purpose. But, I regraded a bunch of driveways and parking lots and placed over 4000 yards of gravel last year. That and a few miles of swale grading. I don't find much that I can't do with a bb.

So if my wife is in an ill mood I can help her get over it by hitching up the brush hog and turning her loose??

I had been wanting TnT for a few years. Just before I retired a Contractor replaced the hiway and sidewalks in front of my Army Center. They finished the dirtwork with an old Case industrial loader tractor with a 3pt Gannon BB and TnT on the back. I went out and watched this young man work for about 30 minutes. I was sold. As soon as I got my M9540 I added TnT. Amazing what can be done in experienced hands. I run a road grader so I'm a bit picky about smoothing material. Sometimes I struggle a little to achieve the standard I'm after but with patience it can be done.

 

[RDrancher]

So if my wife is in an ill mood I can help her get over it by hitching up the brush hog and turning her loose??

I had been wanting TnT for a few years. Just before I retired a Contractor replaced the hiway and sidewalks in front of my Army Center. They finished the dirtwork with an old Case industrial loader tractor with a 3pt Gannon BB and TnT on the back. I went out and watched this young man work for about 30 minutes. I was sold. As soon as I got my M9540 I added TnT. Amazing what can be done in experienced hands. I run a road grader so I'm a bit picky about smoothing material. Sometimes I struggle a little to achieve the standard I'm after but with patience it can be done.

Yep...my wife says its good therapy. I'm not about to argue. I get home from grading all day on my ctl and the tractor is sitting there with the brush hog attached and pasture mowed. She even runs the loader and bb pretty dang well.

I hear you on the industrial tractors. I cut my grading teeth on old IH, JD and Massey skip loaders (industrial tractors), cutting swales and spinning out pads in the 70's, long before skid steers hit the scene. We thought that skid steers were a kind of weird passing fad. Running the bucket with your feet?...now that's just goofy! (I still think it is.)

 

[ovrszd]

Yep...my wife says its good therapy. I'm not about to argue. I get home from grading all day on my ctl and the tractor is sitting there with the brush hog attached and pasture mowed. She even runs the loader and bb pretty dang well.

I hear you on the industrial tractors. I cut my grading teeth on old IH, JD and Massey skip loaders (industrial tractors), cutting swales and spinning out pads in the 70's, long before skid steers hit the scene. We thought that skid steers were a kind of weird passing fad. Running the bucket with your feet?...now that's just goofy! (I still think it is.)

I'm with ya on that foot thing. My Brother had a Bobcat T300. You could run the bucket with the treadles or joysticks. I always ran it by joystick. He always ran it by treadle. I could do smoother work faster than he could. He wouldn't accept that I was a better operator so I always teased him about using the treadles. I use my feet to plant myself in the seat, how am I supposed to run the bucket while doing that???

 

[s219]

I believe ovrszd touched on one of the significant details causing the OP problems as his B2620 does not have position control. I own tractors with that type 3PH and it's a bear to control. This makes it much harder, but not impossible. Like most things, it can be done with practice.

At least in my own experience, driveway gravel work is best done with the box blade all the way down in float, so it's no different on my new tractor with position control versus my old tractor without. I think the biggest factor is being able to set the angle of attack properly, and many beginners completely miss that part. So the box performs however it's going to perform with whatever top link length they dialed in when they attached it. In reality, the box behavior and performance has an entire spectrum depending on how the top link is adjusted.

I was lucky to discover the top link effect early on, when I noticed the box behaved much different in reverse (it smoothed) than in forward (it dug). I initially did my smoothing in reverse until it dawned on me how it was working. At which point I was dialing in the top link manually. On my later tractor, I prioritized getting a hydraulic top link so that I could tweak the angle from my seat.

I think the OP's other fatal flaw was dumping piles and then driving over them, which likely started the major whup-de-dip contours to begin with.

 

[jenkinsph]

Nothing like seat time to get used to a box blade. Thought I would send you guys some pics of the job I am on right now. The pipe in the background is 12" that I will install next week or so. This is the first pass for the leveling.

 

[ovrszd]

At least in my own experience, driveway gravel work is best done with the box blade all the way down in float, so it's no different on my new tractor with position control versus my old tractor without. I think the biggest factor is being able to set the angle of attack properly, and many beginners completely miss that part. So the box performs however it's going to perform with whatever top link length they dialed in when they attached it. In reality, the box behavior and performance has an entire spectrum depending on how the top link is adjusted.

I was lucky to discover the top link effect early on, when I noticed the box behaved much different in reverse (it smoothed) than in forward (it dug). I initially did my smoothing in reverse until it dawned on me how it was working. At which point I was dialing in the top link manually. On my later tractor, I prioritized getting a hydraulic top link so that I could tweak the angle from my seat.

I think the OP's other fatal flaw was dumping piles and then driving over them, which likely started the major whup-de-dip contours to begin with.

I agree.

My BB has a swinging rear blade. I pinned it once. Then removed the pins and have always ran it swinging since. The operator needs to fully understand the BB before operating it with swinging rear blade. With the rear blade unpinned if I simply drop it on the ground to "float" it will fill with material in a very short period of time and I'll be forced to pick it up with the 3pt or spin out trying to pull it. And that's with a 10K lb tractor in 4wd.

So if your BB has a fixed rear blade S219's description is valid.

 

[ovrszd]

Nothing like seat time to get used to a box blade. Thought I would send you guys some pics of the job I am on right now. The pipe in the background is 12" that I will install next week or so. This is the first pass for the leveling.

Great pics Steve!!!! Anxious to see your results.

 

[NWhomesteader]

Ok to answer a few questions, my 3 point has position control not quarter inching. The gravel was dumped somewhat in piles but that's because I was using a borrowed dump trailer (I know, I have good friends that let me borrow all sorts of stuff) and the gravel didn't come out too evenly. Nothing I could really do about that. I had considered using the BB in reverse to smooth since you would be driving on already leveled gravel which should do away with the bumps, I tried it for a minute or two but haven't been back at it yet (too many projects).

A hydraulic top link would be great but I honestly don't have enough use for it to justify something that expensive. My driveway isn't that big and I don't see it being worth it. I had considered the land plane and so has my buddy. He actually plans on getting rid of his BB and buying one. I told him great! then I can borrow it! :laughing:

I like the idea of adjusting the top link way out to get the front blade off the ground and use the rear blade to level with. I'll give that a try and see what happens. I think that is actually a big part of the problem because without adjusting the top link way out, you cannot put the 3 point into float without just removing every bit of gravel which is down and loading up the BB. Therefore I was forced to drop it to the ground and raise it up maybe an inch which caused it to be rigid with the tractor and move with the tractor as opposed to the ground.

 

[ovrszd]

Ok to answer a few questions, my 3 point has position control not quarter inching. The gravel was dumped somewhat in piles but that's because I was using a borrowed dump trailer (I know, I have good friends that let me borrow all sorts of stuff) and the gravel didn't come out too evenly. Nothing I could really do about that. I had considered using the BB in reverse to smooth since you would be driving on already leveled gravel which should do away with the bumps, I tried it for a minute or two but haven't been back at it yet (too many projects).

A hydraulic top link would be great but I honestly don't have enough use for it to justify something that expensive. My driveway isn't that big and I don't see it being worth it. I had considered the land plane and so has my buddy. He actually plans on getting rid of his BB and buying one. I told him great! then I can borrow it! :laughing:

I like the idea of adjusting the top link way out to get the front blade off the ground and use the rear blade to level with. I'll give that a try and see what happens. I think that is actually a big part of the problem because without adjusting the top link way out, you cannot put the 3 point into float without just removing every bit of gravel which is down and loading up the BB. Therefore I was forced to drop it to the ground and raise it up maybe an inch which caused it to be rigid with the tractor and move with the tractor as opposed to the ground.

You'll get it figured out. Understand, patience is your friend in these projects. No one posting here can level a pile of gravel in one pass, NO ONE. When we talk about how easy it is our description does not outline how many passes it took to get there. Patience my friend, patience.

 

[TripleR]

At least in my own experience, driveway gravel work is best done with the box blade all the way down in float, so it's no different on my new tractor with position control versus my old tractor without. I think the biggest factor is being able to set the angle of attack properly, and many beginners completely miss that part. So the box performs however it's going to perform with whatever top link length they dialed in when they attached it. In reality, the box behavior and performance has an entire spectrum depending on how the top link is adjusted.

I was lucky to discover the top link effect early on, when I noticed the box behaved much different in reverse (it smoothed) than in forward (it dug). I initially did my smoothing in reverse until it dawned on me how it was working. At which point I was dialing in the top link manually. On my later tractor, I prioritized getting a hydraulic top link so that I could tweak the angle from my seat.

I think the OP's other fatal flaw was dumping piles and then driving over them, which likely started the major whup-de-dip contours to begin with.

My answer was based on my experience with a quarter inching valve tractor which you can't put in float, to get it to float you must hold the lever down or use a strap or bungee etc., the tractor in the OP's profile is shown as a B2620, the Kubota website describes the B2620 as having a quarter inching valve.

"Usually" what works best for you and Richard works well for me "if" I am using a light weight box scraper tilted back just right or with the tail gate bolted on my LP3584, but in really soft soil or material, I can get too much gouging or move more material than wanted and need to take a bit of weight off to get good results.

I agree dumping in a pile makes it much harder and always use my bucket to spread it out a bit before using my scraper.

I don't claim to be good and from the looks of Steve's pictures, I've a ways to go.

 

[RDrancher]

Nothing like seat time to get used to a box blade. Thought I would send you guys some pics of the job I am on right now. The pipe in the background is 12" that I will install next week or so. This is the first pass for the leveling.

Nice work as always. If you get bored up there in God's Country, come on down. I'm out weeks and can't even handle all of the phone calls. You're probably the only guy I'd trust to do my jobs besides me. :thumbsup:

No offense intended Richard...I know you have a day job.

 

[RDrancher]

Ok to answer a few questions, my 3 point has position control not quarter inching. The gravel was dumped somewhat in piles but that's because I was using a borrowed dump trailer (I know, I have good friends that let me borrow all sorts of stuff) and the gravel didn't come out too evenly. Nothing I could really do about that. I had considered using the BB in reverse to smooth since you would be driving on already leveled gravel which should do away with the bumps, I tried it for a minute or two but haven't been back at it yet (too many projects).

A hydraulic top link would be great but I honestly don't have enough use for it to justify something that expensive. My driveway isn't that big and I don't see it being worth it. I had considered the land plane and so has my buddy. He actually plans on getting rid of his BB and buying one. I told him great! then I can borrow it! :laughing:

I like the idea of adjusting the top link way out to get the front blade off the ground and use the rear blade to level with. I'll give that a try and see what happens. I think that is actually a big part of the problem because without adjusting the top link way out, you cannot put the 3 point into float without just removing every bit of gravel which is down and loading up the BB. Therefore I was forced to drop it to the ground and raise it up maybe an inch which caused it to be rigid with the tractor and move with the tractor as opposed to the ground.

Do you have a loader on your tractor? If so, this may help. Start with your tractor at one end of the drive pointed toward the far end with the tractor on a flat surface. Place your bucket on the far side of the first whoop-de-do and drop your bucket flat just above the dip in the gravel. Curl the bucket VERY slightly and use the back of the bucket to backdrag the first hump out. Don't use float. Using this method you can see exactly how much material you're moving so you don't dig a hole. If you see it's pulling too much material, stop and uncurl the bucket just a bit. We're talking 1/8-1/4" adjustments here. as the material behind the bucket begins to lessen, uncurl the bucket to flat. Now that you have a longer flat surface, pull forward again to where you started and lay the bucket flat and backdrag again using float. This should get the first hump out and the surface fairly flat . Now repeat for the rest of the driveway. When it looks pretty good, start at one end and use the bucket flat with float and backdrag the entire driveway.

 

[s219]

My answer was based on my experience with a quarter inching valve tractor which you can't put in float, to get it to float you must hold the lever down or use a strap or bungee etc., the tractor in the OP's profile is shown as a B2620, the Kubota website describes the B2620 as having a quarter inching valve.

I had a B2920 (same as a B2620 with 3 extra HP) that had the quarter-inching system. The lever on those tractors has a detent at the bottom of the stroke, so you can easily put implements into float just by pushing the lever all the way down. It will stay put there until you pull it back up out of detent. As far as I know, all B-series Kubotas with the quarter-incher have a float detent position. They also have a detent at the upper end of the lever, so you can pull the lever all the way up to raise an implement without holding your hand there. When the 3-pt hits the upper limit of travel, a rod pops the lever out of detent and back to neutral.

I have heard a lot of complaints about the quarter-incher on the B-series in the past, how it was not as good as position control for lots of things, but for grading work with a implement that is usually either floating or raised up, the behavior is no different than position control on the other Kubotas (like my current L). The detent positions on the lever make it very usable.