2022 Outlander Max 6x6

[airbiscuit]

ArlyA thinks towing an implement is harder on an ATV than plowing. Perhaps. However he still hasn't explained how plowing is actually untaxing to the engine.

 

[jjeff]

I think a shaft with u-joints on each end would have been sturdier than the small spline set-up.

I'm not an expert but instead of u-joints is can am using self centering involute splines to be able to compensate and maintain a mating surface for the articulation of the front axle?

 

[ArlyA]

I'm not an expert but instead of u-joints is can am using self centering involute splines to be able to compensate and maintain a mating surface for the articulation of the front axle?

This machine has independent suspension so the front differential's gearbox is bolted into the frame like most atv's are* so I'd have to guess these shafts and couplers are to allow very slight movements of the frame when being cycled through stress.

* Most atv people would know this.

 

[jjeff]

This machine has independent suspension so the front differential's gearbox is bolted into the frame like most atv's are* so I'd have to guess these shafts and couplers are to allow very slight movements of the frame when being cycled through stress.

* Most atv people would know this.

Lol you are correct, probably why they don't feel the need or even need to use u joints. Question, cause I'm curious on this failure and I don't have the actual parts in front of me. We're any of those ground down splines missing or where they all just ground down to a point they couldn't interlock with the coupler? I also assume the boot in picture ripped once the shaft kept spinning and the yoke was not? Apologies for lack of proper terminology lol.

 

[LittleBittyBigJohn]

Arley, I wouldn't stress too much about it. Just a bit of casual parts browsing online showed that this is a common-ish part to break. I also see that there are upgraded shafts available. A couple places listed this as a "sacrificial" part designed to give way before more expensive driveline components fail. I would take that with a grain of salt but not totally discount it.

In my experience with my larger than life mudding 4 wheeler years ago, most of the time you tend to find the parts that need to be upgraded rather quickly. Mine was a Polaris 850XP, a 71 HP unit, with very large tires and slightly lifted. I had to upgrade the front axle shafts due to frequent breakage. The upgraded components never broke, nor did any other driveline component fail because of the upgraded axles. That's not to say it's the same issue, just trying to be supportive. Shock loads, high traction reversing, or extreme angles were typically the culprits for mine. Not the same part though so you shouldn't have to worry about the extreme angles. But still, reversing under load with the wheels (tracks) turned to lock could still cause a potential for binding, adding increased strain to the front drive components.

I bet you have more traction on the front than the typical user because of the tracks. Me personally, I would be mindful of that fact when you get the warranty replacement back, then if it happens again install the upgraded shaft.

You have a serious unit there. I like it.

 

[ArlyA]

Arley, I wouldn't stress too much about it. Just a bit of casual parts browsing online showed that this is a common-ish part to break. I also see that there are upgraded shafts available. A couple places listed this as a "sacrificial" part designed to give way before more expensive driveline components fail. I would take that with a grain of salt but not totally discount it.

In my experience with my larger than life mudding 4 wheeler years ago, most of the time you tend to find the parts that need to be upgraded rather quickly. Mine was a Polaris 850XP, a 71 HP unit, with very large tires and slightly lifted. I had to upgrade the front axle shafts due to frequent breakage. The upgraded components never broke, nor did any other driveline component fail because of the upgraded axles. That's not to say it's the same issue, just trying to be supportive. Shock loads, high traction reversing, or extreme angles were typically the culprits for mine. Not the same part though so you shouldn't have to worry about the extreme angles. But still, reversing under load with the wheels (tracks) turned to lock could still cause a potential for binding, adding increased strain to the front drive components.

I bet you have more traction on the front than the typical user because of the tracks. Me personally, I would be mindful of that fact when you get the warranty replacement back, then if it happens again install the upgraded shaft.

You have a serious unit there. I like it.

The machine is already back out in the field and yes, these couplers are known to fail with people who groom trails and equipped with pods. BRP does know of these failures. Some claim these spines were not heat treated properly.

 

[Snobdds]

The machine is already back out in the field and yes, these couplers are known to fail with people who groom trails and equipped with pods. BRP does know of these failures. Some claim these spines were not heat treated properly.

Are some claiming these were heat treated properly?

 

[jjeff]

The machine is already back out in the field and yes, these couplers are known to fail with people who groom trails and equipped with pods. BRP does know of these failures. Some claim these spines were not heat treated properly.

You should be able to eliminate possible causes if you examined or had old parts in front of you. Were they all just ground down or was there evidence of a few splines broken off causing it to not mate properly and grind down , any torsional strain, twisting on shaft itself? Discoloration in any components? Enquiring minds want to know lol.

 

[ning]

You can’t just judge machine stress on throttle input

My 557 cubic inch ford makes max torque at like 1400rpm
(and that has broken 3 transmissions and 2 rearends)
An electric motor makes 100% at zero rpm

Does it make max torque at partial throttle?
Arly stated that he's plowing at partial throttle; he didn't state what rpm.
I think his statement that he's plowing at partial throttle indicates that the machine isn't near max output, where it would be taxed (under heavy load) - not that it's not doing any work at all (obviously).

 

[Hay Dude]

Is the replacement shaft improved in any way over the failed shaft?

 

[plastikosmd]

“Does it make max torque at partial throttle?”

Of course, as is typical for torque.
For my truck max torque at
1400 rpm is a bit less than 1/4 throttle for that truck, 6k redline.

It breaks all kinds of things at low rpm.

He is probably right in the middle of his torque curve.

“There is a relationship between torque and horsepower: HP = Torque X RPM. If you make a more analytical observation of car torque vs HP specs, you will see that an engine has a maximum torque spec and a maximum HP spec. Both these specifications are relative to engine speed or RPM. An engine will reach its maximum horsepower at a certain RPM and maximum torque at a different RPM.

If you want to get somewhere in the shortest time, you want to drive as fast as possible. You want to do the most work in the shortest time. When speed is the objective, horsepower is important, as this is the rate (or speed) at which the work is done.

If you want to move more weight and are not too concerned how fast this is achieved, higher torque is advantageous.”

Throttle position is an extraordinarily poor way to judge the work the components are doing when plowing vs towing.

Anyway, will leave it here. GL with the machine and redesign

 

[ning]

“Does it make max torque at partial throttle?”

Of course, as is typical for torque.
For my truck max torque at
1400 rpm is a bit less than 1/4 throttle for that truck, 6k redline.

It breaks all kinds of things at low rpm.

He is probably right in the middle of his torque curve.

“There is a relationship between torque and horsepower: HP = Torque X RPM. If you make a more analytical observation of car torque vs HP specs, you will see that an engine has a maximum torque spec and a maximum HP spec. Both these specifications are relative to engine speed or RPM. An engine will reach its maximum horsepower at a certain RPM and maximum torque at a different RPM.

If you want to get somewhere in the shortest time, you want to drive as fast as possible. You want to do the most work in the shortest time. When speed is the objective, horsepower is important, as this is the rate (or speed) at which the work is done.

If you want to move more weight and are not too concerned how fast this is achieved, higher torque is advantageous.”

Throttle position is an extraordinarily poor way to judge the work the components are doing when plowing vs towing.

Anyway, will leave it here. GL with the machine and redesign

Ok we have a failure to understand "throttle" (how far are you pressing on the accelerator pedal) vs RPM (speed of the engine).

The two are only somewhat related; at maximum load you can be at max torque rpm with full throttle - you're unlikely to develop max torque without max throttle, even at that rpm.

With a lower load and not needing as much acceleration, at the same rpm that your engine *can* develop max torque, you may have the throttle set more lightly, and the engine will not be working as hard (ie it will not be taxed as heavily).

 

[ArlyA]

Ok we have a failure to understand "throttle" (how far are you pressing on the accelerator pedal) vs RPM (speed of the engine).

The two are only somewhat related; at maximum load you can be at max torque rpm with full throttle - you're unlikely to develop max torque without max throttle, even at that rpm.

With a lower load and not needing as much acceleration, at the same rpm that your engine *can* develop max torque, you may have the throttle set more lightly, and the engine will not be working as hard (ie it will not be taxed as heavily).

While doing the two jobs this machines does, that is, pushing snow with the blade or towing some implement*. Its not hard to listen to the engine and gauge the work its doing. This is what most people can do while operating there truck, compact tractor or lawn mower. Isn't this what most people do? Whatever the case, while just pushing snow this machine is hardly working at all and I'm operating in the 1st 1/4 or 1/3 of its total throttle. While towing snow implements its in the 1/2 to 100% output range. This is not rocket science, it takes significantly more HP to tow some implement in snow. Now the rants may continue.

*I commonly do both at once.

 

[Hay Dude]

I would think the amount of HP required to push snow would depend on snow depth, snow wetness, and what type of surface the snow is being pushed across. Also how aggressively the blade is engaged to the snow. That could make for vast differences in power required and therefore strain on the drivetrain.
We push snow with trucks and tractors and I can tell you that 4” of wet snow is harder on the drivetrain than 10“ of fluffy dry snow.
Probably the same could be said about pulling a groomer across snow, too.

 

[jjeff]

Getting back to causes of failure imo evidence of chipped or broken off splines would indicate a sudden impact while plowing which could eventually cause those splines to look ground down, I believe the op loaded up the springs on the plow for the tripping mechanism. I have in the past also. Welding a pipe to cutting edge really helped me anyway for significantly minimizing sudden hard impacts.

 

[plastikosmd]

“Ok we have a failure to understand "throttle" (how far are you pressing on the accelerator pedal) vs RPM (speed of the engine).”

No failure to understand, dyno numbers tell me where my power is made under load (rpm and tps)


As far as pushing snow, as I said, it will find your weak link. Light and fluffy vs wet and heavy means little when you push into a bank or hit that rock

 

[Hay Dude]

Yeah but “light and fluffy vs wet and heavy” does mean something-even if you don’t hit a bank or rock.
I have personally rebuilt failed mechanical and driveline parts from plowing very heavy wet snow. Have never repaired driveline or plow parts pushing light fluffy snow.

 

[jjeff]

I can imagine the amount of heat produced by pushing heavy wet snow is significant especially on a belt driven cvt drivetrain requiring additional friction on the belt and clutch sheaves to push.

 

[Snobdds]

It not the pushing, or even the throttle pressure...it's the sudden stops that is hard on equipment. This is true for both the engine and drivetrain. Pushing snow and then suddenly stopping does not prevent the physics of momentum from proceeding to the weak link.

Every ATV, UTV based machine encounters sudden stops in pushing snow. They don't have the weight to push through.

 

[ning]

“Ok we have a failure to understand "throttle" (how far are you pressing on the accelerator pedal) vs RPM (speed of the engine).”

No failure to understand, dyno numbers tell me where my power is made under load (rpm and tps)


As far as pushing snow, as I said, it will find your weak link. Light and fluffy vs wet and heavy means little when you push into a bank or hit that rock

Is your dyno run at partial throttle?
Or full throttle?

Pretty lil engine. I'm certain you know what the throttle does, so I'm completely perplexed that there's any question about the difference of engine output at a given RPM being dependent on how open the throttle is.