15% ethanol!?!?

[radman1]

Could the problem be from using ethanol based gasoline in engines/tanks that have never seen ethanol? It maybe the ethanol is cleaning the tanks better and resulting in more debris and junk getting in the carbs, fuel lines ect. It may be much more noticeable in motors than don't get used a low and have conventional gas sitting in the tanks and carbs longer. Ethanol has been around for 10-15+ years and the manufactures have adapted. Many of the carb cleaners and injector cleaners have some component of alcohol in them.

 

[Diamondpilot]

You are right about the ethanol cleaning out tanks. My uncle owns a Shell Gas Station. He changed his filters once ever 3-4 months. When he switched over to 10% he had to change the filters a few times the first day, once the second day, then 3-4 days later then once a week and the once a month. Now that he has ran tons of fuel though it, about 25,000 gallons per day, he is back to the normal schedule. Anyway, he said the first few days they were changing the filters on the pump right and left.

Chris

 

[FlaDon]

Ethanol has been around for a long time. Why would the mechanic just now see "this type of increase of the gell around the pickups in the last 8 months and he sees no end in sight"?

There is a lot of misinformation about ethanol floating around and some of it is 20 years old. I think mechanics are the majority of the culprits.

You can believe what you want but facts prove you wrong. One thing that has shown up is that when gas tanks have been tested when the hoses failed, they were in the 12% range or greater for ethanol. Now how do you find that out? Really simple. B&S ( and others ) sell test kits. How does it get that high? When a truck leaves a filling facility, it might have all the alcohol mix in one tank while another tank may have straight gas. Get to the station and dump the mix in first. Then fill with the non-mixed. Can't take all the non-mixed? Then the alcohol level can be greater than the 10%. Why not mix it all at the port? So that the truck can be used for non-contaminated fuel also. Same applies to different types of Diesel fuels. Alcohol was only phased in for year round use in 2005 when the Feds passed the 2005 Federal Energy Policy Act. Many people had major problems at that point when the crud gas cleaned all sorts of materials out of fuel tanks. And we had a customer in this week with a completely clogged fuel line. The gasoline had cause the fuel line to swell shut.

 

[Marveltone]

In Minnesota, most of the "road gas" is labeled "E10" (10% ethanol), or "oxygenated" gas. The "non-oxygenated " is just good old fashioned gas without the ethanol.

 

[brokenot]

Fact (from Briggs & Stratton):
B&S allows the use of oxygenate blended gasoline where the oxygenate content is up to 10% ethanol (gasohol) or up to 15% MTBE (Methyl tertiary butyl ether) by volume. However, ethanol blended gasoline can attract moisture which leads to separation and formation of acids during storage. Acidic gasoline can damage the fuel system of an engine while in storage. B&S strongly recommends removing ethanol-blended fuels from engine during storage.
Use of gasoline containing higher than the EPA approved limits, for volume percentage of ethanol more than 10%, or MTBE more than 15%, may cause engine damage and will void engine warranty.

Ethanol certainly doesn't help matters any, but the vast majority of small engine shops would have little or nothing to do IF the end-user took the precautions spelled out clearly in the manuals their equipment came with when it comes to storage prep. Additionally, in order to meet more stringent regs, small engine manufacturers are running things leaner than ever. Poor practices by the end-users are then compounded. Five or ten years ago, a main jet could be one-third clogged with goo and the engine would still start/run/perform. That's no longer the case. Jets are sized to be just big enough to flow the amount of fuel required for the engine to run properly. And that's when everything is brand new and clean.

Long story short, lazy end-users used to be able to get by longer when they made the choice to not read or ignore what the manufacturer spelled out for them. If their practices haven't changed, their laziness will make matters worse.

There's a lot of exaggeration going on. This is one example:

when small engine repair shops start reporting that they are seeing problems at a rate about 8x of what they had seen in the past in the last year it's not hard to point to the problem.

Are they seeing fueling problems? Perhaps....but not at 8X of what they saw previously. And if they're blaming all of what they're seeing on the newest gasoline formulations....it's time for them to start looking for a new line of work.

 

[DEWFPO]

I've run lawn mowers, gas tractors, chain saws, trimmers, chippers, and everything else on 15% ethanol gasoline since about 1985 and have not had a single problem with any of them.

DEWFPO

 

[Marveltone]

I've run lawn mowers, gas tractors, chain saws, trimmers, chippers, and everything else on 15% ethanol gasoline since about 1985 and have not had a single problem with any of them.

DEWFPO

I have a 1982 Honda CB900C motorcycle that I had to take to the shop a few years ago. It was hard to start, ran rough, and had no power. The mechanic took the carbs apart and found they were black inside! What had happened was the ethanol that I had been using had disintegrated the rubber fuel components, and they had coated the carburetors with rubber.

Apparently, the older rubber components don't like the ethanol, while the newer engines use neoprene instead... much more tolerant. Ethanol cost me over $300!

I now stick with non-oxy.

 

[David_Kb7uns]

Well with having the 15% ethanol here in Oregon for over a year and a half, we are now coming into many of the small engines having a full season of use, storage and attemped use again.

It is not a good thing and the damage done and loss of fuel economy has brought such a backlash that the gas stations that have 3 tanks and do not blend the fuel to get mid grade, are now carrying clear premium fuel. Last winter the cardlock that the loggers use started carrying the clear but there was no way for normal users to get it. Boat owners were going to the local airport to get the clear fuel if they were not close to the marine fuel docks at the coast. The moisture that we have here and other conditions contribute to major problems. You go to local saw shops and the number of engines disabled by the fuel melting fuel lines, diaphrams and plugging carbs is large and repair time are extended for several weeks. If you do get your engines to run on it many carbs are not able to richen the mixture enough to compensate for the loss of BTUs in the fuel and the motors do not power up or idle very good. The costs to users of the E15 blend is enormous and a lot of down time and money to fix.

Our county has also seen over 10% decrease in fleet fuel mileage with no savings with the ethanol but an increase in fuel prices. It has some county commissioners looking to have the laws repealed on the ethanol content.

I did have some foresight into this before the E15 hit and got a diesel lawn mower and retired the gasoline one.


David Kb7uns

 

[clemsonfor]

As to the OP the EPA is testing to see if 15% ethanol will burn OK in engines. The results are due maybe by the end of the month. From what I remember they said it looks good, a hint that the gov may push it from 10% to 15% soon.

There was a place that sold the good old MTBE gas but about a week or so ago they said they couldn't get it any more. I suspect that non ethanol gas will get hard to find soon. I have yet to see a car that doesn't loose 10% fuel economy burning 10%. I don't understand how anyone in their right mind could honestly say burning the same amount of gas and burning 10% ethanol for no reason is better than the ground contamination MTBE causes. Once you figure in all the fuel used by the farmers, the fuel used in the fertilizer, the water needed to make ethanol, etc is just doesn't make sense.

I can understand a flex fuel car that can burn up to 85% ethanol but I have yet to see one pump in this state that has it, hardly worth buying a car that forces you to drive to the next state to take advantage of the "flex".

As far as small engines go I think this is a government trick to force you into replacing those old engines. The newer ones have catalytic converters in them.

My work truck is flex fuel will burn e85. I fill it up (not my $$) with ethonol when i can, 2 full fill ups and one half. The last time i filled it (4x4 dodge dakota quad cab) i got around 10 mpg or 44% less mpg. I paid $1.39 at that time for the e85. The crazy thing is i drove past several stations with e10 gas for the same price just to get the e85 to test. If it was my money i would not buy the stuff when fuel is higher its only like 25% cheaper anyway. Luckily i can still buy real 93 octane around here at certain stations, its only .20/gallon more than the e10 85 octane.

 

[clemsonfor]

Ethanol has been around for a long time. Why would the mechanic just now see "this type of increase of the gell around the pickups in the last 8 months and he sees no end in sight"?

There is a lot of misinformation about ethanol floating around and some of it is 20 years old. I think mechanics are the majority of the culprits.

Mechanics dont work on my stuff, esp small engines. In my area ethonal has only really been used at most stations in 87 for 3-5 years just enough time to eat on some stuff. Sure at the discount stations it has prolly been in there for 10-12 years but not the 95% that it is at now.

 

[clemsonfor]

I've run lawn mowers, gas tractors, chain saws, trimmers, chippers, and everything else on 15% ethanol gasoline since about 1985 and have not had a single problem with any of them.

DEWFPO

I hope not new cause you voided your warrenty the second you put that in them, most cars even from a few years ago cant run on anything greater than e10 without voiding warrenty.

 

[kenmac]

around here all you can get says contains up to 10% ethanol. I own trimmers, blowers, chainsaws, & mowers and have never had a single issue using gas with ethanol. Maybe it's the 2 cycle oil that some are using that doesn't mix well with ethanol that's causing the issues

 

[crazyal]

Around here ethanol was used only in the winder because of the cold weather. During the summer months when most small engines are used they never saw ethanol. Two years ago that changed and the repair shops were flooded with engines needing carb work. Just last week a local paper went to a large repaid shop, the guy said 80% of the engines in his shop for fuel problems was from Ethanol. Of course that's only at 10% and who knows the number of equipment replaced because of ethanol.

 

[Iowachild]

I hope not new cause you voided your warrenty the second you put that in them, most cars even from a few years ago cant run on anything greater than e10 without voiding warrenty.

My 2008 Mercury Sable has a very plain E85 with the red circle and sash right on the fuel tank cap. If we talked the truth about the ethanol mandates, this would be a political thread!:mur:

 

[Wacky]

I wonder, if even possible, if anyone is going to make a "ethanol filter" to remove stuff from the fuel?

 

[SeymourBota]

I wonder, if even possible, if anyone is going to make a "ethanol filter" to remove stuff from the fuel?

Sounds like a challenge for 'Mr. Funnel' - get rid of water and ethanol!!

Problem is, since it is likely 10% of what is in your tank, what do you do with it if you can separate it out??

I'm buying Sea Foam in the gallon containers now!!

 

[clemsonfor]

My 2008 Mercury Sable has a very plain E85 with the red circle and sash right on the fuel tank cap. If we talked the truth about the ethanol mandates, this would be a political thread!:mur:

Yea im not talking about the flex fuel vehicles, that is an option. In say 2006 you could buy an e85 flexfuel chevy truck and one that could only run on E10. I have never bought a new vehicle so i dont know about now. I do run new ones at work though.

 

[clemsonfor]

Sounds like a challenge for 'Mr. Funnel' - get rid of water and ethanol!!

Problem is, since it is likely 10% of what is in your tank, what do you do with it if you can separate it out??

I'm buying Sea Foam in the gallon containers now!!

The problem is that water bonds with ethonol. Alcohol, which is what ethonol is is what is in water removal products like dri-gas and others. Alchohol will bond with moisture and allow it to be burned in a engine, where as water will not if the pump sucked pure water up and injected it or ran it through the carb, it just wont run well on the mix. The problem is that because of this trait the ethonol attracts water, what does a half full tank do, gets cool at night and then condenses in the hot day water is absorbed by ethonol and cause of the heavy water weight sinks to the bottom of the tank where it waits to be burned at a lower octane than the 87 or 93 or whatever you put in the tank to begin with. Water has 0 octane of couse which is why it is lowered and of couse new fuel is not the same quality as 20 years ago. Long story short this is terrible for 2 strokes and boat moters esp since they sit for weeks months sometimes between uses. Any way the 2 strokes can detinate early because of a lowered octane rating (which is the resistance to knock) which increases cylinder temps and can melp pistons or blow holes in them, basically catastrophic failure of the engine, so you want to run the marine/ethonal stabil in all your lesser used items and or seafoam.

-Nate