Natural gas?

/ Natural gas? #141  
Once you get over 90%, you produce condensate, and this is same reason why you won't find any high efficiency gas package units.

When we move in a couple of months, the last system I'm replacing at the end of this month is a dual fuel heat pump with an 80% gas furnace, as there is a 80% gas furnace in the attic already, and I'm fine with it being I use the heat pump for heating down to about 30F outside air temp. That said, the one system in the basement is a dual fuel system using a 92% gas furnace.

Any HVAC system will produce water, the question becomes where (indoor / outdoor) and when (summer / winter).

Generally most guys in NC when dealing with an attic installation prefer to reduce the amount of potential water being produced and go with a non condensing gas gas furnace (80%).

Heating and air conditioning can be very regional on what type of HVAC systems are used given the weather and how the homes are built (I promise you that you'll find more swamp coolers in NM vs NC ;)).

Then you also have cost of equipment and cost of installation along with how you're going to vent the equipment given the current layout (to help reduce costs). For this reason, although the majority of gas furnaces being sold are 90% or higher, you'll find that most oil furnaces along with boilers being sold and installed are in the 80% range and not 90% or higher.

The bigger issue in HVAC is that California is the largest market for HVAC manufacturers, and when California passes a law dictating what kind of equipment can and can't be used, HVAC manufacturers have to comply if they want that market share, and for better or worse, they do.

This is exactly why manufacturers produce and sell low NOx gas furnaces.
Mine is an attic installation and the condensate line is tied into the toilet vent pipe. Water goes into the drain.
 
/ Natural gas? #142  
In NC (and your region may be different) when a gas furnace is going into an unconditioned attic, guys prefer to not have to deal with the water a gas furnace will produce in case of freezing temps.

I'm not arguing with you, just the way things are done in my area.

However, again, when dealing with a gas package unit, why you don't see 90+ efficient package units, due to freezing outside.

Generally speaking when I worked up north, for new construction homes, did boiler (80%) for heat and high velocity systems for AC. That may have changed in that area as well as that was over 2 decades ago.

When dealing with boilers, there is something to be said for cast iron LOL. Remember when the high efficient (90%+) Munchkin boiler was picking up up north back then. Try and buy a Minchkin boiler now.
The condensate was originally vented to the roof and it did create problems in freezing weather. I had it re-plumbed to tie into a drain vent pipe inside the attic and no more freezing problems.
 
/ Natural gas? #143  
All this talk of gas, not for me. My state has a horrible track record of gas explosions in residents and businesses. Matter of fact, a house went boom day before yesterday. They were still trying to find the leak, yesterday. Three lines in the area.

No thanks.
 
/ Natural gas? #144  
The condensate was originally vented to the roof and it did create problems in freezing weather. I had it re-plumbed to tie into a drain vent pipe inside the attic and no more freezing problems.
This is why there is no "right" answer. NM is quite different from VT, so what works best for you may not work best for me. Even dumping into a "semi-warm" vent pipe, when it's -20 to -30°F you are bound to have problems. In fact a friend of mine in NH did just a month or so ago...
 
/ Natural gas? #145  
The work isn’t the problem… it’s the host of regulatory burdens imposed…

I have model tenants that have not had a rent increase in years… some pushing 10 years.

Natural Gas was the darling of the green movement with bounties paid to replace solid fuel with natural gas.

Now it’s Natural Gas under fire with the push to all electric.

Even during the massive 1989 Loma Prieta Quake natural gas never missed a beat in my locations… whereas electricity out for nearly a week…

The troubling aspect is these mandates just happen and owners left to deal with the fallout.

My experience with heat pumps has been dismal in Washington State… in 20 years I am now on my third one.

The first was new just prior to purchase and the last 2 set me back 12k and 13.5k respectively…

Contrast this to 100 year old gas floor furnaces that just work…


I have the same 23 year old geothermal 2-stage unit running fine so far.

Compressor capacitors were replaced two years ago because they had swollen some and the variable speed fan motor was replaced few years ago, but that's all so far (the fan runs 24/7 always, low speed when no heat or cooling needed).

Yes I know the day is coming...
 
/ Natural gas? #146  
This is my friends home and place of business…

 
/ Natural gas? #147  
Wow

Each of my three previous houses had natural gas heating and I don't miss it at all.
Our PUD has 50 MW natural gas turbine powered generating plant and I am fine with that since it's about 15 miles away!
 
/ Natural gas? #148  
Kind of like taking out traffic lanes to make bike lanes…

Not once have I ever seen a bike traveling an East Oakland bike lane…

Planner said something like build it and they will come…
I am a bike rider and used to ride in downtown areas a lot. I never needed, wanted or specifically used bike lanes. Often these are where much of the road debris collects, making them unfit to ride in.
I think these bike lanes carved out of main roads are typical clueless bureaucratic thinking and virtue signaling.
If they are really serious about us swapping cars for bikes, make bike-ways that are separate from the car/truck roads, either with a concrete barrier or a separate road. I understand the cost-benefit argument, and am not expecting this to happen.
 
/ Natural gas? #149  
East Oakland is not typically where I see pedestrians or cyclists…

It’s really impacted commute traffic going from 2 lanes each direction to one lane each direction.

I can’t recall ever seeing the bike lanes used for bikes… you are right about trash and debris accumulating.
 
/ Natural gas? #150  
Wow

Each of my three previous houses had natural gas heating and I don't miss it at all.
Our PUD has 50 MW natural gas turbine powered generating plant and I am fine with that since it's about 15 miles away!
What didn't you like about natural gas in your homes?
 
/ Natural gas? #151  
/ Natural gas?
  • Thread Starter
#152  
The price per therm is up a lot…
Try paying $3.80 a gallon for LP in rural NC for heat. You will go to a heat pump pretty quick if you're gas / AC.

At the end of the day, unless you're burning wood off your own land for heat, sooner or later, ANY fuel source can screw you over for heat.
 
/ Natural gas? #153  
So the dumb question is there any reason why not to use natural gas if it's available?

Since you are doing a new kitchen, make sure the range hood is vented outdoors. There is some recent press about combustion products from gas being unhealthy, but with outdoor venting that goes away. Other than that, two utility sources are a great idea. If you ever install a generator, running it off of NG is a great idea.
 
/ Natural gas?
  • Thread Starter
#154  
Since you are doing a new kitchen, make sure the range hood is vented outdoors. There is some recent press about combustion products from gas being unhealthy, but with outdoor venting that goes away. Other than that, two utility sources are a great idea. If you ever install a generator, running it off of NG is a great idea.
Range hood along with dryer, fart fans and anything else will be vented outdoor.

The only reason why I've stayed away from a generator at first is due to the fuel consumption being on LP.

Honestly, if we were using the same co op for electric at our new place, I wouldn't consider a generator as over the 20 years, they've been very good. Thing is, even though we're outside of town limits at the new place, we're being serviced by a big conglomerate energy company, and that scares me a little bit with some of the outages they've had in the past.
 
/ Natural gas? #155  
The only reason why I've stayed away from a generator at first is due to the fuel consumption being on LP.
You mean because it burns LP, or because of the fuel consumption rate while burning LP?

The typical LP-burning generator can be bought as a NG burner, or switched, pretty easily; having an NG source is pretty ideal for a backup generator.
 
/ Natural gas? #156  
Try paying $3.80 a gallon for LP in rural NC for heat. You will go to a heat pump pretty quick if you're gas / AC.

At the end of the day, unless you're burning wood off your own land for heat, sooner or later, ANY fuel source can screw you over for heat.
Not any fuel source: my level payment natural gas bill is $45/ month. Nothing is cheaper.
 
/ Natural gas? #157  
Not any fuel source: my level payment natural gas bill is $45/ month. Nothing is cheaper.
I loved the price of gas in Farmington New Mexico when I lived there ~20 years ago. It was basically free. No natural gas infrastructure in these parts... Like neighbor sigarms said, gotta buy propane if you want gas. I'll burn wood instead. We even have a wood cook stove in the kitchen of the old farmhouse. Makes a nice flat top skillet.
 
/ Natural gas? #160  
What didn't you like about natural gas in your homes?



Those three of my early houses had been built in the mid 70's and early 80's so the natural gas heaters in them were of the low cost & old school design.

IE.
Pilot flame type and when heating they were blasting very hot air into the living space, which is not ideal in my opinion.

None had AC because that would have been additional equipment.
Some times slight smell of gas near the heater when the big flame lit up.

I realize the new modern units are of high efficiency NG units and run clean, but I prefer not to have NG appliances inside my house ever again.

I know we all have opinions and that's mine!
 

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