Will UAW Strike?

[5030]

Something that the offshore but building onshore auto makers don't have that the not so big 3 are weighted down with. I see Fain is rumbling about attempting to unionize them once again. That went down in flames the first time around but now the union autoworkers will be earning substantially more per hour and will have better benefits than their non union counterparts so we will see how that plays out. Just because they are located in RTW states don't mean they cannot unionize. They can easily. The only difference between a RTW state and a mandatory state is the rank and file don't have to join the union to work there.

Far as I'm concerned, union representation should always be a personal choice and not be required to work in ANY plant, automotive or not.

 

[ruffdog]

What are the legacy costs with retirements, pensions and healthcare? It’s not the hourly rates alone, it’s the fact you are paying for three employees while only one produces.

As far as healthcare for retirees, it transferred to the UAW in 2007.

"The Trust was established as a result of the 2007 collective bargaining agreements between the UAW and the three auto companies. Under the agreements, retiree health care liabilities were transferred to a new independent Voluntary Employee Beneficiary Association (VEBA), which is composed of three separate Plans (GM, Ford and Chrysler)."

 

[Snobdds]

Think of it this way...

You get hired into a company making widgets. After about 2 years, you're making widgets just as good as everyone else, no matter how long they've been there. Why should they be making double your pay for the same exact output? Just because they've been there longer? They aren't any more valuable to the company than you are if all they do is make widgets just like everyone else. That foments bad attitudes in the lower time workers.

At my last job, the first thing they told me was that they wanted to get me up to journeyman wages within 2 years. Everyone with the same job description got paid the same amount, no matter how long they've been there. You're all doing the same job. You all get the same raises every year based on department goals and cost of living increases. It was about as fair as could be. About the only perk you'd get for longevity was increased vacation time. And even that can foment resentment.

Now fast forward 30 years. My job got outsourced, the entire production department got let go, and a bunch of 55 year old men were looking for employment. Jobs are easy to find. However, a lot of places will hire you in at starting wages, not based on your age, but at the age of a new employee. Therefore, as my father would say, "You have to go back to kid wages." So at age 55, you're making $15K less than people that are younger than you, and they get 3 more weeks of vacation than you. You'll never get up to 4 weeks of vacation again before you turn 65, let alone 5 weeks.

It doesn't bother me because I know I could quit tomorrow and be fine. But it grates on other guys that work harder than the long-term guys, yet get less compensation, only because of time, not ability or value.

That's how it's a good thing.

In the white collar world, that is weird.

In that world, it takes years to understand systems and how problems interact with those systems to be solvable. Otherwise known as...institutional knowledge. Not everyone can learn, retain, and apply institutional knowledge. It always amazes me to see some people be totally experts in their role, but can't understand their place in the larger picture. They top out early, regardless of longevity and rightfully so. Pay is based upon your ability to put out fires.

It's a known thing that longevity does not equal pay in that world. Performance equals pay.

That incentive relationship is always going to produce the best and most cost efficient product.

 

[2manyrocks]

A lot depends on how employees feel about how they've been treated by their employers. One of the fastest ways to get a union is when the employees feel like the employer isn't treating them fairly or disrespects them. One employer I knew used to do some things for the employees specifically intended to make them feel appreciated so they wouldn't vote to unionize.

 

[shooterdon]

Think of it this way...

You get hired into a company making widgets. After about 2 years, you're making widgets just as good as everyone else, no matter how long they've been there. Why should they be making double your pay for the same exact output? Just because they've been there longer? They aren't any more valuable to the company than you are if all they do is make widgets just like everyone else. That foments bad attitudes in the lower time workers.

At my last job, the first thing they told me was that they wanted to get me up to journeyman wages within 2 years. Everyone with the same job description got paid the same amount, no matter how long they've been there. You're all doing the same job. You all get the same raises every year based on department goals and cost of living increases. It was about as fair as could be. About the only perk you'd get for longevity was increased vacation time. And even that can foment resentment.

Now fast forward 30 years. My job got outsourced, the entire production department got let go, and a bunch of 55 year old men were looking for employment. Jobs are easy to find. However, a lot of places will hire you in at starting wages, not based on your age, but at the age of a new employee. Therefore, as my father would say, "You have to go back to kid wages." So at age 55, you're making $15K less than people that are younger than you, and they get 3 more weeks of vacation than you. You'll never get up to 4 weeks of vacation again before you turn 65, let alone 5 weeks.

It doesn't bother me because I know I could quit tomorrow and be fine. But it grates on other guys that work harder than the long-term guys, yet get less compensation, only because of time, not ability or value.

That's how it's a good thing.

If you have a job that almost anyone can do with 2 years of experience, maybe the guys making $15k per year more are overpaid.

Low skill highly paid jobs will not last in a world economy. Makes more sense to take those jobs to Mexico or off-shore and not deal with benefits, OSHA, EPA, Workmans Comp, etc etc.

 

[ruffdog]

If you have a job that almost anyone can do with 2 years of experience, maybe the guys making $15k per year more are overpaid.

Low skill highly paid jobs will not last in a world economy. Makes more sense to take those jobs to Mexico or off-shore and not deal with benefits, OSHA, EPA, Workmans Comp, etc etc.

They pay good so the people show up everyday. They need everyone in the system so the line can start, parts get installed, trucks and rail bring parts, and a product goes out the door. How many people would work 10 hours a day on an assembly line that never stops for $15/hr and no benefits? Remember, some of these factories don't have windows or fresh air and the door is a tenth of a mile away. Then, the worker gets to go home to rest and a common nightmare for them is being back at work, struggling to keep up with the line. After you get use to your job, you get moved and have to learn another one....and guess what, the line speed just got increased. Sure, there are easy jobs on the line. There are also some pretty tough ones too.

 

[shooterdon]

They pay good so the people show up everyday. They need everyone in the system so the line can start, parts get installed, trucks and rail bring parts, and a product goes out the door. How many people would work 10 hours a day on an assembly line that never stops for $15/hr and no benefits? Remember, some of these factories don't have windows or fresh air and the door is a tenth of a mile away. Then, the worker gets to go home to rest and a common nightmare for them is being back at work, struggling to keep up with the line. After you get use to your job, you get moved and have to learn another one....and guess what, the line speed just got increased. Sure, there are easy jobs on the line. There are also some pretty tough ones too.

You missed the point.

Those jobs are being eliminated. Either through automation or taken off-shore where $40k a year jobs are highly desired.

Add in government regulations, employee "issues", and union "crap" and $65k+ assembly line jobs are, or soon will be, the exception.

I worked decades ago to do just that. One machine that cost 300k eliminated two union jobs. We had five work stations and 4 shifts. Cost us $2 million (added a spare machine and spare parts) and eliminated 40 production personnel. Added 2 maintenance people.

 

[5030]

Back when I drove big trucks, our yard was just north of the Jeep plant on Stickney Avenue and at noon, you didn't want to be driving down Stickney headed north bound because there was always a mass exodus from Jeep, headed to the convenience store and filling station on Stickney and Matzinger road. It was like the Indy 500 at noon when the Jeep workers would fly to the convenience store to get their big bottles of beer and sit in the parking lot and smoke dope for 1/2 hour and then go back to work higher than a kite. Was an everyday at noon thing.

Same deal at Fords in Saline, Michigan but instead of going to the convenience store, they would go out at lunchtime and sit in the employees outside lounge area and smoke dope and Fords never said boo crap. I used to deliver steel there and observed them. I guess Fords figured if they were stoned, they would be more productive, I guess. Of course now grass is legal here in Michigan but I imagine the same deal goes on.

I know some of the workers at both Jeep and Fords, saline and to a person they are basically lazy people who do as little as possible to keep their cushy jobs. That in a nutshell is why I'm not pro union. Unions always protect marginal employees.

In my working career, I delivered steel to just about every automotive plant in the Michigan, Ohio and Indiana area plus all the 2nd and 3rd tier suppliers and I'm here to tell you that the authorized suppliers who were almost all non union, the employees actually worked.

Think I told this before but I used to deliver sheet steel to Chrysler, Trenton Engine plant and the only way you could get unloaded was you had to buy stale doughnuts from the crane operator supervisor. If you didn't, you could sit there all day twiddling your thumbs. I always bought 2 stale sliders and tossed them on the rail tracks. 2 for 5 bucks, what a deal. Kind of the same deal at Fords Rouge assembly but instead of bankrolling the crane operator, you had to be EXACTLY on your pre arranged appointment time, not a minute early or late or you got to sit all day while they unloaded trucks around you.

Least I got paid hourly after sitting for the first hour so it wasn't a total loss for me. Most steel haulers were paid by the hundredweight so if they sat, they were screwed.

That all gave me a very bad opinion of unions in general.

 

[ruffdog]

A rising tide lifts all boats.

Toyota is raising the wages of its factory workers — all of them non-unionized — after the UAW strikes at General Motors, Ford and Stellantis culminated in pay hikes for unionized employees.

Why it matters: After reaching tentative deals with the Detroit Three, the UAW is setting its sights on organizing non-unionized automotive plants in the U.S. — with Toyota a possible target.

https://www.axios.com/2023/10/31/toyota-raises-uaw-strike-ford-gm

 

[gstrom99]

Think of it this way...

It doesn't bother me because I know I could quit tomorrow and be fine. But it grates on other guys that work harder than the long-term guys, yet get less compensation, only because of time, not ability or value.

That's how it's a good thing.

OK you convinced me, for the IDENTICAL job duties. Jobs that require long time experience, not so much. Where I worked (30 years), we had old (50+ years) insurance policies (some current and some long gone/expired) that the newbies knew nothing about handling the constant phone call/mail/email inquiries.