Need Your Thoughts On A New Welder

[Avenger]

Avenger: seems to me you're doing your homework here. if your existing house main can accommodate, think your decision to wire an appropriate 220 garage receptacle is a good one. for your run, you should find ample gauge info for 50A circuit run of that distance, looks like you already have

just a thought while you're considering the garage wiring.... i was in a similar situation yrs back wanting to add 220v woodworking, ect, machines to my limited space garage. since i was upgrading my house main circuit box @ the time, i decided to run an appropriate gauge cable to the garage for a 100 amp box there. from that garage 100A box, i ran dedicated 220 & 110 circuits for my machines (mounted on mobile bases so i could still park vehicle, etc)

since you're investing in a fairly heavy gauge cable for your run to the welder, with not a lot more, you could at least anchor a 100A box in your garage, then run your welder circuit.

just a long worded way of suggesting future options for you in a limited space but with ambitious shop designs. best regards

I started thinking the same thing. But the money is pretty tight as it is. That might be something I consider in the future. I know its better to "buy once, cry once" but I gotta get up and working. Besides, I only have 200amp service to the house. Maybe a 100amp service to the garage from my main panel will be better suited when I upgrade the service from the meter, to something like 400amp. But now we are talking some serious money. That will need to be hired out.

Thank you for the advice though!

 

[Sberry]

If the run is easy use a 2 2 2 4 alum cable and a 6 or 8 space mail lug, 6 is super cheap. Start with a 60A in the main. Its a 90 wire under this circumstances but the 60 is cheap and will work dandy. A circuit of 75 to 100 ft and the loads wont know they not right at the panel.
As to the specifics of a single welding circuit a 10/2 copper cable for almost all machnes except for heavy 250 feeders with hi duty cycles and up to 50A breaker. This will run Stickmate class machines and anything smaller that comes with a 50 plug. Nice thing about a panel is you can add an air comp circuit, a weld circuit and have a couple 120V for tooling and none of these type tools applied to any existing house circuits.
Most of the work in a common garage now really done from 15 and 20 circuits, even modern welders 20A@240, even 5 hp comp under 25 run A and the all those loads running most of the way on number 2 vs branches of 12 or 14.

 

[Sberry]

Something to consider with this is because you have a 90A wire dont mean you ever pull that,,, same for common 120V, having a 20A breaker is different than a 20A load. Only place breaker really provides thermal protection is for multiple outlets on a general circuit and panel to panel feeders.

 

[droptop]

The biggest hesitation I would have about buying a HF welder is not the quality, but the service repair if needed. I would be more inclined to buy a Chinese welder from a welding shop that would be able to service the unit if it broke. Lincoln, Hobart, Miller all have big service networks. Just one more thing to consider.

 

[jthibodeau89]

Installing a 100A sub panel does not necessarily require hiring out. And definitely doesn't require a 400A service. The sub panel is just a way to distribute power. I have 2ea 100A sub panels in my home and a 100A sub panel in the barn. The house came with the 2ea sub panels that were part of a remodel. I installed the 100A sub panel in my barn, and daisy chained subsequent 60A sub panels to a shed and shop. Main thing to remember is that sub panels must have separate neutral and ground conductors (2-2-2-4 AL), and the ground bonding strap must be removed from the sub panel. A separate ground rod to the ground bussbar in the sub panel is preferred, but not necessarily required. Your retired electrician friend can help to know if your local code requires the additional ground rod.

 

[fried1765]

I started thinking the same thing. But the money is pretty tight as it is. That might be something I consider in the future. I know its better to "buy once, cry once" but I gotta get up and working. Besides, I only have 200amp service to the house. Maybe a 100amp service to the garage from my main panel will be better suited when I upgrade the service from the meter, to something like 400amp. But now we are talking some serious money. That will need to be hired out.

Thank you for the advice though!

400 Amp service to your house, to feed a 100 Amp service panel in another building, is total overkill!
You can very reasonably run your 100 Amp service to the garage from your existing 200 Amp panel.
You could use 3 -#4 copper in PVC.

 

[PILOON]

In order to overload a 100 amp panel you would need the oven on, the range top and the hot water and the clothes drier all pulling at same time plus you welder cranked up using max amps.

Face it, most welding will be with 1/8 rods, intermittent at that, and you'll rarely be welding while there is a roast in the oven.

Also I've noted that most smaller welders (even rated for 200 amps) generally only have about #10 or 12 wire going to the plug.

The main thing is to use proper circuit protection for the gauge wire installed.

I'll bet that for most DIY welding projects you will rarely draw any serious amperage and for sure your 100 amp main can handle it above the normal household draw.

 

[the old grind]

Per OM for Power MTS 251si:

3.Power Input Cable and NEMA 6-50P Plug. This is the standard plug for welders operating on 240V in the US and Canada.

4. Fuse. 30A, slow blow. (internal) This controls the main power to the panel and fans... It’s a standard automotive type 30A slow blow type available at many auto parts and electronic supply stores.

If the wire feeder quits feeding, and all other signs are correct, it may be another fuse issue. The unit has an internal fuse on the board which is a 5A fuse."

Seems we don't need as much supply current with IGBT welders as with our buzz boxes, of which mine want up to 40a and I give 'em all a min of 50 with 10-50 gear (all the way adapter as needed for MIG/plasma). btw, lotta book to read, but all one could ask for.

 

[Frogmore]

Unless you have an electric furnace (not just a heat pump) or other very large loads even 200A service is way more than you will ever need. 200A@240V is 48KW. The maximum my house has ever drawn is about 20KW and that was for no more than about 2 min. That is with the well pump, septic pump, 2 electric water heaters and some other stuff running. Most of the time the load is under 5-7KW.

So, you do not need to upgrade your service. I have a 100A breaker in my main panel. It goes to a generator transfer switch/sub-panel. From there it goes to the panel that feeds the rest of the house and to a panel at the barnyard (50A). The panel at the barnyard goes to two additional panels (40A and 50A) and several circuits (15A or 30A). This is all fine, because there is never enough load to exceed any of the breakers. Many of the breakers would need to be at full load for any breaker to be overloaded. If that were to ever happen, that breaker would trip to protect the wiring/circuit.

Your welder is a significant load, but 30A is all it is likely to draw and probably not for too long at a time, unless you are into production welding. That is similar to a water heater or heat pump. Your service and main panel can handle it, no problem.

 

[fried1765]

In order to overload a 100 amp panel you would need the oven on, the range top and the hot water and the clothes drier all pulling at same time plus you welder cranked up using max amps.

Face it, most welding will be with 1/8 rods, intermittent at that, and you'll rarely be welding while there is a roast in the oven.

Also I've noted that most smaller welders (even rated for 200 amps) generally only have about #10 or 12 wire going to the plug.

The main thing is to use proper circuit protection for the gauge wire installed.

I'll bet that for most DIY welding projects you will rarely draw any serious amperage and for sure your 100 amp main can handle it above the normal household draw.

Exactly correct!

 

[big bubba]

interesting the way the discussion is now considering a 100A box for welding needs in garage. plus room to expand garage circuits if necessary. imho far more useful than a single receptacle or gen set.

 

[Sberry]

The biggest hesitation I would have about buying a HF welder is not the quality, but the service repair if needed. I would be more inclined to buy a Chinese welder from a welding shop that would be able to service the unit if it broke. Lincoln, Hobart, Miller all have big service networks. Just one more thing to consider.

You dont repair these economy welders, you replace. Every part is available, all assembled.
Agree that service upgrade is not needed in most cases, the weld for a hobby type is so intermittent its insignificant and garages dont really add much to real load calcs.
The cost to add a panel is modest as the wire for it is cheaper than a 6 copper, way cheaper. You could hook the same wire now to a 50A outlet if it was protected at 50A.
Individual welder circuits are one of the code exceptions for wire sizing and can be treated differently, this welder only needs a 10 even at 50A. Its allowed to use 12 if its single circuit in pipe even 50A breaker. This is the legal limit and for hi draw like a Stickmate type and wide open effects performance a bit on long circuits, its allowed about 75 ft but once the wire is sized up to a 10 the performance issues disappear.

 

[Sberry]

I got a bud came by wanting to fix some pos,,,, had ran it like arented mule for 5 years and ewants to fix it, got all excited when I told him every part available,,, 500,,, the same he paid for it 5 years ago. He should have bought a Miller,,, true it might be still working but it cost 4K and he be in it for 800 a year at this point vs the 100 with the Everlast.
Would need the Miller to last 40 years and spend 4K today. The lastest version of these modern welders now have fit and finish very good and now very reliable with long warranties. I am a Miller Fan, Red too and all for Hobart but the nature of tools and these machine make it hard to ignore the math.
In maintenance work some of these could pay in an event or 2.

 

[Sberry]

I didnt have a Maxstar and went to a punch list job on a site I solicitated for a call and the super was sort of surprised I came with a full truck and engine drive. The work could have been done small electric and there was power. I since got a Max, when I got it the imports were just blossoming and now they have came up to speed while the cost has tanked.

 

[Sberry]

If anyone told me in 95 I would buy a sub 300$ DC welder in 2021, or a 50$ battery drill I would have said bale****. I gonna buy another 50$ drill. Last one I bought was 150 before a 150 battery. Paid 150 for a blue 9.6in 92, the cheap azz PC at Wally was 50 with better battery, better run, more power and lighter.
I spose new wire feeds are the same way so not exactly where the money balances out but for the hobby and a lot of pros, maint setups for the new entrants to the welding world would start with 2 machines I would want anyway, a 200 mig and a 150 dvi stick inverter.
Boith at hobby level prices, disposable like a modest TV, way less than old stero back in the day, we paid 300 for some pos now cost 30.

 

[Sberry]

A DC Stickmate was 350 in 82 and 550 when they recently retire the same model. Can get a green dc dvi for near 250 I believe, hadn't really end priced them but the machine does the same work and as the ultimate bonus runs from 120V, put out 90A with 100 ft of cord.
Another bonus is the local infinite current adjustment, really handy dandy for fussy work with small electrodes. I still use my red buzzer, it works well enough but a couple A adjustment would be a bit advantage for position, fit all that not so controllable. Maybe more vert than overhead.
A good share of the worlds welding work done small electrode. 1/2 a nuke plant build with 3/32 at 92A

 

[Avenger]

So it seems a sub-panel is the way to go. People have mentioned 2-2-2-4 aluminum wire. I'll admit, I know nothing of this wire. Some googling did help, but seems like it is all wire for burying. I will need to run this wire though the house. I suspect that a conduit could/should be used? But at the rate of building materials these days, if I have to buy conduit with aluminum wire, is there any real savings over Romex? Getting back to the wire, can someone recommend a 2-2-2-4 wire that I should use for this 100ft run?
Along those same lines, I know nothing of sub-panel installs. If I was made of money, this would be hired out. But since I'm stretched very thin on this project already, and the wife keeps bugging me about how much more this welder is going to cost, I need to do the work myself. My retired friend is apparently out of the state visiting family for the summer. He is unavailable.

As to the amount of power I have in the home. Currently have a 200amp service. That services a few MAJOR circuits already in the home. To name a few: range, dryer, heat pump and AC, furnace, 50amp brewery, two well pumps (yes, two.), and a host of smaller 110 circuits. I get that not everything is running at full capacity 100% of the time. However, the well pumps kick on, the AC kicks on, the wife fires up the dryer, puts a kettle on the stove while she does her laundry, while I'm outside welding in the garage. It's possible that the house will pull 200 amps.

But I'm certainly not opposed to it running this circuit/sub-panel. I just know that I will need more power, eventually.

I can, in the main panel, make space for a 100amp breaker.

 

[fried1765]

So it seems a sub-panel is the way to go. People have mentioned 2-2-2-4 aluminum wire. I'll admit, I know nothing of this wire. Some googling did help, but seems like it is all wire for burying. I will need to run this wire though the house. I suspect that a conduit could/should be used? But at the rate of building materials these days, if I have to buy conduit with aluminum wire, is there any real savings over Romex? Getting back to the wire, can someone recommend a 2-2-2-4 wire that I should use for this 100ft run?
Along those same lines, I know nothing of sub-panel installs. If I was made of money, this would be hired out. But since I'm stretched very thin on this project already, and the wife keeps bugging me about how much more this welder is going to cost, I need to do the work myself. My retired friend is apparently out of the state visiting family for the summer. He is unavailable.

As to the amount of power I have in the home. Currently have a 200amp service. That services a few MAJOR circuits already in the home. To name a few: range, dryer, heat pump and AC, furnace, 50amp brewery, two well pumps (yes, two.), and a host of smaller 110 circuits. I get that not everything is running at full capacity 100% of the time. However, the well pumps kick on, the AC kicks on, the wife fires up the dryer, puts a kettle on the stove while she does her laundry, while I'm outside welding in the garage. It's possible that the house will pull 200 amps.

But I'm certainly not opposed to it running this circuit/sub-panel. I just know that I will need more power, eventually.

I can, in the main panel, make space for a 100amp breaker.

"I can in the main panel, make space for a 100 amp breaker"
Do that!

 

[LouNY]

2-2-2-4 SER cable is good for 100 amps and looks to be $1.50 per foot at Home Depot's.
The last I knew SER cable can be run any where romex is allowed.

"SER is used for powering the service drop to the meter base and the meter base to the distribution panel board. It is also used for dryers, A/C units, ranges and heat pumps. It is available with 2, 3 or 4 conductors."

 

[Avenger]

Thank you!