Heating my pole barn (ND Edition)

[bigtiller]

When my 54x75x14 tin shed was built we also put in the finished ceiling with 15 inches of blown-in fiberglass insulation. Just having the ceiling insulated was really helpful. It was always warmer in the winter and much cooler in the summer. If you do nothing else, I recommend to insulate the ceiling to an R54 or higher seeing how you are further north than me.

4 years later we finished the walls off, which brings us to today.
There is still no heat out there but I think I can get by without it.

It has gone through 2 winters and it never has frozen out there yet.....
I record the temperature EVERY day at 3:00 pm~.
Summers are even better, It's never been above 80 degrees... at 3:00 pm.

So you may be able to get by without heat.

 

[grsthegreat]

When I heated my insulated 2-car garage to work on a Jeep, I really went through the propane. That was only heating to 60F with a 30,000btu modine type heater.

Part of the problem is 30,000 btu isnt much heat. My unit is either 125,000 or 150,000....i forget. but either way it bumps out the cold real fast. it does eat up some propane, but since it heats so high and fast, it doesnt need to run very long. within 30 minutes of activation, i can remove my jacket and shut off heater while continuing the work in shop at a comfortable level.

 

[RSR]

How much is your heating bill for the house? Are you willing to pay 2-5 times that to heat the shop (Just a guess based on relative volumes), not to mention the cost of installing the insulation?

I agree with other posters here. Decide what size you really need to have heated, then section that off, and insulate very well.

 

[Deere Dude]

Have you ever considered the cost of splitting the big shop up and how it would make it more difficult moving big equipment in and out?

I would consider the cost of just adding a shop on the extended eve end of maybe 28x32' or whatever size you would need for a workshop and keep the big shop open and used for what is in there now. Maybe even make it a full stand alone building. I doubt it would be any more expensive than carving your pole shed down.

 

[RSR]

I just went back and checked your original dimensions. That barn is roughly like trying to heat a 5,600 sq ft house!!!! (2,800 feet on two levels with roughly 7 foot ceilings). That is HUGE (and will be expensive).

As you've alluded to, distribution of any heat throughout that large of volume is going to be a major challenge too.

 

[grsthegreat]

if you heat it 24/7 all winter....than yes. but to take the chill off and have a comfortable work environment than no.

sectioning off the shop doesnt help if you want to work on your truck during the winter. I simply heat entire shop for 30 minutes, then turn it off. makes for a nice work space. if it gets too cold in a few hours, heat for 30 minutes again.

 

[RSR]

if you heat it 24/7 all winter....than yes. but to take the chill off and have a comfortable work environment than no.

sectioning off the shop doesnt help if you want to work on your truck during the winter. I simply heat entire shop for 30 minutes, then turn it off. makes for a nice work space. if it gets too cold in a few hours, heat for 30 minutes again.

How large of shop do you have?

If it's similarly sized, that may be an option, but he has a very large volume to heat. My point is he could section it to 1/4th the size (20 ft x 35 ft) and still have plenty of room to work on vehicles, etc.

 

[grsthegreat]

How large of shop do you have?

If it's similarly sized, that may be an option, but he has a very large volume to heat. My point is he could section it to 1/4th the size (20 ft x 35 ft) and still have plenty of room to work on vehicles, etc.

my shop is 30' x 40 feet , 14' rafters. 1/2 of side walls are all that i have insulated so far. will continue that this summer.

i understand your idea. it is just i know people in the dakotas. their winters SUCK. especially north dakota. if he doesnt get heat to entire shop, even a little heat, he wont use shop in winter.

 

[ericm979]

If you want to make it a shop space you really want a concrete floor. And you could lay pex in it for radiant floor heat. (as many others have pointed out).

Isn't the usual deal for pole buildings that the base boards make the form for the slab? If that's the case then you'll be saving that part of the labor. If you can do some or all of the prep work, insulation and pex yourself, you could save more.

Since air to air heat exchangers (i.e. mini splits) won't work for your kind of cold, you're pretty much stuck with gas of some kind. But I think that gas heating a radiant floor is pretty efficient. And adding a propane tank next to the shop won't cost that much. My wife was living in a house with heated floors when we met. It's really nice, even in coastal California where it doesn't get that cold.

Putting in a metal ceiling and insulation above it will be an inexpensive way to insulate the ceiling and would let you ventilate the roof area which will make the building cooler in the summer. It also would cut down on the air volume you're heating.

Some people leave spray foam bare but I think it looks terrible and would be a fire hazard. At a minimum it seems like it would collect dirt and be difficult to clean. You could line the walls with 29g ag panel, which is pretty cheap and looks good (to me anyhow).

Some metal building constructors won't warranty if there's spray foam applied to the inside. Others think it's fine. It's a hotly debated topic.

If you can find a way to swing it now you'll be set for a long time. The older you get the harder it is to get stuff done, and the sooner you do it the the more use you'll get out of it.

 

[ruffdog]

Would the OP pay more in taxes if the building is finished with heat? I know he would where I live. Unless he is going to make a bunch of money on that shop space, he may want to think about this some more.

 

[Slowpoke Slim]

Appreciate the replies so far. I have lots of things to consider, and probably a few years before I can implement at least some of it. As it sits now, it is really just a storage building with overhead lights. At least my RV and tractor are now under a roof when parked.

I do like the idea of leaving the floor plan open. I know that makes the insulating and heating a larger issue, but I hate to chop up the space into smaller chunks, as it would make it harder to move equipment around, and reposition trailers and attachments when desired.

I'm not looking to turn it into a living space, or heat it as you would the inside of a continuously occupied house. But if I could get it at least up to zero degrees in dead of winter, or even better would be +30 or +40 F, when I desired to be out there, that would be enough. I doubt I would leave the heat on all the time (unless it was an in floor radiant system, I know those take forever to heat up), but thinking more for "demand heat" when I knew I would be out there for a while (few hours at least). Just going out there to grab a step ladder or similar, I wouldn't bother with the heat, just grab it and go.

But I'm thinking about some kind of general "area" heat, try to get the entire space up to 0 F, and with maybe a couple of spot heat sources near where I'm actually working to drive that space up to around +30 F or +40 F? I know that may sound silly to some, but makes a big difference in being able to work in a light jacket and *maybe* no gloves (when needed) vs. being in a parka, bib overalls and heavy gloves constantly (like I would be now, no heat/insulation).

I keep my heated garage at +50 F, and I can comfortably work out there in a T-shirt if I'm moving around some. Just sitting still (reloading), I'll bump that up to +60 F, and it's very comfortable.

A few random things that were mentioned...

I have no idea if there's any warranty left on the building? We just bought this place from original owners (this past summer), I believe the shop building was built in 2015? No idea who the builder was. I doubt there's a warranty on anything.

No idea on the taxes. I doubt there's anything to do there. I don't think the county cares since it's a shop building (and yes, it does show up on the property/tax description).

I'm leaning towards spray foam (closed cell, thanks to Eddie), and possibly putting in a ceiling with blown insulation above it. Rest is still a blank canvas.

 

[srs]

Slim, When I did the insulation on my Morton building I purchased rolled insulation from them. It was (I believe) 6 inches thick and it fit exactly between the posts. It was ONE piece from ceiling to floor and post to post. I then placed a plastic vapor barrier over (ceiling to floor, one big piece) then ran horizontal 2 x 4's before placing OSB on all the walls. Great insulation for the price. One problem for me, I did the insulation by myself and it gets quite heavy. For two people it would be a piece of cake and I did it when I was about 60 years old.

One of the problems from what I've read with regard to spray foam is "oil canning" where the metal roof is deformed by using spray foam directly onto the metal. See attached photos I got off the internet. If you look at the videos below when spray foam is used there is alway some kind of backing on the metal, I'm guessing to eliminate the oil canning. For additional info you can google "oil canning", also rolled insulation to use in a pole barn. Good luck, Stanley

Insulation: 5 steps to a more efficient building and why I don't use spray foam - YouTube
How to Build a Garage Addition 22: Installing Spray Foam Insulation - YouTube
How to Build a Garage #8 Insulation, ceiling, wall finishes - YouTube

 

[bigtiller]

Appreciate the replies so far. I have lots of things to consider, and probably a few years before I can implement at least some of it. As it sits now, it is really just a storage building with overhead lights. At least my RV and tractor are now under a roof when parked.

I do like the idea of leaving the floor plan open. I know that makes the insulating and heating a larger issue, but I hate to chop up the space into smaller chunks, as it would make it harder to move equipment around, and reposition trailers and attachments when desired.

I'm not looking to turn it into a living space, or heat it as you would the inside of a continuously occupied house. But if I could get it at least up to zero degrees in dead of winter, or even better would be +30 or +40 F, when I desired to be out there, that would be enough. I doubt I would leave the heat on all the time (unless it was an in floor radiant system, I know those take forever to heat up), but thinking more for "demand heat" when I knew I would be out there for a while (few hours at least). Just going out there to grab a step ladder or similar, I wouldn't bother with the heat, just grab it and go.

But I'm thinking about some kind of general "area" heat, try to get the entire space up to 0 F, and with maybe a couple of spot heat sources near where I'm actually working to drive that space up to around +30 F or +40 F? I know that may sound silly to some, but makes a big difference in being able to work in a light jacket and *maybe* no gloves (when needed) vs. being in a parka, bib overalls and heavy gloves constantly (like I would be now, no heat/insulation).

I keep my heated garage at +50 F, and I can comfortably work out there in a T-shirt if I'm moving around some. Just sitting still (reloading), I'll bump that up to +60 F, and it's very comfortable.

A few random things that were mentioned...

I have no idea if there's any warranty left on the building? We just bought this place from original owners (this past summer), I believe the shop building was built in 2015? No idea who the builder was. I doubt there's a warranty on anything.

No idea on the taxes. I doubt there's anything to do there. I don't think the county cares since it's a shop building (and yes, it does show up on the property/tax description).

I'm leaning towards spray foam (closed cell, thanks to Eddie), and possibly putting in a ceiling with blown insulation above it. Rest is still a blank canvas.

Your building is large enough that if it was well insulated and with tight doors and windows, there will be enough radiant heat coming from the ground to keep it warmer than 0 F.

My building is running in the high 40's right now, with no supplemental heat. FYI, I am just below the 40th parallel.

 

[gstrom99]

EXACTLY!
Concrete 1/2 the floor.
Build a divider wall!
Make 1/2 ceiling of steel siding material.
Blow insulation on top.
Insulate sidewalls - 1/2 of bldg.
Add insulated ovhd. door to other end.
Use propane unit heater....easy on/off, no mess!

That's my plan for my 54x72 barn (currently with a dirt floor). I'm going to pour a concrete pad, with PEX radiant heat tubing, in a 28 x 54 foot section and build a shop inside the barn (well insulated) and 14 foot roof (long span "floor" trusses), with a 2 post lift. May use Modine Hawg heaters, if I don't fire up the in-floor heat.