Heating my pole barn (ND Edition)

[Slowpoke Slim]

I didn't want to hijack an existing thread. This would be the "North Dakota" Edition... and yeah, it really does get to -40F here in winter (although not THIS winter for some reason).

I'm kicking around the idea of heating my new pole barn. We just moved in this past summer, bought an existing house with an existing pole barn, so still lots of things to square away at the new place. Lower on the list, but still there is looking at my 40x70x14' wall pole barn. It is new construction (~5 years), has power and lights (100 amp panel), but no insulation and no heat source. Also sadly, it is a gravel floor. I think it's crushed concrete. Mrs. Slim said at time of purchase that we could just have a concrete floor poured (lol, yeah ok Dear, whatever you say - wait until you find out how much THAT will cost ). Lets just say I doubt it ever gets concreted. Lets also just say that Mrs. Slim fell in love with this house immediately when she saw it, so this is where we live now. Call it a "compromise". Lol.

Anyway, first step to me would be to insulate the shell, probably just keep it simple and spray foam the entire inside (open rafters) and whatever R value we end up with is what we'll have. There is a roll up door at one end, 16'x14' high that I'll probably put foam panels on, and there's a barn-style sliding door at the other end that's probably 12'x14' high that I'll do the same. There's only one walk in door to access the building. When it's all closed up, it is surprisingly air tight. No roof vents to deal with.

The next biggest issue I will have is there is currently only electrical power on site for choice for heat source. We have no propane on site, house is all electric. It (the house) does have a geothermal system, with backup electric forced air furnace for supplemental heat, so the house is "good". We're out in the county, so no natural gas would ever be available. I don't really want to heat that large of air space (the shop) with electric heat, as in my mind that would be frightfully expensive. I think the cheapest option would either be a large double barrel (55 gal drum type) wood burning stove, or maybe a pellet stove. Maybe more than one pellet stove. That or bring in a propane tank and go with ceiling mounted propane fired furnace(s), or ceiling mounted radiant.

The goal wouldn't be to get the whole place up to "T-shirt temperature", but would like to be able to keep it above zero, or better yet, above freezing when I'm out there. Even if it's an area near to the heat source that I could still work around in when needed. I do have a heated and insulated oversized 2 car garage attached to the house that has my "shop" setup in it now. Tools, saws, large (220v) shop air compressor and reloading bench. But right now, that takes away one parking spot inside.

Right now the shop building is just being used for storage/parking. My 34' 5th wheel RV trailer (winterized), 18' flatbed car trailer, tractor + implements, riding mower, etc, are all parked out there. There's also plenty of spare room out there (for now, lol, I know shop space tends to evaporate over time). I wouldn't mind getting some of my space back in the attached garage though. Would be nice to park my truck inside a heated garage in winter time. Wife's car goes in the one side, but the other half of garage space is currently my "shop".

So kicking around ideas really. I've even thought about bringing in a smallish construction office trailer and parking it in the shop building on footings. That would give me another insulated area that would be easier to heat and keep warm, but how useful would that space really be vs. open shop area. I would probably keep my reloading shop in the garage, but wouldn't mind moving the rest out to the shop building eventually.

Not in a hurry for any of this, wife has informed me that this is our "last house". Lol. But pondering these things gives me stuff to do this winter. So far there's no snow to move, and nothing to mow, so lots of spare time to "ponder things".

Thoughts?







These are from closing, the day we got the keys. The shop has more "stuff" in it now. Lol.

 

[GSVette]

I have a 40x60x14 pole building that I heat and cool with a heat pump. With your very low cold temperatures it probably wouldn’t be sufficient by itself but combined with wood or propane it might suffice and you get air conditioning.

Insulation is the first key- I have R-21 batt in the walls and the ceiling. Significantly less expensive than spray foam. My 16x12 garage door is insulated but does not have near the R value of the walls/roof.

Careful sealing of the doors/windows cuts off major cold leakage.

Not really sure the gravel floor is any better/ worse than my uninsulated concrete floor. In retrospect I wish I’d taken the time to at least provision for in floor heat.

 

[Slowpoke Slim]

I admit I'm jealous of your concrete floor. At least you can drive a lift over it, or use a floor jack on it.

I'm honestly not sure how I'd get up into the rafters to roll insulation on it, that and I'm not exactly a spring chicken anymore to be doing such things. Main reason I was thinking spray foam was just so I didn't have to get "up there". I have electric lifts I can borrow from work, but not the big boom lift type that I would need to go over the gravel surface with. I guess I could stand on the roof of the 5th wheel and use that as a scaffolding... would be able to get it around in there to do most of it, maybe. I think the roll insulation would be better R value for sure.

The building is pleasantly air tight, so even during a wind storm (we get those too), at 50+ mph, the only air leakage is around the sides of the sliding barn door on the one corner.

 

[civilian]

......

Not really sure the gravel floor is any better/ worse than my uninsulated concrete floor. In retrospect I wish I’d taken the time to at least provision for in floor heat.

OP could take advantage of the gravel floor to insulate the floor, laying in pex tubing and pouring concrete for a heated floor. Use a high effieciency(sp?) propane boiler for heat source. Or add an outdoor wood boiler to heat the floor. Or maybe just parts of the floor and partition off areas for cold storage areas. I have a garage with heated floors from a wood boiler, my work shop has a propane boiler with a dividing wall to separate the rest of the building for cold storage. Just ideas for OP. Jon

 

[civilian]

.......

The building is pleasantly air tight, so even during a wind storm (we get those too), at 50+ mph, the only air leakage is around the sides of the sliding barn door on the one corner.

For the sliding door, build a panel to cover it on the inside to seal the air leaks. Jon

 

[GSVette]

I admit I'm jealous of your concrete floor. At least you can drive a lift over it, or use a floor jack on it.

I'm honestly not sure how I'd get up into the rafters to roll insulation on it, that and I'm not exactly a spring chicken anymore to be doing such things. Main reason I was thinking spray foam was just so I didn't have to get "up there". I have electric lifts I can borrow from work, but not the big boom lift type that I would need to go over the gravel surface with. I guess I could stand on the roof of the 5th wheel and use that as a scaffolding... would be able to get it around in there to do most of it, maybe. I think the roll insulation would be better R value for sure.

The building is pleasantly air tight, so even during a wind storm (we get those too), at 50+ mph, the only air leakage is around the sides of the sliding barn door on the one corner.

I was going to do the roof insulation myself but decided it was worth the $4k to have someone else do it ( I did all of the walls myself). They did the entire installation from scaffolds. Said it was easier than a man lift ( and cheaper) when I asked.

 

[s219]

I would hope they put down a vapor barrier under that gravel floor when the barn was built. If that is unknown, maybe you can gently dig in a corner to see if you find one. That would be the #1 thing to remedy if it's not already in place.

If you have access to cheap firewood, seems like that is a no-brainer for on-demand heat. Add a few ceiling fans or a blower and it will help spread the heat around. But offhand, it seems challenging to heat a 40x70 barn with wood for short periods of time. I suspect it will just begin feeling warm when you have to close up for the day and head out. A heat pump system would work in milder months, but when it gets really cold, forget about it. Geo would be great but I suspect the cost will be insane for just a barn.

Do they still have oil heat out there? In CT, my dad had a large steel building (about 120x120 with 20' walls) and it was heated with oil. There were oil-fired hot air units mounted up in the corners of the building. He just used them to keep the temps tolerable in the winter months, probably 60F. I imagine you could do the same thing with propane too -- just need to have a tank installed and line up delivery.

 

[Slowpoke Slim]

OP could take advantage of the gravel floor to insulate the floor, laying in pex tubing and pouring concrete for a heated floor. Use a high effieciency(sp?) propane boiler for heat source. Or add an outdoor wood boiler to heat the floor. Or maybe just parts of the floor and partition off areas for cold storage areas. I have a garage with heated floors from a wood boiler, my work shop has a propane boiler with a dividing wall to separate the rest of the building for cold storage. Just ideas for OP. Jon

Honestly, I'd love to have a concrete floor. The last time I had concrete quoted here (5 years ago?) it was $6 a foot. And that was the cheapest (and probably not the best-guy ended up being a snake). I don't think the Finance Minister is going to go along with that one. Lol. Maybe "someday". I think if I ever did manage to get that one past the CFO, I would have the pipes put in for floor heat just so they were there.

 

[ruffdog]

That building is a giant space to heat and all the heat is going to go up to the ceiling (ceiling fans?). Unless you are ready to insulate that big box, I would get a torpedo heater and crack the doors open. Heat the space only when you need it. If you want a better radiant type heater that has almost no odors and burns diesel, go with a Sunfire heater. You will heaters like that on the sidelines of football games too. If you plan to be out in the shop all the time, get ready to $pend some ca$h.

SunFire | Industrial Grade Radiant Heaters

Do you have access to lots of waste oil? Heat with that....

Lanair Waste Oil Heaters

 

[Slowpoke Slim]

For the sliding door, build a panel to cover it on the inside to seal the air leaks. Jon

I may do a rubber flap down the sides. It's just along the sides where the door rests against the wall. And this was literally 50 mph gusts at the time. Rest of the building was tight, and no rattles either.

 

[grsthegreat]

your lucky that they forgot to install a insulated vapor barrier under the metal roof......here they call it a condensation barrier. i wish they did not install one on my shop. thats the reason no insulation foam company will blow insulate my ceiling panels. the foam wont adhear properly on the metal, and can fall off. i had 3 bids, and 3 "cant do it". I LOVE blow on insulation. Best way to get building vapor tight.

when i built my shop i could not afford to insulate it. i regret not getting a loan to do it back in 1996. now i have the miserable task of pulling everything out , framing walls , adding fiberglass insulation and sheathing walls. I did eveything backwards. Now I have to move air lines, extend electrical boxes, you name it.

It probably would have been better to tear down my 30x40 shop and start over with a larger shop, foamed walls and lids, steel covered ceiling (love them), and heated concrete floor with boiler, and TALLER walls so i could have a auto floor jack installed. But like the wife would let that fly.

Im in north Idaho and I use a ceiling mounted propane heater. works great, easy to warm up shop as needed. if i was needing to use shop every day i would install a pellet stove, but im not interested in whittling away my life in the shop. too lazy to be that lazy.

 

[LouNY]

An interesting site here;
Insulation For Sale | Prodex Total Insulation | Insulation For Less | Buy Insulation | Insulation pricing

Have you considered a partition to create a smaller workshop in one end or corner,
maybe using rolling doors to be able to access the other area at different times.

 

[Slowpoke Slim]

I would hope they put down a vapor barrier under that gravel floor when the barn was built. If that is unknown, maybe you can gently dig in a corner to see if you find one. That would be the #1 thing to remedy if it's not already in place.

If you have access to cheap firewood, seems like that is a no-brainer for on-demand heat. Add a few ceiling fans or a blower and it will help spread the heat around. But offhand, it seems challenging to heat a 40x70 barn with wood for short periods of time. I suspect it will just begin feeling warm when you have to close up for the day and head out. A heat pump system would work in milder months, but when it gets really cold, forget about it. Geo would be great but I suspect the cost will be insane for just a barn.

Do they still have oil heat out there? In CT, my dad had a large steel building (about 120x120 with 20' walls) and it was heated with oil. There were oil-fired hot air units mounted up in the corners of the building. He just used them to keep the temps tolerable in the winter months, probably 60F. I imagine you could do the same thing with propane too -- just need to have a tank installed and line up delivery.

I don't think there's any barrier under the gravel. Placing anything directly on the gravel surface, then lifting it up later, and there's a damp spot in the shape of the object. I try to put everything up on pallets or similar for now. Still need to clap together some shelving in there to get more stuff off the ground. Made the mistake of laying a shop vice on the gravel and forgetting about it, came back and the handle end that buried into the gravel was heavily surface rusted. I do think I'm going to have to dig it all out and do something about that. Maybe this summer.

Your right about the short heat cycle issues with such a large air space to heat. I think propane would be fastest way to heat it up. I may go that way eventually, like say after the floor gets concreted (ok, dreaming here). My work (day job) has a shop space that's pretty close in size, insulated, (concrete floors) and with combo of ceiling mounted gas fired furnaces, plus overhead radiant gas heat, does a surprisingly good job warming the area up, and recovering heat when the big doors have been open for truck traffic.

One of the houses we looked at had a geothermal that was dead. Failed the home inspection (homeowner/seller-"Oh, we didn't know it wasn't working"- yeah, right lady). Anyway, the quote for a new one was over $15K to replace the head end side, and the seller wasn't interested in paying for it, or lowering the sale price. So yeah, that's one we wrote off. Can't imagine what it would cost to dig in a new one. I think Mrs. Slim would let me get concrete before she let that happen. Lol.

I don't think oil heat is still a service out here. I've seen guys using oil fired burners, but they're all on their own as far as getting oil supplied. I think the few I've seen all scrounge their own sources of used or "waste" oil.

 

[Slowpoke Slim]

That building is a giant space to heat and all the heat is going to go up to the ceiling (ceiling fans?). Unless you are ready to insulate that big box, I would get a torpedo heater and crack the doors open. Heat the space only when you need it. If you want a better radiant type heater that has almost no odors and burns diesel, go with a Sunfire heater. You will heaters like that on the sidelines of football games too. If you plan to be out in the shop all the time, get ready to $pend some ca$h.

SunFire | Industrial Grade Radiant Heaters

Do you have access to lots of waste oil? Heat with that....

Lanair Waste Oil Heaters

Yeah, I don't plan on trying to heat it at all until I get it insulated. It's going to be tough enough to heat WITH insulation.

 

[EddieWalker]

That's a lot of building to keep warm. What type of projects do you want to do in there? I think it would make more sense to decide on how much space you actually need and then focus on just that area. Build some walls and deal with making that work area nice and warm.

Foam is a great thing, but there are two types and the difference between them is significant. Closed cell is the best. It gives you R6 per inch and it stops all air flow. It's also a lot harder to work with and the components are more expensive. Open cell gives you about the same R value per inch as blown in insulation. It's a lot cheaper then closed cell and easier to install. Open cell holds moisture and when sprayed up against things like metal, it allows condensation to form inside of the foam. This leads to mold, and eventually failure of the foam and metal. The metal will rust on the underside, where the foam is touching it. Here, open cell foam voids the warrantee from the metal supplier. In my opinion, open cell foam is junk and it should never be used on a house for any reason.

You can install fiberglass rolls on the walls. This is going to take some framing to create a way to attach it. You can get the rolls 22.5 inches wide, so you will need a stud every 24 inches on center. R19 is pretty standard for walls.

If you spray closed cell on the walls, you will not have to do any framing to hold it in place. 3 inches of closed cell will give you the same R value, but it will also give you better wind protection from what might get through the metal siding.

With your trusses giving you such a nice flat ceiling area, I would consider installing metal siding for a ceiling and then blowing in 2 feet of Attic Cat insulation. It's super easy to do yourself, and 2 feet will give you R60, which is considered the point where you wont gain anything if you make the insulation any thicker.

 

[Slowpoke Slim]

An interesting site here;
Insulation For Sale | Prodex Total Insulation | Insulation For Less | Buy Insulation | Insulation pricing

Have you considered a partition to create a smaller workshop in one end or corner,
maybe using rolling doors to be able to access the other area at different times.

Thanks for the website Lou, I bookmarked that to go back and read later when I have time to study it.

It's still kind of a blank canvas inside, but one thing I learned during our "big snows" this October (ok, our only snows), was that the sliding barn door on the side wall will not open once the upper rail track fills with ice and snow. Right now that rail is exposed under the edge of the roof. I will look at doing something for that this summer too. But my original plan to keep my flatbed trailer backed in there sitting on "standby" to haul the tractor out for off site snow removal jobs had to be changed. For now, it's backed in the main roll up door and pushed back behind where the tractor is parked so I can at least get it out of the building this winter if I need to.

 

[Slowpoke Slim]

That's a lot of building to keep warm. What type of projects do you want to do in there? I think it would make more sense to decide on how much space you actually need and then focus on just that area. Build some walls and deal with making that work area nice and warm.

Foam is a great thing, but there are two types and the difference between them is significant. Closed cell is the best. It gives you R6 per inch and it stops all air flow. It's also a lot harder to work with and the components are more expensive. Open cell gives you about the same R value per inch as blown in insulation. It's a lot cheaper then closed cell and easier to install. Open cell holds moisture and when sprayed up against things like metal, it allows condensation to form inside of the foam. This leads to mold, and eventually failure of the foam and metal. The metal will rust on the underside, where the foam is touching it. Here, open cell foam voids the warrantee from the metal supplier. In my opinion, open cell foam is junk and it should never be used on a house for any reason.

You can install fiberglass rolls on the walls. This is going to take some framing to create a way to attach it. You can get the rolls 22.5 inches wide, so you will need a stud every 24 inches on center. R19 is pretty standard for walls.

If you spray closed cell on the walls, you will not have to do any framing to hold it in place. 3 inches of closed cell will give you the same R value, but it will also give you better wind protection from what might get through the metal siding.

With your trusses giving you such a nice flat ceiling area, I would consider installing metal siding for a ceiling and then blowing in 2 feet of Attic Cat insulation. It's super easy to do yourself, and 2 feet will give you R60, which is considered the point where you wont gain anything if you make the insulation any thicker.

Thank you, Eddie. I didn't know there was a difference in foam.

I think I'd at least like to use it for more than a cold storage building. Eventually, with a proper floor in it, I'd like to move most of my "shop" stuff out there. Then be able to work on my own auto repairs, woodworking (I dabble, not professional) projects, be able to use floor jacks/jack stands, set up my table saw, shop press, drill press, grinder, maybe move my 220 compressor out there. Use the attached garage for parking car + truck (I've heard people do this? Lol, I don't know what my truck would do if it could be parked indoors, probably quite running from the shock of it all), and use the shop building for everything else.

I know it won't all happen at once. But if I'm changing/upgrading things, I'd like to do so with the "long term" view of having it rigged up to run a shop out of when it's done? Not sure that I was any help there to you.

 

[fried1765]

An interesting site here;
Insulation For Sale | Prodex Total Insulation | Insulation For Less | Buy Insulation | Insulation pricing

Have you considered a partition to create a smaller workshop in one end or corner,
maybe using rolling doors to be able to access the other area at different times.

EXACTLY!
Concrete 1/2 the floor.
Build a divider wall!
Make 1/2 ceiling of steel siding material.
Blow insulation on top.
Insulate sidewalls - 1/2 of bldg.
Add insulated ovhd. door to other end.
Use propane unit heater....easy on/off, no mess!

 

[EddieWalker]

Thank you, Eddie. I didn't know there was a difference in foam.

I think I'd at least like to use it for more than a cold storage building. Eventually, with a proper floor in it, I'd like to move most of my "shop" stuff out there. Then be able to work on my own auto repairs, woodworking (I dabble, not professional) projects, be able to use floor jacks/jack stands, set up my table saw, shop press, drill press, grinder, maybe move my 220 compressor out there. Use the attached garage for parking car + truck (I've heard people do this? Lol, I don't know what my truck would do if it could be parked indoors, probably quite running from the shock of it all), and use the shop building for everything else.

I know it won't all happen at once. But if I'm changing/upgrading things, I'd like to do so with the "long term" view of having it rigged up to run a shop out of when it's done? Not sure that I was any help there to you.

That's kind of what I was thinking. I would get some graph paper and figure out how much area you need for the shop, and how much you need for storing vehicles and stuff. The shop area could get concrete for a nice floor to work off of. Maybe even run PEX through the concrete so you can warm the floor.

 

[ruffdog]

Yeah, I don't plan on trying to heat it at all until I get it insulated. It's going to be tough enough to heat WITH insulation.

When I heated my insulated 2-car garage to work on a Jeep, I really went through the propane. That was only heating to 60F with a 30,000btu modine type heater.