Buying Advice: Tractor Sizing

[4570Man]

I usually lost more than I packed out of a pile. I guess I expect more productivity than I should.

Moving logs on my dump truck is easy. Loading logs is easy. 2 straps to tie down a load of logs is easy. Handling rounds is something I try to avoid doing because it’s just a mess. Now if I could convince my dad. His mindset must be something like “hey lets cut 2 sticks of firewood off that log so we can move the rest of it somewhere else and then we can run over the 2 rounds and possibly bend a wheel and mash the rounds in the ground and then run around the whole woods chasing down piles of 3 stick of wood “

 

[Citydude]

Moving logs on my dump truck is easy. Loading logs is easy. 2 straps to tie down a load of logs is easy. Handling rounds is something I try to avoid doing because it’s just a mess. Now if I could convince my dad. His mindset must be something like “hey lets cut 2 sticks of firewood off that log so we can move the rest of it somewhere else and then we can run over the 2 rounds and possibly bend a wheel and mash the rounds in the ground and then run around the whole woods chasing down piles of 3 stick of wood “

Well, your dad has a process. Sounds like mine

 

[RSR]

The one disappointment with my grapple (EA Wicked 60" double lid) has been picking up firewood rounds. It's no better than the bucket was.. maybe slightly worse. I think it'd be even worse at picking up split firewood. It could be that I need more practice but I have loaded a couple large gooseneck trailers with rounds using it and I have not gotten even a little better. For every other task it's been better than expected. So I'm not disappointed. But you may be if picking up firewood was the primary reason for getting it. I'd at least talk to people who have tried to pick up split firewood with a grapple and pay close attention to the spacing between the tines. Most grapples (like mine) have wide enough spacing that burnable size material can fall through.

Could you task the boys with stacking firewood in the boxes (or do it yourself) and then use forks to move them?

Kubota rates their loaders at a distance from the pins (I think it's 18" but could be wrong) while most everyone else rates them at the pins. You don't often pick up something by the pins so that inflates the rating somewhat.

My Branson dealer ships. Others do as well. So far I've only needed filters.

Kubota documentation specifies the lift capacity at both the pivot pin and 500 mm forward of it. Comparing pivot pin lift capacities across models (apples to apples) Kubota seems to consistently have one, of if not the lowest, lift capacities, which is dissapointing.

My boys are 3.5 and 1, so having them throw the wood in now might be a tall order, but yes, just loading the wood by hand and then moving and stacking the pallets with the tractor would still be a significant time savings.

My initial thought on a grapple purchase was to primarily use it for:

1) loading firewood (maybe not such a great idea, now), and

2) digging out and moving rocks for retaining walls. I've read forks can work well for popping rocks, and then an old car hood for transport and straps off of bucket hooks, while taking a little longer, might not be a bad way to move and place them.

 

[RSR]

you said something about calculating the weight of the rock to give you an idea of loader lift capacity.
Don't forget to add the grapple weight into your figures. A heavy grapple will reduce loader lift capacity.

I used a 35 hp tractor for years and have done most anything I needed to do.
No grapple, only a thumb

Since moving to the farm last year. I purchased the mx5100. Though I hardly use it. Most of the time is still spent on the 35 hp yanmar

Is the thumb a commercially available option (I've never seen one) or was it something you fabricated? It is an interesting idea.

 

[Rock Crawler]

Jeff, can you please provide the proof to back up this asinine statement. 100% of first time users damage their tractors in 5 years?? Bull. Or maybe you just speak from your own experience?

Jeff has a very skewed, very wrong, "I am holier-than-thou" complex going on. Most of us now know and understand his issues, and we completely discount anything he says. The fear is that he will get into the heads of the newer visitors here on the forum and he stands chance to poison them with his gibberish.

My guess in this particular verbal regurgitation of his is because he completely screwed up his first equipment and he took it to a dealer and tried to (maybe successfully? ) con the dealership and manufacturer into warranty repairing a machine that was not defective at all, but was damaged by operator misuse, abuse or idiocies.

Since he claims 100% he is obviously including himself in his projection, and what he's doing is suggesting that the mistakes that he experienced will absolutely be repeated by every other equipment owner or operator.

Do you recall watching the Peanuts and Charlie Brown or Lucy would get a phone call? The voice on the phone would not be words, it would instead be some generic representative sound for the voice on the other end. When this Jeff fellow posts, you may well be best served if in your head you replace his text with a similar generic representative sound, much like they did in the cartoon.

 

[RSR]

Jeff has a very skewed, very wrong, "I am holier-than-thou" complex going on. Most of us now know and understand his issues, and we completely discount anything he says. The fear is that he will get into the heads of the newer visitors here on the forum and he stands chance to poison them with his gibberish.

My guess in this particular verbal regurgitation of his is because he completely screwed up his first equipment and he took it to a dealer and tried to (maybe successfully? ) con the dealership and manufacturer into warranty repairing a machine that was not defective at all, but was damaged by operator misuse, abuse or idiocies.

Since he claims 100% he is obviously including himself in his projection, and what he's doing is suggesting that the mistakes that he experienced will absolutely be repeated by every other equipment owner or operator.

Do you recall watching the Peanuts and Charlie Brown or Lucy would get a phone call? The voice on the phone would not be words, it would instead be some generic representative sound for the voice on the other end. When this Jeff fellow posts, you may well be best served if in your head you replace his text with a similar generic representative sound, much like they did in the cartoon.

I understand there are a variety of differing opinions on here, which is one of the things that makes this site so useful.

I have strong opinions about paying cash versus financing. Others see things differently. I welcome those different opinions as it helps me to see things from a different perspective.

Slandering someone with a different take on life, or tractors, helps no one. I don't think it's beyond human capacity to disagree with someone while maintaining civility.

I recognize the hyperbole that 100% of all new users have problems in the first 5 years requiring dealer involvement. However, I also recognize the sentiment being expressed that as a new naive tractor user, I am at much greater risk of doing something stupid out of ignorance that may lead to significant damage to the tractor (and hopefully only the tractor). I think this is a point worth sharing, that I had not considered.

 

[Jchonline]

Lets get back to the OPs questions and help him spend some money!

1. Snow removal - Always takes HP to drive the PTO versions...hydraulic are Skid steer only. So you do need to be careful about having appropriate PTO HP, or you just need a smaller width blower to drive with the PTO. I would not buy unless I knew a particular HP and blower combination worked well..they are very expensive.

2. Woods maintenance - you are alot like me. I live on a big rock with trees sticking out of it. However, I have disintegrated granite with some boulders...you have a solid granite garden. If this is the terrain on most of your property I dont think a tractor is going to be stable unless you pick something very specific. You need a super wide wheel base on both front and rear and a low center of gravity. At least if you plan on getting in there with a tractor and grapple. Now you can also look at a skidding winch such as Hud-son or Wallenstein or many others. These give you a hundred or so feet of reach beyond the back of the tractor to pull the log out of the woods. You would have to go in, fell and limb and then skid it out. I have a very steep slope on the southern side of my place with lots of rocks and a lodgepole pine forest (super close together). A skidding winch is the answer. You also have a bunch of smaller trees...maybe these can be cut and carried out. It sucks, but sometimes the only way.

3. Wood handling - Watch Outdoors with the Morgans on youtube. Mike uses these metal reinforced water containers to hold firewood. They work great and are light. If I end up needing a bunch of firewood this will be my way of doing it. Trying to grab cut wood with a grapple or a bucket doesnt work well.

4. Landscaping - you will probably get all you need from the edges of your forest I like the idea of something to skid the rocks on. Getting in there with a tractor AND having an extra 1000 lb rock in the FEL with all of those rocks to drive over seems like a bad idea. Maybe a car hood attached to the skidding winch in #2 above!

5. Dealers - If you have already heard bad things about local dealers...just cross them off your list. You think like I do. I would be nervous about LS and TYM because they are so small or do other things with their business...both for service and parts. As long as the price isnt a massive issue I recommend sticking with Kubota or JD because they are good dealers, will have parts, and both make reputable machines. Kioti and the others really far away are just that. Good machines, but too far in my opinion. If this was your 2nd or 3rd tractor maybe.

6. Tractors - Because I would stick with local dealers personally we can talk JD and Kubota. For size Jeff always has good advice here. Get a piece of PVC as long as the width of the rear wheels of a tractor you are considering. Walk around your place and see where you can and cant get through. For me the JD 40 series cab was just too cramped. I demoed it for an hour or so. I liked everything else...especially the rear creeper control. If the cab is fine for you its a great machine. I didn't get in a 30 series cab, but you can check that out if it is an option. On the Kubota...I would not touch the B3350. None of the 9 dealers in my area of CO will even stock them. I have asked and they refuse. Forum reports are from no issues to a tractor that won't start or run at all. My initial thought is a Kubota B2650 cab...maybe a L3650 cab if you dont plan on going in the woods much. The L3560 is a gem. Check out the equivalent JD (2 and 3 series). Be sure the dealer can add wheel spacers to both front and rear and that warranty covers them after. If you add them aftermarket and tip it over, your warranty will not cover it (so I was told by 3 different brand dealers).

7. Tractors if we dont mind distant dealers - I really like the LS 4140 cab. Smooth HST, smooth loader, nice features. Price is right. The issue for me was the steering wheel and chair adjustments. I am 6ft 190...and I had to reach to grab the wheel. If I moved the seat closer, my foot was cramped on the HST pedals. Sometimes it is these things that make the difference. In fact at some point I may get another machine for snow removal only...and it could be a LS. Just not something I am going to use for 8 hours a day. I did not care for the TYM at all. Cab was nice and roomy, but the HST and FEL hydraulics were jerky. After using the Kubota and LS it was an easy decision. Kioti was very high on my list...and I have seen nothing but good things. The issue for me was the dealer (too small and also sold cars) and that the price was the same as the Kubota. After driving both, for me the Kubota was the clear winner. Again just for me. Yanmar I have heard of folks having real issues getting parts..but it is a machine all built by the same company...and that is always a good thing. Branson - well built but they were bought out by TYM. Who knows what happens to them in the future.

Just some of my thoughts, take what you will and throw the rest away! Hope some of it helps. Best of Luck!

 

[RSR]

Lets get back to the OPs questions and help him spend some money!

1. Snow removal - Always takes HP to drive the PTO versions...hydraulic are Skid steer only. So you do need to be careful about having appropriate PTO HP, or you just need a smaller width blower to drive with the PTO. I would not buy unless I knew a particular HP and blower combination worked well..they are very expensive.

2. Woods maintenance - you are alot like me. I live on a big rock with trees sticking out of it. However, I have disintegrated granite with some boulders...you have a solid granite garden. If this is the terrain on most of your property I dont think a tractor is going to be stable unless you pick something very specific. You need a super wide wheel base on both front and rear and a low center of gravity. At least if you plan on getting in there with a tractor and grapple. Now you can also look at a skidding winch such as Hud-son or Wallenstein or many others. These give you a hundred or so feet of reach beyond the back of the tractor to pull the log out of the woods. You would have to go in, fell and limb and then skid it out. I have a very steep slope on the southern side of my place with lots of rocks and a lodgepole pine forest (super close together). A skidding winch is the answer. You also have a bunch of smaller trees...maybe these can be cut and carried out. It sucks, but sometimes the only way.

3. Wood handling - Watch Outdoors with the Morgans on youtube. Mike uses these metal reinforced water containers to hold firewood. They work great and are light. If I end up needing a bunch of firewood this will be my way of doing it. Trying to grab cut wood with a grapple or a bucket doesnt work well.

4. Landscaping - you will probably get all you need from the edges of your forest I like the idea of something to skid the rocks on. Getting in there with a tractor AND having an extra 1000 lb rock in the FEL with all of those rocks to drive over seems like a bad idea. Maybe a car hood attached to the skidding winch in #2 above!

5. Dealers - If you have already heard bad things about local dealers...just cross them off your list. You think like I do. I would be nervous about LS and TYM because they are so small or do other things with their business...both for service and parts. As long as the price isnt a massive issue I recommend sticking with Kubota or JD because they are good dealers, will have parts, and both make reputable machines. Kioti and the others really far away are just that. Good machines, but too far in my opinion. If this was your 2nd or 3rd tractor maybe.

6. Tractors - Because I would stick with local dealers personally we can talk JD and Kubota. For size Jeff always has good advice here. Get a piece of PVC as long as the width of the rear wheels of a tractor you are considering. Walk around your place and see where you can and cant get through. For me the JD 40 series cab was just too cramped. I demoed it for an hour or so. I liked everything else...especially the rear creeper control. If the cab is fine for you its a great machine. I didn't get in a 30 series cab, but you can check that out if it is an option. On the Kubota...I would not touch the B3350. None of the 9 dealers in my area of CO will even stock them. I have asked and they refuse. Forum reports are from no issues to a tractor that won't start or run at all. My initial thought is a Kubota B2650 cab...maybe a L3650 cab if you dont plan on going in the woods much. The L3560 is a gem. Check out the equivalent JD (2 and 3 series). Be sure the dealer can add wheel spacers to both front and rear and that warranty covers them after. If you add them aftermarket and tip it over, your warranty will not cover it (so I was told by 3 different brand dealers).

7. Tractors if we dont mind distant dealers - I really like the LS 4140 cab. Smooth HST, smooth loader, nice features. Price is right. The issue for me was the steering wheel and chair adjustments. I am 6ft 190...and I had to reach to grab the wheel. If I moved the seat closer, my foot was cramped on the HST pedals. Sometimes it is these things that make the difference. In fact at some point I may get another machine for snow removal only...and it could be a LS. Just not something I am going to use for 8 hours a day. I did not care for the TYM at all. Cab was nice and roomy, but the HST and FEL hydraulics were jerky. After using the Kubota and LS it was an easy decision. Kioti was very high on my list...and I have seen nothing but good things. The issue for me was the dealer (too small and also sold cars) and that the price was the same as the Kubota. After driving both, for me the Kubota was the clear winner. Again just for me. Yanmar I have heard of folks having real issues getting parts..but it is a machine all built by the same company...and that is always a good thing. Branson - well built but they were bought out by TYM. Who knows what happens to them in the future.

Just some of my thoughts, take what you will and throw the rest away! Hope some of it helps. Best of Luck!

Thanks for the well thought out response.

A skidding winch is probably going to be a not-to-distant purchase following the tractor, as it's realistically the only way I can see to access a lot of the land. I will be able to cut out a bunch of small stuff to make main thoroughfares for the tractor, but I think I will basically be constrained to staying on those paths, as everywhere else is so rocky and uneven.

I'm still not sure on how much hp I really need for a PTO driven rear blower. Maybe I need to post specifically in the snow removal section? I know the rule of thumb is 5 Hp per foot width, but that doesn't really tell me how much quicker I can expect to move snow versus my current Ariens 28 deluxe walk behind.

From multiple responses here it sounds like maybe I should rethink the idea of getting a grapple. I initially thought I'd use it for harvesting rocks, building retaining walls, and loading firewood into bins, but prevailing opinions seem to be that the grapple probably won't work for loading firewood into bins, and I can probably transport rocks easier with a sled, while using straps off the loader to place them on a wall. As you mentioned, skidding rocks on a hood isn't a bad idea either.

I hesitate at buying a JD or Kubota solely because of the lesser "value" due to the higher price. However, again, prevailing opinion seems to be that there are other considerations that might likely outweigh that hangup. In JD and Kubota, I'm guessing I would probably be looking at either JD 3039R, or L3560, both with a cab. Really, as I get closer to the purchase (January or so time frame, I'm hoping) I think I just need to get out and sit on a bunch of them as well to also factor in ergonomics.

 

[ericm979]

You can always buy the grapple later if you decide you need it. The L3560 HST has a fairly low PTO power for 37 engine hp which might be a concern for power hungry PTO operations.

 

[mred2]

Setting on them and test drive is one of the more important things to do. If it doesn't fit your backside, it is not as much fun to work with.

 

[jeff9366]

You can always buy the grapple later if you decide you need it. The L3560 HST has a fairly low PTO power for 37 engine hp which might be a concern for power hungry PTO operations.

28 - PTO - horsepower with HST+ transmission.

 

[Jchonline]

Thanks for the well thought out response.

A skidding winch is probably going to be a not-to-distant purchase following the tractor, as it's realistically the only way I can see to access a lot of the land. I will be able to cut out a bunch of small stuff to make main thoroughfares for the tractor, but I think I will basically be constrained to staying on those paths, as everywhere else is so rocky and uneven.

I'm still not sure on how much hp I really need for a PTO driven rear blower. Maybe I need to post specifically in the snow removal section? I know the rule of thumb is 5 Hp per foot width, but that doesn't really tell me how much quicker I can expect to move snow versus my current Ariens 28 deluxe walk behind.

From multiple responses here it sounds like maybe I should rethink the idea of getting a grapple. I initially thought I'd use it for harvesting rocks, building retaining walls, and loading firewood into bins, but prevailing opinions seem to be that the grapple probably won't work for loading firewood into bins, and I can probably transport rocks easier with a sled, while using straps off the loader to place them on a wall. As you mentioned, skidding rocks on a hood isn't a bad idea either.

I hesitate at buying a JD or Kubota solely because of the lesser "value" due to the higher price. However, again, prevailing opinion seems to be that there are other considerations that might likely outweigh that hangup. In JD and Kubota, I'm guessing I would probably be looking at either JD 3039R, or L3560, both with a cab. Really, as I get closer to the purchase (January or so time frame, I'm hoping) I think I just need to get out and sit on a bunch of them as well to also factor in ergonomics.

On the snow blower...I have seen 70HP tractors bog down and have to take it in passes if the snow is too deep. I don't have one so am not much help in this regard. I do recommend getting on the snow removal forum for a more experienced answer.

The grapple is such as useful tool..I dont want to discourage you. It is also an expensive investment. I would recommend getting the 3rd function at a minimum installed with purchase. That said it just doesn't sound like you will be able to get the tractor into the spots where you can grab a bunch of these rocks. Remember you can also easily lift rocks with pallet forks. I am most nervous about a big rock on the FEL and uneven terrain in your case. Just seems better to pull the rock behind the tractor.

Regarding the tractor brand...get out and demo them all. Spend an hour or so operating everything in each machine. FEL, 4wd, diff lock, Loader + bucket dumps, turning radius, check underside for hoses/vulnerabilities and exposure, 3 pt system and ease of access/adjustment, AC and Heater, windshield wipers (ie does it fog up easily). How easy it reverses and transitions between forward and reverse (for your rear blower). Windows and easy of manipulation (how open, close) for winter, light placement and ease of adding/changing light fixtures...often you are going to be adding rear lights if you have a blower.

Make a list of the above, go in terrible weather and fire these tractors up in with the Heater. Drive them around! Operate the FEL, operate the transmission. Get a good feel for what it will be like doing your tasks. I went with my father to look at cab tractors in 105 degree TX heat...and the ACs performed very differently in different brands. Dont be afraid to spend a few hours in a tractor on the lot. It is a big investment, and so much harder to decide than an automobile.

 

[cathy liebchen]

"I hesitate at buying a JD or kubota solely because of the lesser "value" due to the higher price". This is one of the biggest fallacies people have about buying the top brands. Lowest price rarely is a true measure of overall value, often it is the opposite. The extra cost to buy the better engineered and better built unit, with better dealer support, is just a "sunk cost" or just an invested amount in the unit. You recover more than the increased price differential on any resale. The cheaper off brand tractors depreciate so dramatically on a resale, and are harder to sell.

If you get a cab unit, make sure it has great air conditioning, they tend to be sweat boxes

 

[4570Man]

On the snow blower...I have seen 70HP tractors bog down and have to take it in passes if the snow is too deep. I don't have one so am not much help in this regard. I do recommend getting on the snow removal forum for a more experienced answer.

The grapple is such as useful tool..I dont want to discourage you. It is also an expensive investment. I would recommend getting the 3rd function at a minimum installed with purchase. That said it just doesn't sound like you will be able to get the tractor into the spots where you can grab a bunch of these rocks. Remember you can also easily lift rocks with pallet forks. I am most nervous about a big rock on the FEL and uneven terrain in your case. Just seems better to pull the rock behind the tractor.

Regarding the tractor brand...get out and demo them all. Spend an hour or so operating everything in each machine. FEL, 4wd, diff lock, Loader + bucket dumps, turning radius, check underside for hoses/vulnerabilities and exposure, 3 pt system and ease of access/adjustment, AC and Heater, windshield wipers (ie does it fog up easily). How easy it reverses and transitions between forward and reverse (for your rear blower). Windows and easy of manipulation (how open, close) for winter, light placement and ease of adding/changing light fixtures...often you are going to be adding rear lights if you have a blower.

Make a list of the above, go in terrible weather and fire these tractors up in with the Heater. Drive them around! Operate the FEL, operate the transmission. Get a good feel for what it will be like doing your tasks. I went with my father to look at cab tractors in 105 degree TX heat...and the ACs performed very differently in different brands. Dont be afraid to spend a few hours in a tractor on the lot. It is a big investment, and so much harder to decide than an automobile.

I feel fairly confident you’ll be adequately warm in any heated cab. Heat is “cheap”. My Kubota skid steer has enough heater to stay toasty warm with the windows open. The air conditioning is the more likely to be lacking.

 

[RSR]

"I hesitate at buying a JD or kubota solely because of the lesser "value" due to the higher price". This is one of the biggest fallacies people have about buying the top brands. Lowest price rarely is a true measure of overall value, often it is the opposite. The extra cost to buy the better engineered and better built unit, with better dealer support, is just a "sunk cost" or just an invested amount in the unit. You recover more than the increased price differential on any resale. The cheaper off brand tractors depreciate so dramatically on a resale, and are harder to sell.

If you get a cab unit, make sure it has great air conditioning, they tend to be sweat boxes

What if you don't ever plan to resell it?

There seems to be a common consensus on the forum here that there are many brands that offer just as well built and engineered tractors as JD and Kubota at a much more aggressive price point.

 

[Sbalak]

I've got a 2008 Kubota B3030 open station with loader and 72" deck that had served me well since I bought it used in 2013. I'm also considering a similar move from the B3030 to a Kioti Cab CK3510se or DK4210se. There's a good Kioti dealer about an hour from me that I visited this past weekend. I have to say that I was very impressed with both the CK and DK. The cabs were very nice with fit and finish you would expect. Very low noise and the A/C worked well. It was about 50F and I could make it uncomfortably hot and cold. Their CK was sold so I couldn't drive it, but I started it up to get a sense for noise and FEL performance. I played with their DK4710se and it was impressive. Had nice power and easy to drive. Going to look at a Kubota L4060 soon to see if it's worth the extra $7k. Here's some pics of the DK. Sorry doing this on my phone and it looks like the pics didn't rotate correctly. My primary motivation aside from the cab is more lifting capacity on the FEL. I just need more than the B3030 has to give.

 

[Jchonline]

What if you don't ever plan to resell it?

There seems to be a common consensus on the forum here that there are many brands that offer just as well built and engineered tractors as JD and Kubota at a much more aggressive price point.

Many of us don't plan on selling, but it happens for various reasons. These are expensive investments, and each person has to make their own informed decision. Resale value is something we should all at least consider...but it doesn't have to be the sole criteria in deciding for JD or Kubota over the others.

 

[4570Man]

What if you don't ever plan to resell it?

There seems to be a common consensus on the forum here that there are many brands that offer just as well built and engineered tractors as JD and Kubota at a much more aggressive price point.

Kioti is the best of the “knockoffs” IMO. I’ve never had any experience with TYM, RK, and some others, but LS and Mahindra definitely have a less degree of fit and finish.

 

[Rock Crawler]

Kioti is the best of the “knockoffs” IMO. I’ve never had any experience with TYM, RK, and some others, but LS and Mahindra definitely have a less degree of fit and finish.

I was really wanting to get a Ford blue LS tractor. I drove to the nearest dealer, talked a bit, walked out to look something similar to a B2650 Kubota and test drove it with a 2 speed HST and thought that it was pretty good.... Then we opened the hood to look at the layout, closed the hood and the LS chrome badge busted off of the hood and hit the ground.

That's what it took. I left, never to return.

Kioti was the only other beans that stayed in the fight against Kubota for me. What swayed me was that the Kubota dealer is 35 miles away and the Kioti dealers were around 80 miles away. I payed around 4 Grand more, but my dealership is close and they have proven to be extremely helpful.

I'm happy with my purchase of a dealer.

 

[paulfun9]

"I hesitate at buying a JD or kubota solely because of the lesser "value" due to the higher price". This is one of the biggest fallacies people have about buying the top brands. Lowest price rarely is a true measure of overall value, often it is the opposite. The extra cost to buy the better engineered and better built unit, with better dealer support, is just a "sunk cost" or just an invested amount in the unit. You recover more than the increased price differential on any resale. The cheaper off brand tractors depreciate so dramatically on a resale, and are harder to sell.

If you get a cab unit, make sure it has great air conditioning, they tend to be sweat boxes

News to me!

You would have a hard time convincing me of the getting more for my money on everything except maybe the dealer support or convenience of having more dealers to choose from.
I am also not impressed with resale when the percentages are figured out based on purchase price compared to actual cash in pocket.