Flail Mower Let's talk flail mowers

[def38]

VICTORY TRACTOR IMPLEMENTS | BCRL-65A Chinese junk or decent for mowing ditches/banks? This mower has got me very intrigued, especially at that price.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4865289

I don't have a Victory but I do have a Titan. I have seen the Victory up close and personal. Looks the same as the Titan except for the paint job. My Titan is a monster and cuts well behind my M-F 231S. No belt issues and I have only stalled the mower once when I ran into some fence wire on the ground. I have been to China many times and observed first hand their manufacturing techniques. My only concern for a Chinese flail mower would be the welds. My inspection indicates that the Titan and Victory are welded properly with good penetration and no slag. The Chinese machines seem to be a close copy of the popular brands. Bearings, fasteners and other wear items are standard off the shelf stuff available most anywhere. My 6 foot Titan weigh the same as popular non-Chinese brands, about 600lbs. I like the service and free shipping offered by Titan.

Flail Mowers - 3 Point Attachments

 

[Jack Yuan]

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4865289

I don't have a Victory but I do have a Titan. I have seen the Victory up close and personal. Looks the same as the Titan except for the paint job. My Titan is a monster and cuts well behind my M-F 231S. No belt issues and I have only stalled the mower once when I ran into some fence wire on the ground. I have been to China many times and observed first hand their manufacturing techniques. My only concern for a Chinese flail mower would be the welds. My inspection indicates that the Titan and Victory are welded properly with good penetration and no slag. The Chinese machines seem to be a close copy of the popular brands. Bearings, fasteners and other wear items are standard off the shelf stuff available most anywhere. My 6 foot Titan weigh the same as popular non-Chinese brands, about 600lbs. I like the service and free shipping offered by Titan.

Flail Mowers - 3 Point Attachments

This industry in China is growing very fast in last 8 years. More and more new manufacturers step in. The competition is very fierce. Consider the USD currency exchange rate and the price increasing of material cost in China. I see the big change is happening in this industry. Many small weak manufacturers will be gone, the strong manufacturers are getting stronger.

The winner will only be the one who has better management, better technology, and long-term thinking.

 

[tn60a]

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4865289

I don't have a Victory but I do have a Titan. I have seen the Victory up close and personal. Looks the same as the Titan except for the paint job. My Titan is a monster and cuts well behind my M-F 231S. No belt issues and I have only stalled the mower once when I ran into some fence wire on the ground. I have been to China many times and observed first hand their manufacturing techniques. My only concern for a Chinese flail mower would be the welds. My inspection indicates that the Titan and Victory are welded properly with good penetration and no slag. The Chinese machines seem to be a close copy of the popular brands. Bearings, fasteners and other wear items are standard off the shelf stuff available most anywhere. My 6 foot Titan weigh the same as popular non-Chinese brands, about 600lbs. I like the service and free shipping offered by Titan.

Flail Mowers - 3 Point Attachments

Thank you for the reply, I think as soon as it gets in stock im going to get the bigger one of those verge flails from victory to do field edges, ditches and pond banks. I dont see a titan one that is a verge.

 

[whirly]

Thank you for the reply, I think as soon as it gets in stock im going to get the bigger one of those verge flails from victory to do field edges, ditches and pond banks. I dont see a titan one that is a verge.

You can also look at the Value Leader AGL 165. I have one I bought direct from China and it's a beast.

 

[N2DFire]

Thank you for the reply, I think as soon as it gets in stock im going to get the bigger one of those verge flails from victory to do field edges, ditches and pond banks. I dont see a titan one that is a verge.

In March of this year I contacted Titan about adding the Verge style mowers to their line-up.

I was answered by a Mr. Cabell Brown, Director of New Product Development.
He stated:

Thanks for sending in your product idea. I do think this is a line we might explore. We started with the regular flail mowers to see what kind of demand was out there, but I think we can take that next step and look at some of those hydraulic offset flails. I'll pass this along to one of my engineers to look at and if we make some progress here in the near future I'll let you know.

Maybe if more people inquire, they will be more inclined to add them.

I used the New Product Request Page Product Requests or you could e-mail Mr. Brown directly - Cabell Brown cabell@titanattachments.com

You can also look at the Value Leader AGL 165. I have one I bought direct from China and it's a beast.

I'm glad you posted this. I hear good things from some here about the Victory mowers, but in trying to compare them to the Value Leader (Betstco) - for the same size model it appears the Value Leader had thinker metal and overall is a slightly heavier unit. Now I understand that thinner metal of better quality it still stronger than thicker cheap metal, but it does make things harder to compare from just specs & pictures.

The 165 is just a touch too much for my tractor (based on the recommended tractor weight) so I've been comparing the Victory BCRL-57A to the Value Leader AGL145 - both 57" cut and almost identical specs except the Victory is 4 & 6 mm sheet metal & 684 lbs vs the Value Leaders 1/4" sheet metal and 751 lbs.

The Victory claims to use Forged Hammers. I can find no specific info at the moment on the Value Leader, but I thought I read somewhere they used cast hammers.

 

[DavesTractor]

Major disappointment if the Minimax is actually made in China. I've had my eye on the Mini because of the lighter weight and my intentions of mowing only pasture grass with it. The light weight was an advantage to me on my hilly terrain. Now I need to find out for sure because I don't want to pay the premium price for one made in China. Thanks for the heads up if it is true, Iberian.

I wasn't so sure this was true, so I called Vrisimo this morning, and it is true, sort of. They made a bunch of mini-max right here in California until they felt they had the design correct. Then they contracted with a Chinese manufacturing facility to make most of the mower to their specs. They did not just find an import mower and put a label on it. So after the USA made units were sold, we started getting imports. Currently now they are going to version 2.0 with a little different a-frame and a few other minor mods. These are being built in the USA, but once they have the product nailed and have them out in the field and get feedback and whatnot, they will again have the mini-max manufactured in China. The Mighty-Max and above are California built. The problem they have of course, is that it costs a ton to just open your doors in California, let alone be an actual manufacturer.

We found the mini to be a good mower, but we had some issues with the A-frame cracking if the operator left the mower on his tractor all the time. One fellow does a lot of mowing, and all year he keeps his mower on. When he drives out across the pasture to feed cows, the mower is on. When he uses the loader to move manure, the mower is on. It actually puts stress on the a-frame having that thing bouncing around back there while doing other work. Anyway, the new mini will have a new A-frame.

We sell mostly Mighty-Max, Super Series and the Orchard models. They really are fantastic, but not needed for the budget minded hobby farmer.

 

[def38]

This industry in China is growing very fast in last 8 years. More and more new manufacturers step in. The competition is very fierce. Consider the USD currency exchange rate and the price increasing of material cost in China. I see the big change is happening in this industry. Many small weak manufacturers will be gone, the strong manufacturers are getting stronger.

The winner will only be the one who has better management, better technology, and long-term thinking.

Jack, India is way ahead of China in manufacturing techniques as well as engineering and quality. India's cars and similar products are right up there with the rest of the world.

 

[Jack Yuan]

Jack, India is way ahead of China in manufacturing techniques as well as engineering and quality. India's cars and similar products are right up there with the rest of the world.

Hi, I used to check out the possibility to set up factory in India 2 years ago, after I talked with some India officer from tractor implement manufacturer(they produce rotary tiller), then I give up this idea. The basic industry supply chain in India is still much weaker than China. I saw many of Chinese industry move to southeast Asian these years, most of them are the industry which labor cost take high percent of product cost, like toy, cloth, etc. For mechanical industry, not too many of Chinese manufacturers move to there this moment, because this industry need powerful supply chain, and labor cost take small percent of whole product cost.

I always keep my eye in southeast Asian, maybe I will shift there in future, but not now obviously.

The post above you which talked about Minimax, it is just a small sample Chinese industry is still much ahead over India. I can make a long name list that US products made in China but promote as made in US, the end-user just don't know. These years, India industry is growing fast, we are watching them.

 

[Jack Yuan]

I wasn't so sure this was true, so I called Vrisimo this morning, and it is true, sort of. They made a bunch of mini-max right here in California until they felt they had the design correct. Then they contracted with a Chinese manufacturing facility to make most of the mower to their specs. They did not just find an import mower and put a label on it. So after the USA made units were sold, we started getting imports. Currently now they are going to version 2.0 with a little different a-frame and a few other minor mods. These are being built in the USA, but once they have the product nailed and have them out in the field and get feedback and whatnot, they will again have the mini-max manufactured in China. The Mighty-Max and above are California built. The problem they have of course, is that it costs a ton to just open your doors in California, let alone be an actual manufacturer.

We found the mini to be a good mower, but we had some issues with the A-frame cracking if the operator left the mower on his tractor all the time. One fellow does a lot of mowing, and all year he keeps his mower on. When he drives out across the pasture to feed cows, the mower is on. When he uses the loader to move manure, the mower is on. It actually puts stress on the a-frame having that thing bouncing around back there while doing other work. Anyway, the new mini will have a new A-frame.

We sell mostly Mighty-Max, Super Series and the Orchard models. They really are fantastic, but not needed for the budget minded hobby farmer.

Glad to know this information about Minimax. Think about the labor cost in California, so high. This is trend for US manufacturers, produce some parts in China, then assemble and test in US, even some of them just shift all the complete work in China. Different manufacturer has different way to produce. All the purpose is profit, continuous profit and stable quality.

I have to say, the cost(both labor cost and material cost) in China is also going high, so the trend here in China is that more mechanization, like robot welding, robot assembly line. I like this, robot always make less mistake and make better quality than human, and much cheaper on labor cost.

 

[Jack Yuan]

I wasn't so sure this was true, so I called Vrisimo this morning, and it is true, sort of. They made a bunch of mini-max right here in California until they felt they had the design correct. Then they contracted with a Chinese manufacturing facility to make most of the mower to their specs. They did not just find an import mower and put a label on it. So after the USA made units were sold, we started getting imports. Currently now they are going to version 2.0 with a little different a-frame and a few other minor mods. These are being built in the USA, but once they have the product nailed and have them out in the field and get feedback and whatnot, they will again have the mini-max manufactured in China. The Mighty-Max and above are California built. The problem they have of course, is that it costs a ton to just open your doors in California, let alone be an actual manufacturer.

We found the mini to be a good mower, but we had some issues with the A-frame cracking if the operator left the mower on his tractor all the time. One fellow does a lot of mowing, and all year he keeps his mower on. When he drives out across the pasture to feed cows, the mower is on. When he uses the loader to move manure, the mower is on. It actually puts stress on the a-frame having that thing bouncing around back there while doing other work. Anyway, the new mini will have a new A-frame.

We sell mostly Mighty-Max, Super Series and the Orchard models. They really are fantastic, but not needed for the budget minded hobby farmer.

Do you mean "A-frame" the square tube of 3 point hitch? Minimax weld a flat plate on the mower housing first, then weld the vertical frame on this flat plate, it protect the bent section of mower housing, it is much stronger than before.

 

[DoubleDeere]

I wasn't so sure this was true, so I called Vrisimo this morning, and it is true, sort of. They made a bunch of mini-max right here in California until they felt they had the design correct. Then they contracted with a Chinese manufacturing facility to make most of the mower to their specs. They did not just find an import mower and put a label on it. So after the USA made units were sold, we started getting imports. Currently now they are going to version 2.0 with a little different a-frame and a few other minor mods. These are being built in the USA, but once they have the product nailed and have them out in the field and get feedback and whatnot, they will again have the mini-max manufactured in China. The Mighty-Max and above are California built. The problem they have of course, is that it costs a ton to just open your doors in California, let alone be an actual manufacturer.

We found the mini to be a good mower, but we had some issues with the A-frame cracking if the operator left the mower on his tractor all the time. One fellow does a lot of mowing, and all year he keeps his mower on. When he drives out across the pasture to feed cows, the mower is on. When he uses the loader to move manure, the mower is on. It actually puts stress on the a-frame having that thing bouncing around back there while doing other work. Anyway, the new mini will have a new A-frame.

We sell mostly Mighty-Max, Super Series and the Orchard models. They really are fantastic, but not needed for the budget minded hobby farmer.

Wonder if it was a design flaw or Chinese steel problem causing the A-frames to crack. There is a difference between American and Chinese steels. What worked for Valley Tool in their own manufacturing might not work under Chinese manufacturing. The difference in the Quality of steel and welding can either make it or break it.

 

[JimCan]

I finally flagged down one of the crews that do our county roads. They switched from rotary to flail for the typical safety reasons. He said the rotary was faster a 5mph vs. 2mph for flail but the rotary made a lot of clumps. I was interested in the PTO speed; they use 2,000rpm engine speed. I didn't pay attention to the brand (yellow) but the tractors are big-azz JDs. (A/C, tinted cab, radio ... still, I don't think I could do 2mph x 8hrs a day)

Jim

 

[RoyJackson]

I was interested in the PTO speed; they use 2,000rpm engine speed. I didn't pay attention to the brand (yellow) but the tractors are big-azz JDs. (A/C, tinted cab, radio ... still, I don't think I could do 2mph x 8hrs a day)

Jim

The Engine RPM /PTO RPM ratio will differ by tractor. Larger engines may be slower in RPM then most compacts.
So this ratio is more an apples to oranges comparison then an apples to apple...

 

[Ozarks Landowner]

Haven't been on here in a while and am trying to get caught up.
I was reading and noticed a few people saying they ran their blades down to the dirt to create a seed bed. I done the same thing as a test area a few weeks ago and I think it is going to turn out really well.
Just as a reminder I have a unknown brand pull type with no roller that I control mowing height by the tongue attached to my 3-point lift. I made my own hangers and used heavy duty side slicers. It was recommended here not to make my own hangers but it has worked out very well. I have had two come off.
One when I hit a armadillo mound and once on a very hard tree limb that was hidden by tall grass.
I have even used mine to grind down low cut stumps taking them down to the dirt by taking just a bit off then backing up and lowering down to skim it again.
After running the blades skimming the dirt and cutting stumps I mowed my two acre field by the house and it still cut the 3' Sericia Lespedeza, Buck Brush, Passion Fruit vines and grass just fine.

 

[DavesTractor]

Wonder if it was a design flaw or Chinese steel problem causing the A-frames to crack. There is a difference between American and Chinese steels. What worked for Valley Tool in their own manufacturing might not work under Chinese manufacturing. The difference in the Quality of steel and welding can either make it or break it.

I think it was design, and part of that was not anticipating how the small mowers are used. Folks will just leave a small flail on the tractor and haul it around while doing non-mowing tasks. That's not done much with a big flail. A big flail will spend most of it's time on the ground mowing. I'm not going to do around the ranch tasks with a 12' mower behind me. I'll mow, and then park it and grab another tractor or take the mower off. Sure it will be in the air between fields and here and there, but it doesn't stay on generally when cleaning barn stalls, when hauling firewood in the bucket and so forth. I think the designers needed to make a more robust a-frame. There are different stresses put on when the mower is being transported than when it is on the ground mowing. The a-frames we saw that cracked were all from guys that leave the mower on pretty much 100% of the time.

 

[houser52]

I had posted several weeks ago about my Caroni TM1900 belts. The original belts lasted only 4 hours of mowing clean, lawn fescue type grass about knee high and I had replaced them with NAPA belts. Since then I have mowed the same 8"-10" grass a couple times, about 6 more hours. Checked the belts yesterday and one of the belts had a wide crack across the inside edge.( All mowing was done at 3-4 mph. No faster) The other two looked okay. I pulled off all three of those NAPA belts and installed 3 new green Gates Kevlar belts.

While I had the belt cover off I checked to see if the pulleys were aligned, using a straight edge, with each other and they looked okay. I also cleaned the pulleys with solvent to remove any belt dust. With the belts and blades removed, I could easily spin the rotor by hand and it would continue to turn by it's own weight without any binding. After installing the Kevlar belts I engaged the PTO, let the mower run about 5 minutes and video'd the pulleys/belts while spinning. Nothing seemed to be out of alignment. One thing I did notice was that the pulleys and belts were very warm even though the mower was stationary, lifted off the ground, no blades attached and the PTO speed about 500 rpm.

Caroni flail pulley - YouTube

After reading about several guys using duckfoot blades ( Flailmaster # DFM-2042 ) with good results, I ordered a full set to try since I'm mowing grass/weeds with it and not bushes or rocks. I also ordered shorter SAE bolts for attaching the clevises.

I had contacted Agrisupply about the belts and was promptly sent replacements which I'll save for spares. Gene with customer service wants me to be happy with the mower and said if I wasn't that I could ship it back for a full refund.

The duckfoot blades should be here today. Hopefully I'll be mowing with them tomorrow along with the new Kevlar belts. I really want the flail mower to work out because the cut looks really good, it's easier to maneuver than a brush hog and I like the 6' wide cut but if it continues to trash belts I'll have to rethink the whole flail thing.

 

[leonz]

Hello houser52,

Do not give up, the Kevlar belts will be more resistant to shock loading which is what you are dealing with.
What is your mowing height now and how tall is the grass/brush?
Are you running the mower at 540 RPM with the engine speed set for the 540 RPM PTO speed? You need to maintain a 2,200 RPM flail mower rotor speed to have a high blade tip speed.

 

[houser52]

Hello houser52,

Do not give up, the Kevlar belts will be more resistant to shock loading which is what you are dealing with.
What is your mowing height now and how tall is the grass/brush? Are you running the mower at 540 RPM with the engine speed set for the 540 RPM PTO speed?

Thanks Leon
As I mentioned earlier, the dry clean lawn fescue type grass is less than knee high, 8"-10". PTO speed at 540 or a hair less. Mowing speed 3-4 mph. ( My fuel usage has almost doubled compared to the brush hog or finish mower)

This is what I'm mowing

 

[powerscol]

I had posted several weeks ago about my Caroni TM1900 belts. The original belts lasted only 4 hours of mowing clean, lawn fescue type grass about knee high and I had replaced them with NAPA belts. Since then I have mowed the same 8"-10" grass a couple times, about 6 more hours. Checked the belts yesterday and one of the belts had a wide crack across the inside edge.( All mowing was done at 3-4 mph. No faster) The other two looked okay. I pulled off all three of those NAPA belts and installed 3 new green Gates Kevlar belts.

While I had the belt cover off I checked to see if the pulleys were aligned, using a straight edge, with each other and they looked okay. I also cleaned the pulleys with solvent to remove any belt dust. With the belts and blades removed, I could easily spin the rotor by hand and it would continue to turn by it's own weight without any binding. After installing the Kevlar belts I engaged the PTO, let the mower run about 5 minutes and video'd the pulleys/belts while spinning. Nothing seemed to be out of alignment. One thing I did notice was that the pulleys and belts were very warm even though the mower was stationary, lifted off the ground, no blades attached and the PTO speed about 500 rpm.

Caroni flail pulley - YouTube

After reading about several guys using duckfoot blades ( Flailmaster # DFM-2042 ) with good results, I ordered a full set to try since I'm mowing grass/weeds with it and not bushes or rocks. I also ordered shorter SAE bolts for attaching the clevises.

I had contacted Agrisupply about the belts and was promptly sent replacements which I'll save for spares. Gene with customer service wants me to be happy with the mower and said if I wasn't that I could ship it back for a full refund.

The duckfoot blades should be here today. Hopefully I'll be mowing with them tomorrow along with the new Kevlar belts. I really want the flail mower to work out because the cut looks really good, it's easier to maneuver than a brush hog and I like the 6' wide cut but if it continues to trash belts I'll have to rethink the whole flail thing.

Maybe I am seeing things, but in your video there is some movement in the tension pulley - more than I would expect running free, Can this be tightened more, or is it dependent on the spring? If it is dependent on the spring, I would somehow go heavier and then see how the belts align up. Also use a straight edge and make sure the tension pulley (smooth round cylinder) is parallel to everything and not putting different tension on the belts as it would if slightly out of alignment. BTW - are you missing a grease zerk in the end (center) of the tension pulley? There appears to be a hole for one.

 

[leonz]

Thanks Leon
As I mentioned earlier, the dry clean lawn fescue type grass is less than knee high, 8"-10". PTO speed at 540 or a hair less. Mowing speed 3-4 mph. ( My fuel usage has almost doubled compared to the brush hog or finish mower)

This is what I'm mowing

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I can tell you from my personal experience that you need to slow down your travel speed with that height of grass. That is why you lost your first set of belts. The scoop knives should help a lot if you intend to mow only occasionally.

Your pulleys are fine and the flat snubber pulley is in proper tension with the supplied OEM spring as the V belts should not move more than an 1/8-3/16 of an inch with the push of a finger as the snubber is designed to react to loading on the rotor.