Ford 2000 3-cyl gasser losing power with any load on PTO-suggestions needed to fix

[tmac196]

1965 Ford 3 cyl gasser. Problem began a few weeks ago. Runs well with load on drawbar (soil conditioner), but with any load on the PTO (hay rake, hay tedder, bush hog (60 inch), I lose power and the engine begins to burble and run very rough. RPMs drop and if I don't depress the clutch to disengage the PTO the engine appears to be on it's way of shutting down. I can improve the problem minimally and briefly with a tad more choke and a tad more throttle, but rather quickly, in spite of these changes, the problem will recur.

To attempt to solve the problem, I emptied the fuel tank and examined it. Found a long ago metal spout from an old gas can and a broken fuel stopcock filter lying in the bottom of the tank (since removed), but a clean tank. The fuel stopcock was replaced with a new unit and now the tank has a functioning filter. Next, I pulled the cover off the fuel pump and found it completely plugged with debris. The pump filter and gasket were removed and replaced and the pump was cleaned out with suction and cranking the engine a few turns. At the time the fuel pump filter was replaced, the fuel was flowing freely and was clear (no debris) out of the top of the pump with cranking. The sediment bowl was examined and the fuel filter there was washed in clean gasoline and was not plugged with debris. Fuel ran freely from/ through it. As this was the next filter in line and was clean and free of debris, I did not attempt to assess the filter at the carburetor, access to which appears to be a major PIA based on the steel fuel line running between the block and the carb, access to whose fittings would be a big undertaking. Fuel flows freely from the carburetor bowl drain plug.

The engine was given a tune-up. New plugs (correct gap set), points (gap 0.025), rotor and condenser-all from a kit supplied by the local dealer. The distributor cap, a Motorcraft part, was only two years old, in excellent shape and was retained. Finally, I replaced the coil and wire between the coil and the center of the distributor cap as I broke the electrodes off the old wire as I was removing it from the distributor cap. Coil wires to the battery and distributor housing were in excellent shape.

After the tune up, the tractor fired right up and ran smoothly. Good throttle response and power range. I groomed about two acres of horse riding arenas with a soil conditioner and it ran well. As soon as I hooked up the bush hog and engaged the PTO to test the power, the problem recurred.

I am looking for suggestions as to how to solve this problem and where to look next.

 

[Agvg]

Does it run ok with no load on the PTO? Are the govenor function so it keeps constant rpm under different load?
Are the PTO implement you use I working condition? Can it be a faulty gearbox on the brink to lock up?

 

[tmac196]

Does it run ok with no load on the PTO? Are the govenor function so it keeps constant rpm under different load?
Are the PTO implement you use I working condition? Can it be a faulty gearbox on the brink to lock up?

Runs normally with no load on PTO.

PTO powered implements (3 so far) are in excellent condition with normal, healthy gearboxes. All three cause the problem to recur when used.

Governor? I can't say, really. The implement I pull with the drawbar is a soil conditioner. It's merely scratching the surface and smoothing a horse riding arena, so I can't tell you if I have perceived governor inadequacies. It is, I suppose, a possiblity.

 

[Agvg]

When PTO is engaged, does it respond to throttle?

 

[eddie48]

I'm thinking that, if the problem was with the governor, just advancing the throttle would take care of the problem. Since nothing the op does to the engine controls seems to help, I would look toward the pto itself. I'm not familiar with this particular model, but is there a brake on the pto when it is disengaged and could that be coming on at the wrong time? Or, is there a bad bearing in the pto?

 

[Agvg]

Does the PTO tap spin easy?

 

[tmac196]

PTO shaft spins easily and freely and quietly.

Update: Playing with the throttle in neutral reproduced my problems today. It runs rough as I boost the throttle and runs fine at idle. This is the first time I noticed the problem sitting still and the problem may be getting worse because of it.

What about a defective fuel pump? Short of replacing it, is there any way to definitively test the fuel pump function?

 

[Agvg]

Vacuum and pressure gauge should give some useful info.

 

[tmac196]

Here is a video of the tractor running roughly:

Ford 2 running rough with no power - YouTube

 

[tmac196]

Here is a video of the tractor running roughly:

Ford 2 running rough with no power - YouTube

 

[tmac196]

Update: Unable to schedule service on the tractor for "four weeks", the mechanic at the dealership did toss me a bone and suggested that if I opened the throttle at the carb. by hand it would bypass the governor mechanism. I tried it tonight and the engine ran as roughly as it always has suggesting, I presume, that the problem is not the governor. Fuel pump? Carburetor?

 

[Agvg]

When the problem starts, have engine temp any thing to do with it?

 

[tmac196]

When the problem starts, have engine temp any thing to do with it?

No, it does not seem to be temperature related. It will occur with a warm or cold engine.

My next step is to test the fuel pump by pulling the fuel line off of the carburetor and cranking the engine to observe the flow. The problem is I've never seen what a normal fuel flow should be so I'll have to use my own judgement...

The other possibility is a carburetor problem.

Is my logic flawed? Am I missing something else?

 

[Soundguy]

this post is all over.

1, check spark. assuming it's good, lets get to fuel.

try adding just a hair of choke when running.. does that help or hurt?

if some choke helps or fixes the problem, you have a fuel delivery issue. that can be anything from a vacuum leak to dirty carb, to insuficient fuel flow. Holley cards like a few psi positive pressure on fuel flow.

If it runs good static, but has problems when load or rpm changes, that's when you need to look at the advance ( and governor ). a bad advance can run good in one range, and be ragged in other.

 

[tmac196]

this post is all over.

1, check spark. assuming it's good, lets get to fuel.

try adding just a hair of choke when running.. does that help or hurt?

if some choke helps or fixes the problem, you have a fuel delivery issue. that can be anything from a vacuum leak to dirty carb, to insuficient fuel flow. Holley cards like a few psi positive pressure on fuel flow.

If it runs good static, but has problems when load or rpm changes, that's when you need to look at the advance ( and governor ). a bad advance can run good in one range, and be ragged in other.

Choke does not seem to help, see first post, first paragraph.

There is plenty of spark.

I finally finagled the fuel line out of the carb. The final filter screen there looks clean. When I cranked the engine the fuel didn't seem to spurt out so I bit the bullet and replaced the fuel pump which is quite a challenge working between the radiator and the radiator shroud and the block. Tight confines, small wrenches being inched along between the blades of the fan and ever so slight modifications to the routing of the fuel lines as the new CNH fuel pump has a greater "splay" between the fuel line input and output. I want to personally thank whoever invented crowfoot wrenches, they are critical in tightening fuel lines in tight spots.
The generator and gennie bracket had to come off first to get at the fuel pump, too.

I pulled the carburetor off. I will disassemble and attempt to rebuild it, just to make sure there is no debris in one of the orifices. Carb rebuild kits are hard to find for the '65-68 series Ford gassers.

I'll post back with the results.

 

[tmac196]

Well...I wish I had better news. The carb cleaning and rebuild went well. After reinstall, and after replacing the fuel pump (see post above), the problem persists.

It runs ok at idle, but in the mid RPM ranges, it farts and hiccups and burps and now is producing so little power, that it's hard to operate the tractor with no load. The problem is better, but not gone at higher RPM (1800).

Timing? Vacuum advance?, bad dissy?

 

[shaeff]

Bad condenser? Lots of people on this forum have reported several brand new condensers being bad right out of the box. One guy I saw on this forum got three bad ones in a row!

And check the coil again, you want a fat blue/white spark that makes a good snapping sound. Should be the color of lightning.

 

[fritoman4]

Possible bad vacuum advance hose? Pull a vacuum at the dist.with the cap off and see if the breaker plate moves.

 

[tmac196]

Bad condenser? Lots of people on this forum have reported several brand new condensers being bad right out of the box. One guy I saw on this forum got three bad ones in a row!

And check the coil again, you want a fat blue/white spark that makes a good snapping sound. Should be the color of lightning.

Bright blue/white coil spark confirmed. The problem persists with old coil and a new coil.

Problem persists with the old condenser and the new condenser.

 

[tmac196]

Possible bad vacuum advance hose? Pull a vacuum at the dist.with the cap off and see if the breaker plate moves.

Frito- How do you recommend I perform this maneuver? I guess I need you to be more specific.