Ford 2000 3-cyl gasser losing power with any load on PTO-suggestions needed to fix

[tmac196]

If it runs good static, but has problems when load or rpm changes, that's when you need to look at the advance ( and governor ). a bad advance can run good in one range, and be ragged in other.

SG-

This lead sounds promising.

In regards to the governor, if I open the throttle manually, there is a vigorous and proportional governor-induced pull back to close the throttle. The higher the PRM, the greater the "pull back" by the governor mechanism to try to avoid out-of-range engine speeds. I assumed this implied that the governor is working reasonably well. unfortunately, the engine continues run ragged, even with my override of the governor (by holding the throttle open).

An ignition problem? How do you recommend that I check the advance? I have no experience in ignition, but I am not afraid to learn. I have a timing light. The manual suggests that I disconnect the vacuum line to the distributor to accurately measure the timing, correct?

By the way, a big "thank you" to all of you, I appreciate everyone's advice and insight.

 

[tmac196]

One more question:

When the manual suggests "pulling the vacuum line to the distributor" to test the timing, I assume they mean this metal hose (indicated by orange rectangle in picture below), correct?

 

[Soundguy]

someone not on a phone will have to look at the pic it's only about 2" for me.

but yeah, look at your vac advance. I'd forget about the gov for now, especially if it pulled back well when you manually goosed it.

 

[fritoman4]

Yes. That's the one. My guess is that the timing is probably o.k. I was thinking the vacuum line was rubber and had deteriorated. The rubber diaphragm in the diaphragm assembly may be shot. I would use a mity vac to check it.

 

[tmac196]

Update:

Still no solution, unfortunately.

The most recent attempt to fix the problem included several maneuvers: I pulled the air filter line off the carb and ran it briefly without the airbox and filters-no help. Next, I disconnected the vacuum advance line off the dissy-no help. Next, per the shop manual, I set the timing at 650-700 rpm to +2 to-2 degrees without the vacuum advance line connected to the diaphragm on the dissy-not much help. It seemed to run a little less ragged at 1200-1500 rpm, but not much. Finally, I gave up on the timing light and shop manual and played with the timing on the dissy at 1400-1500 rpm setting it by "ear"-not much help either. Ran about the same.

There is vacuum being pulled at the vacuum line, by the way.

With the new timing settings, I put an implement on the tractor (a soil conditioner) and attempted to drag our horse riding arenas (pure drag, no PTO used). The engine seemed to run a bit better at first, but the raggedness came back completely with time and seemed to get worse as the engine warmed up. No amount of choke or throttle adjustment seemed to help the problem. If I depress the clutch, the problem gets slightly better, but even then it persists, emphasizing that it has little to do with the load on the tractor or the PTO as I originally had thought.

To summarize the attempts to fix the problem may be of some value. The following have been performed:

1. Fuel tank drained and inspected (clean as a whistle).
2. New fuel tank stopcock placed with a fuel filter as the old one had fallen off.
3. Fuel filter on the old fuel pump was filled with debris and removed, the debris flushed out of the fuel lines and filter and gasket were replaced. Tractor was restarted and the this filter was reexamined and no more debris was found.
4. Fuel filter at the sediment bowl was removed, found to be clean, cleaned anyways and reinstalled. No debris in sediment bowl.
5. Fuel filter on the carb fuel intake line was removed (this is the fourth and final filter in the system), found to be clean, cleaned anyways and reinstalled.
6. Carburetor (original Holley) was removed, completely disassembled, soaked for hours in a gallon of carb cleaner, cleaned subsequently with compressed air and all passages were blown out with carb and choke cleaner. Then using an original CNH rebuild kit the carb was rebuilt to specs. The float had no leaks upon inspection. Carb reinstalled after all linkages were cleaned and lubed.
7. The governor was tested by opening the throttle by hand and revving the engine, it exerted a strong and proportional "pull back" suggesting it is working appropriately.
8. New plugs (gap 0.025).
9. Plug wires only 18 mos old. Inspected carefully for damage, none found.
10. New CNH points (set at 0.025), new condenser, new rotor. Dissy cap, an original Motorcraft part was also 18 mos. old and was inspected and found to be normal and reused.
11. Coil wire to dissy cap was replaced as old electrodes broke off upon removal.
12. New coil.
13. New fuel pump.
14. Allow carb to suck air without any filtration whatsoever-no help.
15. Multiple adjustments to the timing and vacuum advance as outlined above-no help.

The tractor starts and idles great after all of these changes, but wont run with power.

What have I missed?

Bad gas? The same fuel storage tank provides fuel to multiple other engines on the farm without problem. There is an appropriate amount of fuel stabilizer in the storage tank and has been since the fuel was purchased. The is a sediment filter on the storage tank which was last replaced 250 gallons ago. Fuel in the tank is approximately 14 months old.

Bad timing/bad distributor? I have learned that the timing advance is set at low RPM by the vacuum diaphragm, but at higher RPM by the centrifugal advance mechanism within the distributor itself. It seems that I have verified that the vacuum advance mechanism is not the culprit. The raggedness of the engine is clearly insignificant at idle and very reproducible at mid-range and high RPM. Does this suggest that I need to look at the centrifugal advance mechanism on the dissy, next?

I didn't think fixing this problem would be this hard.

 

[Soundguy]

Is the rotor firmly on the distributor shaft ( not loose ) and no bushing side play in the shaft?

 

[shaeff]

As soundguy suggested, doublecheck that rotor. My machine started running funky, still firing on all four but lacking in power. Pulled the cap today to find this:

 

[tmac196]

Is the rotor firmly on the distributor shaft ( not loose ) and no bushing side play in the shaft?

SG/Schaeff - I will check and post back.

I am also going to borrow a compression tester from O'Reilly's Auto Parts and perform a compression test on a warm engine. I'll post back those results as well. It was suggested that a malfunctioning valve or cylinder could possibly be a potential cause of my problem. I guess it never hurts to check.

When I pulled the old plugs there was no real "befouling" of any of the electrodes, though. The tractor does not smoke either while the engine is cold or warm and does not burn oil. I have changed the oil at least 3 times in the last 4 and half years and have never noticed any antifreeze or water in the engine oil. In addition, I had to replace the water pump 2 years ago and there was no oil in the coolant, then, but I will check again.

 

[Soundguy]

A stuck or sticky valve will be a miss.

Still a comp check won't hurt and will give you an idea of engine health.

Let us know on the rotor. A loose one will cause erratic timing.

 

[tmac196]

Update:

Drained fuel tank and added 4.5 gals of fresh gasoline-did not help.

Warmed engine and pulled all three plugs. These plugs, only 3-4 weeks old were already coated with back hydrocarbon sediment...hmmm. Compression testing revealed all three holes were generating identical pressures.

Reinspected distributor cap- normal.

Inspected rotor- Normal appearance and seated fully down on the distributor shaft.

Distributor shaft bushing play was then assessed. Below are two videos which illustrate what we found:

Distributor shaft laxity 2. Ford 2 tractor - YouTube

Distributor shaft laxity Ford 2 - YouTube

While not as obvious on the first video, the distributor shaft had enough play to spread the points apart significantly. The volume of "play" is best seen in the second video.

We next put a timing light on all three spark plug wires just to see if the firing was "rhythmic" or not. Watch the next video carefully and listen to the engine sputter and backfire in the background as the timing light seems to confirm the absence of predictable, rhythmic cycling:

So, are these findings most compatible with a bad distributor? Maybe this also explains the fouling of the fresh plugs.

We tried to do a dwell angle analysis using a multimeter. The multimeter had settings for 4, 6 and 8 cylinder engines. We selected each of these in turn and found that the variation seemed to be greater than the owner's manual recs of 35-38 degrees.

 

[Soundguy]

Definately hear the missing.

On the shaft play. Rotational play is ok, to an extent, because you are seeing the advance movement. side play, almost none is the acceptable answer, because you are looking at a points gap that will change +/1 by the amount of the play.

Try this. set your points gap a HAIR on the tight side. IE.. .023-.024 And then check. If it runs better.. your distribuitor shaft side play is likely too much, and when points are set .025-.028 then you are getting too much gap. ( you can also try the opposite of setting on the high side .027-.029 ) and observe / compare results.

Keep in mind these are tests, not fixes. running with too small a gap will cause arcing and pitting. trying to run with too large a gap, and +variable gap, and you might get (more) missing.

Lastly, don't overlook wet oily plugs. If you have bad oil control rings, you could be fouling out a plug from pumping oil, and causing the missing.

does it run ok with new plugs till it oils up? if yes, pop in some anti foulers and see what you get.

 

[tmac196]

Definately hear the missing.

On the shaft play. Rotational play is ok, to an extent, because you are seeing the advance movement. side play, almost none is the acceptable answer, because you are looking at a points gap that will change +/1 by the amount of the play.

Try this. set your points gap a HAIR on the tight side. IE.. .023-.024 And then check. If it runs better.. your distribuitor shaft side play is likely too much, and when points are set .025-.028 then you are getting too much gap. ( you can also try the opposite of setting on the high side .027-.029 ) and observe / compare results.

Keep in mind these are tests, not fixes. running with too small a gap will cause arcing and pitting. trying to run with too large a gap, and +variable gap, and you might get (more) missing.

Lastly, don't overlook wet oily plugs. If you have bad oil control rings, you could be fouling out a plug from pumping oil, and causing the missing.

does it run ok with new plugs till it oils up? if yes, pop in some anti foulers and see what you get.

SG-

I purchased a new distributor from Steiner Tractor Parts. There are no rebuild kits readily available for old distributors. There is zero side play on the shaft of the new distributor. Will post back the results after the installation.

BTW-we did tighten the points a bit and the engine ran considerably more rough with that adjustment. At that point I decided to replace the dissy, so I quit worrying about point adjustments.

Thank you for the help. I will post a follow up after the distributor is installed.

 

[Soundguy]

good deal. Yep.. if you have variable side play, points adjustment becomes a gamble. you never know where in that play your static points gap really is. setting tight, and on the loose side of the play, you may actually get almost NO gap when the play tight side comes up.

 

[tmac196]

Update:

Spent six hours working on the tractor yesterday and, unfortunately, I have not solved my problem...

New distributor from Steiner Tractor Parts. Set points at 0.025. Set engine to TDC on cylinder one. Removed old distributor and carefully placed new one. Rotor was aligned perfectly at number one cylinder on new dissy and on marks made on tractor block. Started tractor and it ran more roughly than before. Timing set to 0 degrees. Dwell angle perfect at 17.5-19 degrees, but I could not throttle up. If I tried, the engine ran more roughly and RPMs would not/ could not climb. Also noticed a bizarre and idiosyncratic reaction where the gauges and the instrument lights were not working. Battery read 13.3V, but there was not enough RPM to get the generator to produce a charge.

Pulled plug wires 1-2-3 in turn and found engine ran even more roughly with each pull indicating that we did not have a dead cylinder. Pulled plug wires to observe for spark and noticed good spark with each plug wire.

Put old dissy back in and the engine idled better and the gauges worked, but of course, the original problem persisted. By the way, the gauges work with the old dissy and the battery charged appropriately, so the gennie does work.

Pulled old dissy and replaced with new dissy (again) and gauges quit and the rough, sluggish idle returned. Rechecked timing -2 to +2 degrees, dwell was ok, same as before. Attempted to adjust the timing by ear and rotating the distributor in either direction made no difference whatsoever. With new dissy I could not get tractor RPMs out of idle. Timing light showed rhythmic flashes for each spark plug wire with new dissy.

Switched new rotor for old rotor-No change.

Pulled new dissy up and restabbed it back in with the next gear clockwise and counterclockwise, but rotor was then so far off the mark (when the gears were fully engaged) that we didn't even try to start it. We thought we had it right as the timing and dwell angles were perfect in it's original position anyways.

Tried to switch dissy caps, but the new one and the old one were not compatible. Inspected both caps under high intensity lighting and good magnification and no defects were found.

New coil getting good voltage.

Pulled new dissy and put old one back in. Timing set to specs, dwell angles within range, gauges work- but the original rough running engine persists.

So what am I missing?

 

[shaeff]

This may be a total shot in the dark, is the exhaust plugged up? I was out working my machine doing some heavy clearing, was running like a top. I wasn't paying close enough attention, maybe was in a rush, and a large tree trunk snuck up and smashed my exhaust.

On my machine (also a gas job) the exhaust runs under the foot rest. It now loads up and runs rich. Fine at idle, and it'll run at PTO rpm, but not smoothly like it did before I crushed the exhaust.

 

[tmac196]

This may be a total shot in the dark, is the exhaust plugged up? I was out working my machine doing some heavy clearing, was running like a top. I wasn't paying close enough attention, maybe was in a rush, and a large tree trunk snuck up and smashed my exhaust.

On my machine (also a gas job) the exhaust runs under the foot rest. It now loads up and runs rich. Fine at idle, and it'll run at PTO rpm, but not smoothly like it did before I crushed the exhaust.

I don't think so, but I certainly will check. Thanks for the tip.

 

[tmac196]

Exhaust and muffler appear fine.

 

[DJ54]

How far apart did you tear the carb. down..?? I did not realize it, until I just looked, that the Holley carb. has an accelerator pump. The assembly is # 14 and #18 in this exploded view: Official New Holland Online Parts Store and Online Parts Catalog for New Holland and Ford Tractors.

The sound your 2000 makes when trying to accelerate, brought a flash back to the sound my old '74 Chevy pickup made, when they first put ethanol in fuel, and ate the accelerator pump rubber seals in it. Lots of hesitation on acceleration, semi-backfiring, etc.

Just wondering if it could be that, or, with all of the debris in the fuel system, if some particles made it that far plugging it, or making it non-functional.

The bad thing is, looks like parts are not serviceable anymore. Although it does say to contact your dealer if you need assistance. So, either they are totally N/A, or, parts from another Holley will fit, from another application.

Seems I recall Soundguy replaced the Holley on his with another carb., possibly a Marvel-Schebler..?? It seems the subject came up a few years back, when we were discussing fuel economy. I know my 3 cyl. 2000 sure likes it's fuel, and I have it leaned about as far as I can go.

Just some food for thought.

 

[Soundguy]

zenith carb. they are a hair spendy .. but easier than a finicky holley

 

[tmac196]

How far apart did you tear the carb. down..?? I did not realize it, until I just looked, that the Holley carb. has an accelerator pump. The assembly is # 14 and #18 in this exploded view: Official New Holland Online Parts Store and Online Parts Catalog for New Holland and Ford Tractors.

The sound your 2000 makes when trying to accelerate, brought a flash back to the sound my old '74 Chevy pickup made, when they first put ethanol in fuel, and ate the accelerator pump rubber seals in it. Lots of hesitation on acceleration, semi-backfiring, etc.

Just wondering if it could be that, or, with all of the debris in the fuel system, if some particles made it that far plugging it, or making it non-functional.

The bad thing is, looks like parts are not serviceable anymore. Although it does say to contact your dealer if you need assistance. So, either they are totally N/A, or, parts from another Holley will fit, from another application.

Seems I recall Soundguy replaced the Holley on his with another carb., possibly a Marvel-Schebler..?? It seems the subject came up a few years back, when we were discussing fuel economy. I know my 3 cyl. 2000 sure likes it's fuel, and I have it leaned about as far as I can go.

Just some food for thought.

DJ54- Thanks for the feedback.

The carb rebuild was a complete one.

My 2000 was manufactured in September 1965 (per serial number), so I do not have a Holley with the part which you inquired about. Instead, my carb has part #17 as shown (Body & Plugs Assy., Metering, 2000, Years: 01-JAN-65-30-SEP-66) which I removed, cleaned, replaced the gasket and reinstalled. In addition, the accelerator pump piston assembly (Part #14), was completely replaced as part of the rebuild kit.

As of now, the tractor is in the hands of the local dealership as I have exhausted my mechanic skills and have not fixed the problem. I will post back an update when I have one.