Firewood processor help

[J_J]

Did you ever go into Surplus hyd and use the calculators.

Surplus Center.

 

[jonix]

At this point, i already have an excel spreadsheet I have been working with for about last 2 weeks.
I was able to confirm my spreadsheet results with surpluscenter (and others), and i have math to convert for several units of measurements (most metric and american). IF you want, i can give it to you..it takes in consideration some variables that surplus center doesn't, and it serves my propose better..i think it is a nice tool that can bee upgrade (or any possible mistake correct) by any of us..

I make this spreadsheet based on math formulas mostly for HP requiered, oil flows and pressures, advancing and retracting times for cylinders, tonnage, torque and HP for hydraulic motors, torque and HP for sprocket and chain, math for pulleys ratios, chainspeed, rpm's, motors displacements, etc..

So, yes, i already quit going online at surplus center do to this basic math..

Now..surplus center math (and world math) for torque is: MOTOR DISPLACEMENT x SYSTEM PRESSURE (x mechanical efficiency)

Torque at a hydraulic motor is not afected by rpm, that is given by oil flow at pump. This even't be part of the equation in surpluscenter, or other place else!

so, am I missing something?..if do, please tell me..

Only pulleys or belt ratios to change rpms can afect torque..even sprocket syze afect torque ..type of wood and chain afect torque efficiency..FLOW doesnｴt afect TORQUE at this basic level of calculations and math..

 

[jonix]

Well, think this topic needs a "restart", because things are quite messed..you are talking about to much more problems that we really have, i think..please make me one question at the time, and i will answer whatever you want to know, if i can..you keep saying enginner that, HP required this, you must change mostly everything in your circuit because that is all wrong, etc..doesn´t you see the videos of the machine splitting with the HP i have? and it was not working? was it so bad?

Did the engineer make mistakes? YES he did..he inicially even put a 3,5 GPM pump to feed the F11-005 saw motor..so..

What else mistakes the engineer did? no big mistake else, i think, unless the cylinder syze calculations for eucalyptus splitting, for the pressure limits that he configured itself.

He put a "2 stage pump" for splitter with a 2,5:1 flow ratio..think this ratio configuration should be better..maybe 3:1 or even 4:1..it would slow down the splitter in high pressure stage, but it will have more power..and dry eucalyptus, you know...
well, now think this part will work just fine: 30 GPM (combined by the twin pumps) in low pressure mode, and 12,5 GPM in high pressure (3000 PSI), giving almost 40 ton of power, and 24 HP required.

So..what's wrong "with you"? ..sorry, "with my circuit"?

 

[muddstopper]

man..you are messing all it up..

The pump flows we have being talking are rated for 1500 rpm..my electric motor have 1470 rpm..

and JJ, are you telling me that the mathematical formula for TORQUE is WRONG..is that it..?

..later iｴm going to post the hydraulics again..to much things going on at the same time..

Mudstopper, YES you are right!! the thing is I have to put this machine working ..I have no firewood drying..as soon as i have the time, i will put some oil flow in the F11-010..maybe I will try to put my twin pumps doing it..i donｴt know if that is possible, but i am going to ckeck it out..

And guys, yesterday we were testing all moving parts manually, i was hable to mesure times and discovered my "twin Pumps" for splitter work exactly like your 28 GPM 2 stage pumps..mine works like this: 30 GPM at low pressure (I can set the relief up to pumps limit pressure, but it will work at 1000 PSI or so) and 12,5 GPM at high pressure (my limit is 4000 PSI for pump ratings, but only have 25HP, have to work with max 3000 PSI) (I Know 2 stage pump usually work with a 4:1 flow ratio, well, mine have 2,5:1 ratio)
I almost have 40 Tonnes of splitting force, i think this part is no bad..the extend and rectract times are not to bad too..

If I am doing the math right, if you put 30gpm (using the low pressure pump of your 2 stage setup), @1000psi, to your .62cuin motor, it should turn 11117rpms. Doing more math your torque is going to be around 8.25ftlbs and give you 17.6 hp. I dont know if a f11 motor is rated for 11000 rpms, might be, you will have to look that up. With the sprocket direct drive to you f11 motor, you should achieve chain speed of almost 9000ftmin. I am pretty sure you should be able to isolate the low pressure pump from your splitting circuit, you may have to tee in before your splitting circuit to make it work. The trick is going to be keeping the high pressure pump from kicking in and back feeding into your saw circuit. I dont know how your solenoid valves are hooked up. If the solenoid valves for your saw circuit are separate from the splitting circuit, it might just be a matter of using a solenoid manifold with power beyond capabilities, which you might already have. In that case, you could plumb the high flow, low pressure pump to the saw manifold and the let PB carry the oil over to you splitting circuit. Of course doing it this way would mean that if you are sawing and splitting at the same time, you saw might speedup and slow down, or the splitting cyl might speedup and slow down as you activate more than one function at a time.

As for the torque formulas, I havent done the math, but it appears too me that you are figuring the torque values before you introduce the 2:1 pulley ratio to your saw. If that is the case, even though the math might be right, the pulley ratio will reduce the amount of torque and hp to your saw sprocket. Think of it like a lever, if you have a lever 2 ft long to move a rock and you shorthen the lever to 1ft, which lever will it be easier to move the rock with. Going to a 2:1 pully ratio is just like cutting the lever in half. You have the same weight on one end of the lever and the same power on the other end, but now the rock is twice as hard to move.

Edit, I may have read your last post wrong, is that 30gpm with both pumps, or 30gpm with just one pump

 

[jonix]

30 GPM with both twin pumps (pump 1 is 17,5 GMP and pump 2 is 12,5 GPM)..pump 1 is rated for a max of 3000 PSI and pump 2 is rated for limit of 4000 PSI)..both pumps have pressure reliefs, that i can manipulate as i want, with my HP source limitations of course..those two twin pumps are working together in a separate circuit with one solenoide, i think..

My saw is workink at another circuit with it's own pump, that as a solenoid and pressure relief too..

All the other functions are at my 3rd circuit with another pump, and 6 or 7 solenoids i think..

 

[J_J]

Either you are not understanding or don't want to, but your numbers do not add up.

Your motor and pump can not make 30 GPM at 3000 psi. That volume and pressure would require about 58.3 HP.

If you used the 4000 psi number to compute HP, it would take about 77.8 HP.

To get 30 GPM at 1470 motor rpm, you need a pump with a displacement of 4.71 cu in. You could spread the displacement across multiple pumps, but the rpm will be the same.

You still need 58 HP or 77 HP depending on pressure.

If you want 30 GPM using your electric motor, then you have to limit the pressure to 1300 psi using 25 HP.

You should also know that any pressure developed is dictated by the load, and the HP requirements will vary through the psi range.

Go to the calculators page on Surplus and plug in the numbers and you might see what we are trying to tell you.

Maybe I should quit trying to help and let you make all the mistakes you want to.

 

[muddstopper]

JJ, I think he is saying he is only making 30gpm @ 1000psi, which is the high flow, low pressure of his twin pump setup. He can only make 3000psi @12. 5 gpm, when his pumps kick into low flow, high pressure mode. This is marginal, but he is also using a electric motor and not a gas or diesel, so its within possibility. I think what he needs to do is to figure out a way to run both pumps thru his saw, staying at low pressure and not kicking into high pressure low flow, yet still have the high pressure, low flow available to run his splitter. Of course he wouldnt be able to run both circuits at the same time, but if he can figure to how to route his hydraulics, he would have a kickass saw and a pretty good splitter. I don think he is going to be able to get the automatic/ run everything at one time part where he wants it without going to a bigger motor size.

 

[J_J]

His pump chart in post #1, has a total flow of 37.5 GPM.

He doesn't have the correct data to figure anything.

I have yet to see the displacement of each pump and the max pressure rating.

I see no purpose of running two pumps into one flow path and monkey with the relief pressures and check valve setups.

Those pumps are going to be pumping out volume, and the load will dictate the pressure.

Again, to achieve 30 GPM, he needs for the two pumps to have a displacement of 4.71 cu in, and to split wood at 3000 psi, he needs 58 HP which he ain't got.

His 25 HP motor can power a 12.85 GPM pump at a max pressure of 3000 psi. There should not be a low and high anything. So, if he sets the two splitter pumps relief pressure to 3000 psi, and check valves on both pumps, then the motor should not stall at max pressure.

 

[ptsg]

How can he not be able to run with the current setup, if he have already run it? He has a video showing it. By automatic, I don't think that he will run all functions at the same time. It will just run one function at a time, so the setup he have right now, it's good to go.

 

[J_J]

I just don't believe he can pump 30 GPM at 3000 psi.

Yes, he can split something, but how much pressure was developed.

I can also lift the arms on my loader at about 400 psi or less with no load all day.

Just about any amount of hyd can do some work, but to what extent.

Just for fun, throw a log in crossways, and see if the load can cause the cyl to build up relief pressure and see how the electric motor reacts.

Show us a video with pressure gauge and the sound of the electric motor.

If you have an amp meter, put it on the motor to see full draw.

I want to see the 3000 relief psi on the gauge.

If I see 3000 psi on the gauge and the motor not straining, then I will concede.

But then, I would like to see correct data on all pumps.

Can you show me flow in GPM's using a hyd flow meter , which will show GPM's.

Just saying the capability, dose not make it so.

 

[jonix]

Either you are not understanding or don't want to, but your numbers do not add up.

Your motor and pump can not make 30 GPM at 3000 psi. That volume and pressure would require about 58.3 HP. (I KNOW THAT SINCE...)

If you used the 4000 psi number to compute HP, it would take about 77.8 HP. (SURPLUSCENTER AGAIN? OK....)

To get 30 GPM at 1470 motor rpm, you need a pump with a displacement of 4.71 cu in. You could spread the displacement across multiple pumps, but the rpm will be the same. (i HAVE TWO PUMPS COMBINED WITH exactly 4,71 cu in, don´t understand what you mean with spreadind displacements and same rpm's..)

You still need 58 HP or 77 HP depending on pressure. (DON´T TELL ME...THAT WAS YOU THAT TEACH ME THAT..NOW I KNOW IT JJ)

If you want 30 GPM using your electric motor, then you have to limit the pressure to 1300 psi using 25 HP. (WHAT AM I SAYING FOR DAYS?)

You should also know that any pressure developed is dictated by the load, and the HP requirements will vary through the psi range.

Go to the calculators page on Surplus and plug in the numbers and you might see what we are trying to tell you. (WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL ME? I´m more and more confused...)

Maybe I should quit trying to help and let you make all the mistakes you want to.

(I TRYING TO RESOLVE PROBLEMS, AND I WAS ABLE TO RESOLVE SOME, THANKS TO YOU AND OTHERS, AND MY SELF TOO..I DON´T WANT TO MAKE MYSTAKES..BY DO WAY: WHAT MYSTAKES DO YOU THINK I AM DOING, OR PLAN TO DO?

JJ, do you know how yours 2 stage pumps work? well, my twin pumps work exactly the same, the only diference is that they are working with a "proper block valve" with a solenoid that do what 2 stage pumps usually do..they automatic switch one FLOW to another when the pressure in the systems varies..in my case, they switch 30 GPM combined to 12,5 GPM of one pump)..so, again, I have 30 GPM combined by two pumps at once (with my HP limits i only can run those 30 GPM@1200 PSI) and when pressure rises I have 12,5 GPM@3000 PSI, because I only have 25 HP in power source)..I do not plane to run 30 GPM@3000 PSI..are we talking for days about the same, don´t you think?

I have the following pump displacements: 2,69 + 2,01 + 1,45 + 0,98 cu in
total displacement in system: 7,13 cu in ( i do not plan to run all this displacement at the same time, obviously)
total displacement for twin splitter pumps: 4,71 cu in (exactly wath you said i need, is what i really have )

 

[jonix]

I just don't believe he can pump 30 GPM at 3000 psi.

Yes, he can split something, but how much pressure was developed.

I can also lift the arms on my loader at about 400 psi or less with no load all day.

Just about any amount of hyd can do some work, but to what extent.

Just for fun, throw a log in crossways, and see if the load can cause the cyl to build up relief pressure and see how the electric motor reacts.

Show us a video with pressure gauge and the sound of the electric motor. (soon i would do that, i promise

If you have an amp meter, put it on the motor to see full draw. (i was able to check 100 AMP pikes, but normally electrics work with 20-25 amp)

I want to see the 3000 relief psi on the gauge.

If I see 3000 psi on the gauge and the motor not straining, then I will concede.

But then, I would like to see correct data on all pumps.

Can you show me flow in GPM's using a hyd flow meter , which will show GPM's. ( don´t ask me to put pressure anf flow gauges in all pipes please..don´t have the time for that..i need my firewood drying soon..)

Just saying the capability, dose not make it so.

yes, i know..this is all in theory..the true is that the data we have been work is the MAX theoreticall system settings and without counting with loses, heatings, flows issues, mechanicall efficiency, etc, etc..

 

[J_J]

I believe that every hyd circuit should have a relief valve to protect the pump.

If the circuit does not have a relief, you could blow the pump, valve , fitting, damage yourself, etc.

Somewhere in earlier post, you said you had reliefs set at 3000 and 4000 psi. If you do not have relief, the motor and pump will try and pump fluid until it can't.

In your PDF, I saw a pressure of 1233 psi for the splitter pressure. Is that your goal? I thought you were going to build a super splitter, using such large cyl. A 6 in cyl at 1233 psi = 34,862, or 17 ton.

We have $1000 to $ 2000 engine driven log splitters just about every where, splitting with 4 in cyl with pressures to 3000 psi, at about 37,690 lbs, or 18 ton, or 30 ton spitting just about anything thrown at it, using a 5HP or a Honda 200 cc engine. .

Tractor hyd can do the same thing.

Powerhorse 3-Pt. Horizontal/Vertical Log Splitter — 22 Tons | Log Splitters| Northern Tool + Equipment

I never did hear your expectations as to the tonnage desired, and speed.

I did look back and found this quote.

[ Off hand I would think the splitter would work at 30 tons but (i think i was tell that at 3000 psi it would be working with 40 Tons ]

 

[SpringHollow]

I have been designing a processor in my head for years and I have to keep walking away from using a hydraulic saw because I can not afford the HP it would require to run it (it would be different if it was for commercial use). This never makes sense to me because a large chainsaw is around 6 HP but you need closer to 30 HP or more for a processor chain saw. I think part of that is because you can easily control the amount of "bite" on a traditional hand held chainsaw so it does not require as much HP.

Ken

 

[muddstopper]

I have been designing a processor in my head for years and I have to keep walking away from using a hydraulic saw because I can not afford the HP it would require to run it (it would be different if it was for commercial use). This never makes sense to me because a large chainsaw is around 6 HP but you need closer to 30 HP or more for a processor chain saw. I think part of that is because you can easily control the amount of "bite" on a traditional hand held chainsaw so it does not require as much HP.

Ken

I wouldnt shy away from using a hydraulic chainsaw because of engine hp. The saw simply doesnt need a lot of hydraulic pressure to work. If you read one of my last post about the saw, running 30gpm of oil at 1000psi can yield a saw with 17hp. Of course it takes 19/20 engine hp to get there, still thats is twice the hp of the largest gas powered chainsaw currently on the market. Twice the hp of a Husquvarnia 3120 which is 8.5 hp. I forget the torque numbers but that same hyd motor is putting out about 4 times the torque as that same 3120 chainsaw. The problem with hydraulic saws is finding a hyd motor that can turn the chain at the speed and power it needs to cut properly. Because the saws are not using max req. pressure, you can over flow the oil to a gear motor and get pretty decent cutting speed. Problem with this type of setup is most of those gear pumps use bushings for the pump shaft instead of bearings. They are not designed for the extra speed. The f11 hyd motors are designed for high speed, but they do bring there own problems to the mix. first is simply initial cost. I can buy 3 or 4 gear motors for the cost of a single f11. Because the f11 motors are small cuin (Yes they make very large F11 motors too), it takes more psi to get the hp and torque to make them work. Most everyone trying to build a hydraulic chainsaw concerns themselfs with motor rpms, and this is a big mistake. Chain speed in ftpermin is what you need to be shooting for. A lot can be done by simply changing out the sprocket to pull the chain. A Husky 3120 chainsaw runs 9000rpms to pull a saw chain, but it uses a small 7 tooth sprocket. If you use a 14 tooth rim type sprocket, you can use a motor that turns 4500 rpms and still get the same ftpm with your saw chain. Of course this is also where you start getting into the whole gearing and power ratio thing. If you are going to have the same cutting power as that 8.5hp husky chainsaw, you are going to need the hp input to be twice as big because your sprocket ratio going from 7 tooth to 14 tooth is now 2:1. still, it is much easier and cheaper to find a gear motor and over flow the oil at low pressure to get 4500rpms, than it is to use a small f11 motor and try to pump large flows and high pressures to get your saw to cut. Where as the fll motors we are currently talking about are .62cuin, 30gpm will give you a rpm speed of over 11000rpms, you can use a 1.2 cuin gear motor and get twice the hp/torque, but half the rpms. In theory, the saw should cut with the same speed, using either motor.

I will add that a lot of the smaller processors on the market on run 25hp engines and gear pumps. Also in the case of the f11 now turning 11000 rpms, In this case, I think I would go back to hs original 3/8 chain and 7 tooth sprocket instead of going to a .404 chain, sprocket and bar.

 

[muddstopper]

My hydraulic saw. Using a 1.3 cuin axial piston motor/ with case drain and bearings on shaft, and 13 tooth sprocket and .404 chain. 30gpm@ 5331 rpm (motor rated for 4600rpm) chain speed of 4660ftmin at 17.25ftlbs torque and 17.5hp@1000psi

 

[jonix]

I have been designing a processor in my head for years and I have to keep walking away from using a hydraulic saw because I can not afford the HP it would require to run it (it would be different if it was for commercial use). This never makes sense to me because a large chainsaw is around 6 HP but you need closer to 30 HP or more for a processor chain saw. I think part of that is because you can easily control the amount of "bite" on a traditional hand held chainsaw so it does not require as much HP.

Ken

I think you can control the "amount of bite" in processor saws..if your saw cylinder work with very low pressure (think harvesters work somewhere between 40 and 80 PSI depending on systems specs and chain), it will be the saw that "decides" the bite that is going to be taken of the wood..adjusting flow for saw cylinder will change saw down and up velocity..you even could have high down into the wood velocity, but if the pressure is rated for that low PSI, is the torque or HP output that is going to "decide" the velocity of the cut when chain get into the wood..obviously, the saw is going to slow down in the midlle of the log, and speed up at the end, depending if it have "more or less wood" at time to cut..

as mudstopper say, if you haven't start building that saw, i think you should listen is calculations, you should be able to have a decent cut without lots and lots of source HP..

What is your limits in this source HP?

 

[jonix]

View attachment 433487 My hydraulic saw. Using a 1.3 cuin axial piston motor/ with case drain and bearings on shaft, and 13 tooth sprocket and .404 chain.View attachment 433491 30gpm@ 5331 rpm (motor rated for 4600rpm) chain speed of 4660ftmin at 17.25ftlbs torque and 17.5hp@1000psi

Don´t you have some video of that configuration working? (in what type of wood, and at what chain deep gauges settings?)

 

[jonix]

I believe that every hyd circuit should have a relief valve to protect the pump.

If the circuit does not have a relief, you could blow the pump, valve , fitting, damage yourself, etc.

Somewhere in earlier post, you said you had reliefs set at 3000 and 4000 psi. If you do not have relief, the motor and pump will try and pump fluid until it can't. (YES, that's why my electric motor want to turn off when the pressure rise up 5000 PSI)

In your PDF, I saw a pressure of 1233 psi for the splitter pressure. Is that your goal? I thought you were going to build a super splitter, using such large cyl. A 6 in cyl at 1233 psi = 34,862, or 17 ton. ( I send you that PDF as an example of what output my spreadsheet can give, i keep messing around with input data all the time, i even't remember what imput data i have for that PDF) (my splitter isn't a supersplitter, it has theoretical 37 Ton of force)

We have $1000 to $ 2000 engine driven log splitters just about every where, splitting with 4 in cyl with pressures to 3000 psi, at about 37,690 lbs, or 18 ton, or 30 ton spitting just about anything thrown at it, using a 5HP or a Honda 200 cc engine. .

Tractor hyd can do the same thing.

Powerhorse 3-Pt. Horizontal/Vertical Log Splitter — 22 Tons | Log Splitters| Northern Tool + Equipment

I never did hear your expectations as to the tonnage desired, and speed. (My expectations were always blocked by the system input HP limits. Currently, for a 19 inches amount of travel, i have an extend time of 5.3 seg and a retract time of 3,6 sec, at low pressure mode. In hight pressure mode the extend time is 12 sec and retract time is 8 sec - obviously, the retract will always be in low pressure, so I have always a 3,6 sec retraction) (I have @1300 PSI -low pressure mode- 17 tonnes of force, and @2900 PSI - high pressure mode - 37 tonnes) [I was able to measure the retract and extend time at low pressure, and i measure 5 sec to extend and almost 4 sec to retract, so this part matches the theory, meaning that my flows are wright]

I did look back and found this quote. (FORGET THE PAST,I thought you had realized that as this post was evolving, I was evolving too..I start from 0 here, most of my data was given by people that are not so understud as they should be)

[ Off hand I would think the splitter would work at 30 tons but (i think i was tell that at 3000 psi it would be working with 40 Tons ]

YOU didn´t responde to my question: what do you think i am doind wrong, or plan to do wrong.

 

[muddstopper]

I think you can control the "amount of bite" in processor saws..if your saw cylinder work with very low pressure (think harvesters work somewhere between 40 and 80 PSI depending on systems specs and chain), it will be the saw that "decides" the bite that is going to be taken of the wood..adjusting flow for saw cylinder will change saw down and up velocity..you even could have high down into the wood velocity, but if the pressure is rated for that low PSI, is the torque or HP output that is going to "decide" the velocity of the cut when chain get into the wood..obviously, the saw is going to slow down in the midlle of the log, and speed up at the end, depending if it have "more or less wood" at time to cut..

as mudstopper say, if you haven't start building that saw, i think you should listen is calculations, you should be able to have a decent cut without lots and lots of source HP..

What is your limits in this source HP?

Oregon recommends between 50-75lbs of down force on their saw bars. You could hang a bag of horse feed off the end of the bar and make it cut. This usually means some sort of pressure reducing valve (not relief valve) to limit pressure to your saw cylinder, Can be as low as 100psi but depends on cyl bore, must be a small bore cyl. It doesnt take a much power as one would suspect to use a hydraulic chainsaw. The biggest problem with the saw cylinder is keeping it from jumping back up and throwing the chain when you lift the saw back out of the wood. Power to run my saw isnt a problem, I plan on a 190hp diesel engine. I also will be putting 60gpm at 3000psi to my twin 4.5in bore splitting cylinders. 50+tonnes of splitting force. I will also be using a stacked pump setup. three pumps, 60/30/10 gpms. If need be, I should be able to crank the saw pressure up to 3000psi and put 40 or so hp at the saw. Saw motor is rated for 4600psi IIRC. I dont plan on anything near those numbers. Doubt the chain could take the pressure anyways. I will start at around 700psi and work my way up. A torn rotator cup has limited my ability to do much work on my processor build. Due to have surgery in Sept. After that, its just a matter of getting back to it. To test my saw, I plan on just using my current splitter pump, 28gpm low pressure mode. I do not have a video of my saw working, Its been setting on a shelf since I built it. It should work and last longer than a gear pump, have more torque than a f11 without needing the high rpms to get there.

There are a lot of differences in our processor builds. For one thing, I decided against all the automation. For another, I will be pumping a lot more oil, using a single stage pump for my twin splitting cylinders. I am also building a small knuckle boom to mount on the processor, which is what the small 10gpm pump will be powering. The small pump will also double as a power supply to run my conveyors,(2), wedge adjustment (12way wedge) and saw cyl. None of the listed will be running while the knuckle boom is working. The other really big difference will be my HP input to power all the hydraulics. I also plan on processing a lot bigger wood than your machine seems capable of processing. I dont process any soft woods, mostly oaks, locust, and hickory. Always a few other woods such as sourwood and maple (red and silver) and the occasional black gum or ash.