Firewood processor help

[jonix]

well..i definitly think that you should give your saw all that it can take..STIHL 40 RMHS chain can handle with a max of 87 HP and recomended speed is almost 8000 feet/minute..hope you recovery soon from surgery..i definitly want to see your machine working.. 190 HP?!?..how much gallons of fuel per hour are we talking about?

Don´t understand this: " The biggest problem with the saw cylinder is keeping it from jumping back up and throwing the chain when you lift the saw back out of the wood"..can you explain it to me? I have a pressure reducing valve that i´m going to use at saw cylinder..

And what rod size your twin cylinders have? You mencioned only the 4.5 in bore size..
And why twins? is better that way?

"...have more torque than a f11 without needing the high rpms to get there..."
well, with a F11-019, with all that oil you should be able to cut at 68 HP and 7500 feet/min and almost 500 lbf in of torque..78 HP required, 3000 PSI of pump pressure, and 40 GPM of oil..but this is the old discussion about low rpm motors VS parker F11 motors VS price
I think this subject deserves a dedicated topic:
what is the "perfect" configuration to cut firewood? (torque vs sprocket size vs chain type and pitch vs chain speed vs other thing else)
IS there any topic like this here in tractorbynet?

I saw your topic about 12 wedges configuration..very nice..

well..think ours processors are quite diferent ..i wish i was in the starting phase of my project, not in the end of it..190 HP ?!?!? how many tonnes of firewood do you splitt for year?

 

[muddstopper]

well..i definitly think that you should give your saw all that it can take..STIHL 40 RMHS chain can handle with a max of 87 HP and recomended speed is almost 8000 feet/minute..hope you recovery soon from surgery..i definitly want to see your machine working.. 190 HP?!?..how much gallons of fuel per hour are we talking about?
Dont have a clue as to how much fuel it will burn. I am thinking it wont be cheap, but motor also wont be running full rpms. Just have to wait and see.
Donｴt understand this: " The biggest problem with the saw cylinder is keeping it from jumping back up and throwing the chain when you lift the saw back out of the wood"..can you explain it to me? I have a pressure reducing valve that iｴm going to use at saw cylinder..
giving a cyl a given flow rate, it gets that same flow rate whether its extending or retracting. To fast extending= extra fast retracting. It just depends on how fast you want to push your saw thru the wood. Giving If you force it to cut, when you pull back on the lever, the saw can jump back up and cause problems. Not a real big deal, just need to restrict flow on the up stroke which can be done with a flow control.


And what rod size your twin cylinders have? You mencioned only the 4.5 in bore size..
And why twins? is better that way?
My reason for using twin cylinders is a matter of economics. I bought 8 cys and sold 6 of them and kept 2, I made $300 and had two cyl to use for my splitter. I would prefer just one cyl, makes it easier to plumb. Cyl are 30in stroke, 4.5in bore and 2.5in rod. Two cyl stacked on top of each other does have slight advantage in that you can spread your pushing pressure over the height of your pusher plate. I dont think its a big deal, but I basicly got paid to take the cyl's so I will use them

"...have more torque than a f11 without needing the high rpms to get there..."
well, with a F11-019, with all that oil you should be able to cut at 68 HP and 7500 feet/min and almost 500 lbf in of torque..78 HP required, 3000 PSI of pump pressure, and 40 GPM of oil..but this is the old discussion about low rpm motors VS parker F11 motors VS price
I think this subject deserves a dedicated topic:
what is the "perfect" configuration to cut firewood? (torque vs sprocket size vs chain type and pitch vs chain speed vs other thing else)
IS there any topic like this here in tractorbynet?There are several topics dealing with firewood processors. I think everybody has their own opinions and their own specific set of circumstances, so I dont think there is any one general rule you can follow. To me, and Ideal set up would be a saw that can drop a round at the same speed the cyl can split it. No waiting on the saw to cut and no waiting on the splitter to split. Real world, thats hard to accomplish. Rounds are different size and density so you will saw some rounds fast and some rounds slow.. I have demoed a few brands of processors and every one of them had a similar problem, I ended up waiting on the saw. That is why I plan on a saw with lots of power. Now to be honest, those same processors to the owners worked just fine to suit their needs and they thought I was just being picky. Well, if i am putting out the cash to purchase or build a processor, I want it the way I want it and dont care if anybody thinks its overkill.

I saw your topic about 12 wedges configuration..very nice.. Thank you:thumbsup:

well..think ours processors are quite diferent ..i wish i was in the starting phase of my project, not in the end of it..190 HP ?!?!? how many tonnes of firewood do you splitt for year?

Currently, only 4 cords per year, but I am fixing to retire from my current job and want the ability to process 100cd+ per year I will also add, My current splitter has a 25hp engine, 28gpm 2 stage pump, 5in bore cyliner and a 6way adjustable splitting wedge. I processed my 4cords for this winter last week and it took me 5 hrs, and that included stacking in the shed.I also have a boom mounted winch I pickup the big round with so I dont do any heavy lifting.
........

 

[J_J]

YOU didnｴt responde to my question: what do you think i am doind wrong, or plan to do wrong.

I don't think you would like what I have to say about this firewood processor concept.

Have you ever seen another firewood processor or a log splitter using 1300 psi as a limiting pressure when the pump, cyl, and valve can handle up to 3000 to 5000 psi.

I think you started out with a limitation of 25 HP, and you tried to make everything work around that.

I still don't understand what you did with the relief for each circuit.

Each hyd circuit should have a relief valve to limit the pressure to protect the pump or motor or both.

I am assuming that you went with 4 pumps for convenience. However I think you thought you could get full potential out of all 4 pumps.

With the displacements of the pumps you chose, you can't use the full potential of the pumps.

I have seen different numbers at to the GPM's, cu in, and pressure expected.

As to the cyls, are these homebuilt, and what qualifications were used to build same. If good specs and material were used , what failed in the first cyl?

I really don't know what your expectations were.

However I would have started out with the HP limitations of 25 HP, and found the cu in displacement that the motor could handle at 3000 psi.

I see that all the pumps can handle up to about 3000 to 4000 psi.

I do not know the cyl limitation. What is the max pressure rating?

However, it is easy to calculate the force giving the cyl bore rod size, and pressure to compute tonnage.

Why do you not have a relief valve set on the valve to limit the pressure on the cyl and load on the motor. You can not get by with the splitter circuit set at 3000 to 4000 psi, the motor just can not handle it.

If you only use the log splitter pump doing work, you would need 12.85 GPM at 3000 to use the potential of the electric motor.

Now about the gear pumps. I don't know what numbers are correct.

When one looks at a pump for volume and pressure, that figure is stated at max rpm. Are your pump GPM's computed for half speed which is the 1470 rpm electric motor.

A good pump can maintain the pressure developed by the load through the pumps rpm range.

Is it a wrong designed, maybe not for you. You have to live with what you built or can modify to suit your needs.

I am almost tired of using wrong data to compute things, where you are changing figures every so often.

Go ahead and use the system as you planed and then tell us what you expected and what really happened.

When I first read through the date posted, I thought you were going to load logs, cut logs and split logs and use conveyer to dump at the same time.

Some of the firewood processors I have seen, seem to be using all functions at the same time.

I am not impressed so far, but that is a nice wedge design.

I have asked for cu in of the log splitter pumps, and the pumps rated GPM and at what speed.

 

[muddstopper]

I dont know if he ever posted the cuin size of the pumps, maybe. He did say the posted flows are @1500rpms.
I dont think he will ever get to the level of automation he seems to be shooting for with his current setup. I do think if he is willing to compromise and not try to run the cyl and the saw at the same time, he can have a really badass saw, and his splitter seems to be working. His videos of the machine splitting wood didnt impress me. Looked a little slow for my liking. I havent figured out how his two stage pump setup works. If one pump only build 2000psi?? and the other pump build 3000psi, how is he seperating the flows. Only thing I can think of is that he is using a pressure switch to power his solenoid valves so that when pressure reaches 2000psi, the high flow pump just dumps oil back to tank, while the high pressure pump keeps supplying oil and pressure. This would work, but somewhere the two flows much be separated or the high pressure pump would backfeed the low pressure side. Maybe the flows are separated at the solenoid valve, so that when the pressure switch energizes the solenoid to dump to tank, it also blocks high pressure from backflowing thru the system. I am also in agreement, he needs some sort of relief to keep from stalling the electric motor. Failure to provide a relief is only going to result in a burn up motor. I know from his first video, there are some reliefs built into his solenoid valves, but am not sure if that reliefs pressure to a individual circuit or straight from the pump itself. If each valve spool in his solenoid setup has its own relief, then that might be enough, until one of them sticks and causes a pressure spike.

JJ, I have some question for you about using a closed center pump. When I figure out what i need to ask I will start another thread.

 

[jonix]

Here we go again with the same questions...

of course i am not planning to run all functions at same time in automatic mode..guys, i only have 25 HP of imput power, how can i run it all?!?!?!

JJ, this is the last time i post my circuit configuration..i already told you more than once that was not me who built this configuration, i am only trying to solve wrong things that someone (engineer) did, without spending money, and with limited time, since i urgently have to put some firewood drying..i have a firewood business to run, and have lots of health issues..i desesperatly need this machine working, or i have to quit selling firewood here in Portugal.. and please forget my past posts, and concentrate on this:

1- electric motor 25 HP @ 1470 rpm

2- Gear pumps flows @ 1500 rpm: 16,5 GPM and 2,7 cuin displacement, max intermitent 3000 PSI
12,7 GPM, 2,0 cu in, max 4100 PSI
8,9 GPM, 1,45 cu in, max 2800 PSI
6 GPM, 0,98 cu in, max 3250 PSI

3- 3 independent circuits (one for splitter, one for saw and saw cylinder, and another for all the rest) with independent block solenoid valves. I´m at 0 (ZERO) knowledge in this part of valves, reliefs, check valves, etc, but I swear I'll study this subject , and within a few days I can talk about this with some knowledge. I think I have somewhere the engineer circuit draw, i´m gonna find it and post it!

4- the splitter circuit work like yours surpluscenter 2 stage pumps..do the math, and you can figure out what i can do with 25 HP and 29,2 GPM at 1500 rpm, with 12,7 GPM at high pressure stage and 29,2 GPM at low pressure stage @ 6,3 in bore and 3,5 in rod cylinder.

5- My saw circuit have 2 solenoids: one for saw motor and one for saw cylinder (this one have some king of pressure regulator valve too, so i can change pressure in saw cylinder independent of pressure in saw, that have it own relief or check valve, or whatever it have). This is feed with the 8,9 GPM pump. Again, you can do the math, and figure out what my .404 chain should give. Don´t forget i have 2:1 pulleys ratio, and 12 tooth rim sprocket, and f11-010 parker motor.

6-the third circuit is feed by the 6 GPM pump, and it intend to work with clamp (this one have pressure valve, or what else kind of valve to clamp at what pressure i need), log conveyor, log deck, log lenght, and log push down system.

7- almost all my lines have flow control valves, so i can change things as i want

Think this is all I know about my machine..

About my homemade cylinder: it has no specs, it is homemade. If it explode, and since the machine will be working mostly in automatic mode, i hope to be away, stacking some wood or something..if i die, i will remember that you have been warning me about my homemade cylinder..

 

[jonix]

there is a link for manual mode:

soon i will post the machine at work..think is going to be quite slow, but is what i have for now..

 

[J_J]

You said.

About my homemade cylinder: it has no specs, it is homemade. If it explode, and since the machine will be working mostly in automatic mode, i hope to be away, stacking some wood or something..if i die, i will remember that you have been warning me about my homemade cylinder..

Here is an example of a hyd injury.

Fitting exploded in a gloved hand using a hyd tool.

 

[jonix]

woow..if that was made by a fitting, i wonder what it could happen with a cylinder explosion..

..hope that guy is ok, seriously..

some videos of the first test, without splitter and saw reliefs settings..yes..I already figure it out..have some kind of security valve, that limit pressure on each of my 3 circuits..as soon as pressure rises to pre determined numbers, the valve flows to tank, to protect pumps and system..think this called relief valve..in portuguese is "válvula limitadora de pressão"..

 

[jonix]

 

[jonix]

 

[J_J]

What happens in your country when a commercial or industrial accident happens?

Do the safety police come around and make you change things?

The speed of your saw and cyl seem good enough.

I still want to know the log splitter pressure developed at max cyl extension.

Different logs will develop different pressure because of the work being done.

From your data, I am understanding that you can not achieve a pressure over 1330 psi on any log or the motor will begin to stall. So, if that is true, then the relief valve for the log splitter should be set to 1270 psi.

Does automation mean to you, that by pressing one button, all the functions work without hands on.

OR

Are you talking about semi-automatic by you having to press one button at a time for the function to operate.

 

[jonix]

What happens in your country when a commercial or industrial accident happens?..well, in this case, without certifications and machine licensing, i am f****..the insurence dot not cover any damage..

Do the safety police come around and make you change things? this machine is half homemade, so safety police does nor aplly here..problably i have to stop working with the machine..or change it for safety standards..

The speed of your saw and cyl seem good enough. well, i think is to slow, but, is what i have..for now..

I still want to know the log splitter pressure developed at max cyl extension. To know that, i have to shut off an inductive sensor that makes cylinder stop before the end of the stroke..problaby, is what iｴm going to do to set up reliefs wright..I donｴt see any other way to do that

Different logs will develop different pressure because of the work being done. yes, i know

From your data, I am understanding that you can not achieve a pressure over 1330 psi on any log or the motor will begin to stall. So, if that is true, then the relief valve for the log splitter should be set to 1270 psi. NO! in splitter hight pressure mode only the 12,7 pump works, so, with 25 HP, I should be able to put much more than that, around 2900 PSI..so my splitter 12,7 GPM pump relief is going to be around 2800 PSI)

Does automation mean to you, that by pressing one button, all the functions work without hands on.

OR

Are you talking about semi-automatic by you having to press one button at a time for the function to operate.

well, both..i am going to set up 2 or 3 diferent automatic or semi-automatic programs..the max automation i can do with this setup is, by pressing one button, all the functions will work step by step, in repeated cycles, untill there is no wood in log feeding..maybe in future i can put some kind of sensors in log deck so the machine can work completely by itself..but that isnｴt easy..all the logs have diferent sizes..think to do this, i will need a step log feeder..

 

[J_J]

There are some things you could do.

Larger electric or another electric motor driving just the log slitter pump .

Excerpt: from a log splitter manufacturer.

If you want to get a lot of work done and fast, pony-up for the 5X24 welded cylinder & our NEW blazing fast 28 GPM pump (make sure to get the 3/4" log splitter valve) to split 30 Tons with less than 10 second cycle time (unloaded). A 16 HP motor minimum is required for required for gas, and maybe less HP for electric driven.

There is usually a short burst of high pressure flow to get the split started, then the high flow /low pressure takes over.

A smaller hyd cyl will provides more speed.

Is the majority of the wood you want to split very hard.

Higher pressure will only increase tonnage.

Had a friend of mine that used a hyd accumulator to supply the flow to split wood. It was lightning fast, almost exploding some of the wood. It did not last long as it was to powerful.

Consider a 2 gal accumulator at 3000 psi. I watched from a distance.

 

[jonix]

today afternoon we were trying to set up saw and saw cylinder reliefs..

It happen one curious thing, that I don´t Knew..maybe Mudstoper tried to explain it to me, but i could not understand it that way..

we set up the pressure regulator (or relief, i don´t have sure) for saw cylinder for the minimum, and set the flow valve at max for this same saw cylinder.
..So, the saw was working at good pressure relief, behond max for my 25 HP, but my saw cylinder, as it have is own pressure regulator, was working at very low pressure, but at high speed (flow)

What do you think it happens?

Well, motor shut off..i think .404 pitch (with 0,039 in deep gauges) has its own "will" to move forward through the wood, and maybe that's why harvesters chains have minimum required cut power, as if you let the chain move itself through the wood, you will need some good HP numbers..

So, we put no pressure on saw cylinder, and chain "push" down cylinder untill it stops..

Do you think was this what happen?

 

[Leejohn]

I watched your utubes and the saw seemed not to be cutting the way I have seen others. It just seemed to be slow and was it stopping or was you stopping it? That 404 chain is it one of these, 27R, 16H, or 18H? If so and it's good sharp should cut like butter with that log you were cutting in the utube.

 

[jonix]

I watched your utubes and the saw seemed not to be cutting the way I have seen others. It just seemed to be slow and was it stopping or was you stopping it? That 404 chain is it one of these, 27R, 16H, or 18H? If so and it's good sharp should cut like butter with that log you were cutting in the utube.

Well, is not that simple..the saw is a litlle slow, yes, just because i don´t have enought source HP to power it....it stops when we give more flow to the saw cylinder and consequently more speed, so it's stops..that´s what you saw in the video, we were messing around with saw cylinder flow..

My .404 chain is a stilh MRHS harvester chain with 0,080in drive link gauge and 0,039in deep gauge..this is too much for this configuration..one of this days i am gonna put in a 3/8 pitch with 12 tooth sprocket and see the diference..think is going to cut faster than .404

It was a new chain..as a good new sharp..that log was a eucalyptus log..if i put some soft wood in it, it should cut better..but lack of torque is the problem..can´t put it better, since I only have 25 HP and a 8,9 GPM pump for it..

 

[johndeerkiwi]

I might have this wrong, as I didn't have time to read the full thread, but I understand you are having problems with the saw motor stopping during the cut? Given that I assume you have a sharp chain, it sounds like you are trying to regulate the saw motor load by controlling the flow of the ram that lowers the saw, and it is applying too much pressure. I personally don't think flow control is best way to control speed of cut, but if you are using this method surely all you need to do is restrict the flow a little more?(close your flow control valve more). You also need to have the pressure relief set high as possible for the saw motor, because cutting is the thing that takes the most power(along with the splitting ram, which at times, also uses alot of power).
There are a couple of other ways of preventing the the saw motor relief from blowing....One is reasonably complex and envolves a fitting that constantly senses the load on the saw motor, and slows the oil flow to the saw drop ram as more load goes on. In this system the speed of the bar drop is constantly varying to match the motor's load.
A more simple way is by using an (adjustable) pressure reducing valve to the saw drop ram to apply downward pressure on the bar (just like we can do with our hand held chainsaw).

According to Oregon, a 404 harvester chain should have approx 50lb (23Kg) pressure on the log measured at mid bar. You can still use a flow control valve to get the bar to lower to the log at the correct speed, but the the pressure reducing valve will LIMIT the amount of pressure applied. It's my understanding that most commercial harvester set-ups like this use about 40-50hp, so you might only need less than half this...maybe just a few pounds pressure?

A normally open pressure reducing valve senses the downstream pressure, and will close when the set pressure is reached, therby regulating the pressure exerted by the ram, and therefore regulates the bar and chain pressure during the cut. (Tip...If you make the saw decend by retracting the ram(instead of extending the ram), you can use a higher hydraulic pressure, or, alternately, if your pressure requirement is very low, you can use two pressure reducing valves so that the ram pushes against a set back pressure. By one of these methods you can control the bar pressure quite accurately.

Of course the Russians just use a spring! Just like their cosmanauts used a pencil in outer space!!

Oregon have available formulas for calculationg the rate of cut for a particular power input (for instance a .404 50Hp saw going the correct chain speed should cut a 12" dia log in less than 1 second!)
I thought your chainsaw was cutting fairly slow (did I read you have 15 h.p.?...if so it should be faster!!) My larger handheld Jonsered chainsaw cuts that fast and is less than a third of that horsepower. So I'm wondering if you are perhaps not putting enough of your available power into the saw motor, by having your pressure relief set too low?

When you are cutting with the chainsaw, your (electric)motor should be under near full load). You can increase the load on your electric motor with a higher pressure relief setting. Use an electrical amp load indicator to see how hard the electrical motor is actually working! (Every electrician should have one).

In regard to the chain coming off, this happens sometimes when the chain stops before the saw is retracted. To prevent it, try a lower spring pressure (5 psi) on the one way non-return valve that allows the saw motor to overun...this will let it slowdown less abruptly, by which time you should have lifted the bar. You want the chain still going around as you lift. Alternately, configure the saw motor to still be going after the cut, until the saw is lifted.

 

[jonix]

johndeerkiwi ,

Well, automation donne..tomorrow the machine is going to start working for firewood production..

Got definitively to do do something to that saw..is slow enought..i read what you wrote, and think is very well explained and makes all the sense..so here my circuit:
saw cylinder with 2in bore and 1,5in rod, pushing the saw down when it extends..so it is contrary to what should be, think i understand this part..the cylinder is way to big, should have less thickness ..with this I have now, if i aplly to it only 50 PSI, even so it will be putting on the saw bar 140 lbs, witch is way to much..and think can no work go with 50 PSI..so another issue here..

the circuit have two flow regulators..one instaled before the cylinder witch controls cylinder extend, and another after, controling the retract..don´t have sure if this is putting some problems there to..

the saw circuit, wich is feed by a 8,9 GPM pump with a limit of around 2600 PSI continuous, is feeding both saw cylinder and saw motor (parker F11-010 with 0,62 cu in displacement). The main block valve for this circuit have a relief valve , and at the top of this block there are two solenoids, one for saw control, and another for saw cylinder..wright before saw cylinder solenoid valve, there is a pressure control valve (on top of main valve block and before the solenoid), that is regulating only saw cylinder line pressure..(this part is confusing me to think about it, there is one relief for both lines, plus one pressure valve for one of that lines?!?!?!)

So, if i understand what you mean, I could resolve the problem by putting another pressure control valve in the line that returns to main block valve, after going trough saw cylinder, providing some "back" pressure, so i control saw bar descend? and, well, 8,9 pump should be replaced for a bigger flow pump too..think 8,9 GPM for both saw cylinder and saw motor is quite low..torque should be higher, so I can put that saw going trough the wood at more speed..it is so slow, that I am ashamed to show..

well, here is the video of automatic mode working..almost 35 sec for each cycle..:thumbdown:

 

[jonix]

Manual mode (sorry, we don't have the skills yet to move functions at the time, so please pay only attention to the saw)

we change the 404 pitch to a 3/8 pitch..the rest it´s all the same, even sprocket..regard in the video that as the cuttings go on, we here manipulating the saw cylinder flow control, so we can test how far the new pitch can go with the limited power available..

Well, mudstopper and others have already warned me for this..the cut still's slow, but now is at around half of time compared to the 404 pitch..

Conclusion: if don´t have power for it, don´t go for a .404:mur:

 

[muddstopper]

I thought you where going to try and plumb the 30gpm splitter pumps into your saw motor. I think with your current saw motor and oil flows, its going to be hard to get a lot of chain speed and still have cutting power. I think I also mentioned that with your current setup the 3/8 chain might be a better choice. Using a motel computer so I cant see the videos until I get home. You say the say is slow, but if you can figure out a way to plumb your splitter pumps to work with your saw motor, it should be a badass saw. You wont be able to saw and split at the same time, but at least you should be able decrease the 35sec cycle times considerablely.

Flow controls only work in one direction, I believe you said you are using 2 seperate flow controls on you saw cylinder. You might try removing one of them so that the bar is fast in one direction and slow in the other. A 2.in bore cyl is a big cyl to push the saw thru the wood. If you can revese the cyl mount so that it pulls the saw instead of pushing it, that will help with reduceing down force on the bar and increase feed rate. It will work if you can get the flows right as well as the pressure low enough that it doesnt break the bar off its mounting bolts.