Firewood processor help

[J_J]

Somo flow controls have restricted flow in one direction and full flow in the other direction.

He probably does not have much pressure on the saw push cyl.

The saw max GPM input is 13.7 GPM continuous, and `5.7 intermittent.

 

[jonix]

I thought you where going to try and plumb the 30gpm splitter pumps into your saw motor. I think with your current saw motor and oil flows, its going to be hard to get a lot of chain speed and still have cutting power. I think I also mentioned that with your current setup the 3/8 chain might be a better choice. Using a motel computer so I cant see the videos until I get home. You say the say is slow, but if you can figure out a way to plumb your splitter pumps to work with your saw motor, it should be a badass saw. You wont be able to saw and split at the same time, but at least you should be able decrease the 35sec cycle times considerablely.

Flow controls only work in one direction, I believe you said you are using 2 seperate flow controls on you saw cylinder. You might try removing one of them so that the bar is fast in one direction and slow in the other. A 2.in bore cyl is a big cyl to push the saw thru the wood. If you can revese the cyl mount so that it pulls the saw instead of pushing it, that will help with reduceing down force on the bar and increase feed rate. It will work if you can get the flows right as well as the pressure low enough that it doesnt break the bar off its mounting bolts.

for now i canｴt spend more time..got to put machine working..but, yes, the goal is try to put some oil on it..maybe my splitter pumps can do it..i havenｴt figure it out yet, but i already know what kind of block valve I have: itｴs a "Walvoil" two pump hi-low unloading valve, and i have the schematics draw with all the simbology for this Walvoil valve, but it is chinese to me.. maybe you could "read" it for me.. ..think "AP" is high pressure in italian, an "BP" is low pressure.."T" got to be tank, and the others have no idea..

And yes, itｴs a BIG diference with 3/8 pitch..seems like the chain is almost twice fast..

well, donｴt knew that about flow control valves..the retracting cylinder line (as i have it now, it pulls saw back up to inicial position [yes i agree, if i reverse it should work better, and going to do that as soon as..uff..]) is working with the flow control valve totally open..so, isnｴt that the same, or equal to have no valve in it? ..i know if i close all the "extend" flow valve, the saw cylinder wonｴt move..

and, mudstopper, yesterday we have the machine working on that solenoids (got to improve more some time tasks) ..think you should go for that, grab a beer, and sit down watching work doing by itself..i was impressed, even with 35 sec cycles.. it worth every penny, if not give maintaining problems of course..

 

[jonix]

Somo flow controls have restricted flow in one direction and full flow in the other direction.

He probably does not have much pressure on the saw push cyl.

The saw max GPM input is 13.7 GPM continuous, and `5.7 intermittent.

Do you mean my saw motor input flow? if so, F11-010 parker motor have 25.6 GPM continuous max flow, and 28,5 GPM intermittent..

J.J..don´t you help me with one thing? tomorrow I need to set up splitter reliefs correctly, and don´t have sure how to do that, since i have hi low pressures to set up, and a sensor that don´t let me extend cylinder to max..you think i can do it this way?:

If i disable this sensor, the cylinder will extend to the max and is going to put all shop electricall installation down (trust me, it happens a lot)..so if i open the two reliefs that my Walvoil unloading valve have (one for HI and another for LOW pressure) all the way counterclockwise, when the cylinder extends to max the valve should bypass flow to tank since the pressure is set at the minimum, wright?..

then, think gradually ajust pressure UP in both LOW and HI pressure relief valves at the preset numbers (about 1200 PSI) should mean that my two pumps are going to bypass to tank at this pressure..and then if I set gradually up only my HI pressure relief valve, means that only this pump will flow to the cylinder above this preset pressure since the low pump is already adjusted and bypassing to tank at 1200 PSI..am I wright?..ajusting the second pump to about 2800 PSI, means that at this pressure my second pump will bypass oil to tank too, while my first pump is still bypassing it..all this have to be done with cylinder extend to the max..it´s should stay there, bypassing oil to tank, and not shut down shop electricalls, or damage a pump, or burn motor, or whatever..

Is this the correct way to set up this reliefs?..i have a 6000 PSi gauge connected to splitter main block valve, so it should be able to measure this easly..

 

[J_J]

Logically, the relief valve in a circuit is designed to protect the pump, and in your 16.5 GPM pump, it has a pump max pressure of 3000 psi, so you would set the relief pressure at 50 to 199 psi below the max.

However in your case, you have to stay within the HP rating of the electric motor.

To protect your electric motor, which is turning a pump , pumping 16.5 GPM, you would set the relief to 2250 psi. That setup will use about 24.1 HP.

Since that pump is running at max, how do you propose to shut it off and switch to the low GPM higher pressure pump?

You are at your limit just using the one 16.5 GPM pump.

If you could switch pumps to only use the 12.7 GPM, and therefore producing more pressure, you would set that relief valve to about 3050 psi. That setup would take about 24.1 HP.

If you could run both pumps with both relief set to 1200 psi, it would require about 25 HP. =18 ton

If you want speed, use the 16.5 pump. = 33 ton

If you want max force, use only the 12.7 GPM pump. = 46 ton

 

[jonix]

the systems does not work like that J.J..my WALVOIL two pump HI LOW unloading valve, must be working in a diferents way that you aare saying, because i measure timings to retract and extend cyl, and it got to work this way:

My two pumps work togheter all the time, with a combined oil of 12,7 + 16,5 GPM..so around 1200 PSI is going to be my pressure relief setting for the 16,5 pump because this pressure is my limit for 29,2 combined GPM, ir should be required 23 HP or so..since above 1200 PSI only the 12,7 GPM pump will work with pressure, it should hang up with 2800 PSI, requiring around 23 HP..

but my problem isn´t the reliefs PSI values..do you think that is a good way to set my reliefs?

 

[J_J]

Your electric motor life time is very well relative to pressure settings.

I may never understand how your system is set up

Maybe it does not work the way I said, but could.

What I would in do in your situation would be to add a solenoid dump valve on each log splitter pump and dump the the flow to tank on pump not required.

You want fast, use the 16.5 GPM pump.

You want high pressure, use the 12.7 GPM pump,

 

[muddstopper]

A little more figuring is needed if you plan to set one relief at 1200psi and the other at 2800psi. For one thing, you still need hp to make the 1200psi with one pump, and then you are going to have to have enough power left over to power the other pump up to 2800psi. Just because the one pump is dumping over relief doesnt meant is isnt consuming hp. you are still pumping 16.5gpm at 1200psi and than adding the 12.7gpm at 2800psi, you need to combine the hp numbers to find total hp needed. 16.5gpm@1200psi=12.8hp, 12.7gpm@2800psi=22.7hp. 12.8hp+22.7hp=35.5hp. I think to make it work, you are going to need to use a pressure switch along with your solenoid valve so that when both pumps are pumping and pressure reaches 1200psi, your 16.5gpm switches to dump to tank mode while the 12.7gpm is building high pressure. You would need to add a check valve to keep pressure from dumping from the hp pump to the low pressure pump and back to tank. With this method, as soon as pressure drops below 1200psi, the solenoid valve would redirect the the low pressure flow back toward the splitter and and speed the cyl to full speed. Right now, I think you will need at least 2 seperate soleniod valves to run your two pumps thru and somehow combine flows between the solenoid valves and the cylinder. Maybe the walvoil valve does that, I just dont know.

I dont know how the Walvoil valve is supposed to work, but it it keeps the high flow low pressure side up to 1200psi as it dumps oil, then you are still going to be way low on hp.

I am finally home and got to watch the videos. I will say the fabrication looks really good. Watching eveything work, I think you just need to concentrate on getting some more hp to your setup. they make them 3phase motors in a lot larger hp. Watching the video. it seems to me that your saw doesnt have the power to cut fast. It boggs if you increase down force, but otherwise seems to be cutting pretty well. Get the hp to make the saw productive and I think your set. Get enough hp to pull that .404 chain setup and let the big dog eat.

 

[jonix]

Don´t need that pressure switch.. :thumbsup:

relief set for all 3 circuits donne..today engineer give us a help..i realize many things..

the twin pumps work togheter.. the relief for the low pressure high flow pump was set @1200 PSI, and at this pressure i have both pumps working on splitter.
As soon as pressure rises, the low pressure high flow pump begins working with no pressure to tank, freeing all available HP to the HIGH pressure pump, that was set @ 2900 PSI..so, got HP for HIGH flow (15 TON @29GPM @1200PSI with 23 HP) and got HP for HIGH pressure (37 TON @12,7GPM @2900PSI with 24 HP)..for set this reliefs we have to disable splitter sensors, and they were set up at max cylinder stroke..

Saw is alot better..we ajust reliefs too, and it is cutting at max pump pressure..next step is try to give some more oil to the F11-10, thinking to change the 8,9 pump for one maybe with 20 GPM, should have HP for saw @1900 PSI, witch means the old one .404 pitch, 6500 feet/min at chain speed, and around 20 HP of power..can´t wait..

well, thank you all for keeping me up with this..it was a great help..!!!:thumbsup:

Soon i will have a video of automatic mode working with better configuration, and i will post it!

 

[muddstopper]

I did a little reading on those high low valves. It seems they work similar to pressure reducing valves in that they do switch flow to tank without running the fluid over reliefs. I still dont completely understand how they work. I did talk to some of the hydraulic folks at work on the phone this morning and they tried to explain it to me, but I think I am going to hit them up to go over it again next time I get back to their shop. This thread has given me an different ideal on how to plumb my processor than I had originally planned. I am also considering going with a variable displacement pump and closed center. I think I can secure one 90 gpm variable displacement pump that will run everything instead of using 3 separate gear pumps.

 

[jonix]

Hi everyone!

Sorry, i promissed you a video long time ago..only now i can post it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNTgKc7n1z0

Since then, i have a few upgrades in the processor, and have lots of broken and bended steel parts..50 TON requeries a very strong structure..I figure it out by the worst way

 

[muddstopper]

what is the big flyswatter looking thing for. I notice the operator has to stick it out towards the log stop on every cut.

 

[jonix]

The photocell that detects the logs lenght cut does not work well with dark colors..and the operator (me) is processing dry eucalyptus, that has been stored outdoors for almost 2 years..It works fine with normal green wood..

 

[muddstopper]

I think your machine is working pretty well. I see you are using the harvester bar and chain. Saw speed still seems a little slow, but it is keeping up with the splitter. A little to much walking back and forth between the operator station and the splitting galley for me. If you dont do anything else to the machine, I think I would concentrate on on making sure the wood fell into the splitter straight so you dont have to keep straighting out wood to be split. That move alone would probably increase output by a factor of 2.

 

[Wild Bill the 2nd]

I agree, it looks to be working well. Your saw looks to be faster than ours which has 22hp running it. Unfortunately, we can stall out our saw fairly easily. I I only remember you stalling the saw once.

I think it would be great to have wood that drops into the splitter trough correctly each time. It looked like it dropped straight at least 3/4 of the time. Unfortunately the shape of some pieces make them problematic. I have seen a few commercially produced offset processors similar to yours in operation and they all have that issue. I think the offset design has a better percentage than an inline setup (at least ours) where the wood drops straight down into the splitter.

Set up a video camera to record an hour or so of running and then review all of the pieces that don't drop straight. Record the cause of each misaligned piece. If you find that logs often hit something or there is something that can be re-engineered to provide better results then do it. Some of it you just need to live with.

What I would do is move the controls to the other side of the machine right next to the splitter. Where they are now makes it easy to work with getting logs onto the infeed section but I would think you have to deal with log placement in the splitter a lot more often than loading logs. Or since you have electrical controls for running the machine put a second set of controls for the most needed functions by the splitter so that it can be run from either location.

 

[Wild Bill the 2nd]

Jonix, What does the cylinder at the end of the log advance do for you? Does it sense the log or act as a log stop for you? I see many processors out there with them but have never figured it out. Does it help to keep the log straight after it is cut? I'm sure I will feel like an idiot for asking once I receive the answer, but, I am prepared for that.

 

[muddstopper]

Wild bill, I am going to answer your question about the cyl. I am pretty sure it is there to stop the log and make sure each cut is the same length. It doesnt hold the log in place while it is being cut. If you noticed, once the log is in place and the saw starts to cut, that cyl retracts out of the way so it doesnt interfer with the round falling into the splitting trough.

 

[Wild Bill the 2nd]

I was thinking he had the sensor for that but as he mentioned the sensor is having issues on dark woods.
I saw the cylinder retract but didn't know if it was still meant to guide the log if it got crooked.

Makes sense. I don't think we need anything that complex on ours. A hanging rod or chain works for us. Thanks

 

[muddstopper]

I have seen those stops on a lot of processors. I guess if your trying for automation and max production, they would take the guess work out of log placement. Like you, I will probably go with a hanging rod or chain.

I asked a question about your saw motor in your thread.

 

[jonix]

Yes, it is working nice..I am thinking on buying someking of joystick control in order to work on the side of the splitter too, i agree, to much walking back and forth for the operator..with nice big round and heavy wood, 99% of the logs drops straight into the splitter chamber..the most commom problems are small diameters, knocks, and acummulated wood trash..eucalyptus make lots of waste bark, and definitly, thats the number one cause for this problem..

The saw is keeping up with the splitter when it is workingwith 10/12 inches diameters..when cutting big logs the splitter wait to much..i figure out that a 3/8 pitch needs less pressure to do the work in the same time..I'm working with a 3300 PSI relief on the saw and 150 PSI on the saw cylinder..the 3/8 pitch only needs 2200 PSI to work with this configuration, the .404 shtil RMHS chain stalls once on a while ..one of this days i am gonna try the Oregon 18H chain..has a .404 pitch, but is less "large" than this stilh chain I am working with..The chain speed is poor, about 3000 ft/min..that what I have, for now..

Bill, the cylinder at the end of the log advance is to secure the correct cut lenght..even so, the machine needs to "know" when the log is there, that why there is a photocell in the top ot the cut chamber..this photocell tells the log infeed movement to stop..the real existing reason for that cylinder, is that the photocell have delay times, and i need same lenght wood for bagging..once in a while that cylinder helps straithing logs in the infeed, since the infeed still running 1 or 2 seconds after the logs hit the cylinder stopper, but i don´t thing there is the point..

 

[muddstopper]

I did notice the larger rounds seemed to fall a little better than the smaller stuff. Got a side market for you, might not pay off, but its just a suggestion. I too noticed all the loose bark. What if you installed a debarker to strip the logs of bark before it goes on the processor. Bark mulch is a pretty big market around here. You strip the bark, take your other splitter scraps, and run it all thru a chipper to reduce size, load it on a trailer and sell it for landscape mulch. That would certainly get rid of a bunch of your trash, and maybe put a few coins in your pocket. You will have to run the numbers to see if it would pay for itself.