Tier 4

/ Tier 4 #1  

ohiodon74

New member
Joined
Oct 11, 2012
Messages
11
Location
Willard, Ohio
Tractor
Ford 1953 NAA
What do I need to know about tier 4. Will this make problem with the new tractor model? What problems will it cause the new sub compact and compact tractor buyers? I am looking at buying a new tractor just want imput on the new rules.

Thanks
 
/ Tier 4 #2  
Tier 4 final is the last step in reducing NOx levels in offroad diesel engines. Generally with compacts or sub-compacts this will be achieved using and EGR, DPF or a combination of both. Larger higher HP machines can use Urea, DPF, EGR, SCR or a combination of each technology to achieve the desired level.

Can it cause a problem, sure, but anything mechanical can. This technology has been evolving for sometime now in Tier 3 and Tier 4a interim emissions levels leading up to the final standard. Personally, since I've been in the industry for a while, I would not be too concerned about buying a tractor with 4B emissions equipment.
 
/ Tier 4 #3  
What problems will it cause the new sub compact and compact tractor
buyers?

First, it only impacts new tractors above 30hp. I expect the major impact to be initial cost.

Here is the new Kubota B3350. With this new CUT, you get electronic FI control and a cool-looking
stainless steel exhaust system. You can see the 2 sensors on this one, used to monitor
the Diesel particulate filter/burner. The Kubota factory guy says you should not need to service
it for 2000-3000 hours, but then it will cost over $500 to do so. No urea system on this one.
 

Attachments

  • B3350.jpg
    B3350.jpg
    119 KB · Views: 633
/ Tier 4 #4  
I wouldn't be afraid of a new one, until it comes time to replace the DPF. BUT I'm guessing they'll take a huge hit in resale value about the time they're due a new DPF..
 
/ Tier 4 #5  
FWIW, a couple of the dealers I was just working with on my deal said $3-4k difference is the biggest thing.
The rest is just to please the current PTB.

As if that could ever be accomplished.:mad: d:^) Schneeks..
 
/ Tier 4 #6  
All the dealers say it's no big deal, but that's because they're in the business of selling tractors if you ask me. If you happen to run across a dealer who still has a Tier 3 on the lot, they'll give you the song and dance about how great that tractor is because it's the last of the Tier 3 before 4 or 4 interim hit.

In my mind, the DPF is the key here. Some can be baked out a few times to clean them, eventually though, they will need to be replaced. I talked with a Kubota dealer who said that a replacement DPF on an 80 - 90 hp machine was around $3,700 in parts alone. Real world experience is still to be determined on what effect it has on longevity or fuel economy. I know what the DPF did to the fuel economy of the pick up truck market when it hit in 2007. Adding urea has gotten it better, but that's still fairly new too.
 
/ Tier 4 #7  
All the dealers say it's no big deal, but that's because they're in the business of selling tractors if you ask me. If you happen to run across a dealer who still has a Tier 3 on the lot, they'll give you the song and dance about how great that tractor is because it's the last of the Tier 3 before 4 or 4 interim hit.

In my mind, the DPF is the key here. Some can be baked out a few times to clean them, eventually though, they will need to be replaced. I talked with a Kubota dealer who said that a replacement DPF on an 80 - 90 hp machine was around $3,700 in parts alone. Real world experience is still to be determined on what effect it has on longevity or fuel economy. I know what the DPF did to the fuel economy of the pick up truck market when it hit in 2007. Adding urea has gotten it better, but that's still fairly new too.


This may be, I think it's more the fact that the new Tier 4 machines allow them to raise prices on new and used tier 3 units. Thats what I'm hoping for when I sell my B2620 in a few weeks.
 
/ Tier 4 #8  
This may be, I think it's more the fact that the new Tier 4 machines allow them to raise prices on new and used tier 3 units. Thats what I'm hoping for when I sell my B2620 in a few weeks.

Just be sure to word your add correctly. True or not, there are a certain number of folks out there, myself included, that are just not ready to invest in Tier 4 technology at the present time.
 
/ Tier 4 #9  
I will put in my 1 cent's worth, one cent because I don't own one. From all that I have read here on the threads of the early adopters that actually own Tier 4 Final machines, the owners generally like them and have not reported any negatives to speak of. Most have reported less smell, less noise, and as good or better fuel consumption figures. These are just my impressions of course, but I am reporting what I have read. Of course the hole in the wallet is not a good thing, and I don't think anyone appreciated that, but the tractors seem to be working well. As for how much it is going to cost in 2000 to 3000 hours, I don't know, but I am sure it will be somewhat expensive.

Those of you that know my political leanings know that I am not a huge fan of the EPA and new Federal regulations, but these regs do not seem to be the end of tractoring as we know it. By the way as I understand it, tractors must be over 25 horsepower to be affected by Tier 4 final rules.
 
/ Tier 4 #10  
it is a big deal. it is just a old scam on a new market. the diesel truck market went through this step already and it was a disaster. now they bring tractors to this same step when the market is already past it. any off road equipment, tractor trailers, and now pickups use urea injection exclusively. only 1 or 2 manufacturers are still using dpf and they are being forced into using other brands patents. international is one of them. big trucks have ben using this regularly for half of the better part of a decade. the reason why they are doing this is because of the over stock of parts for diesel pickups that are already been to the car crusher that were equipped with tier 4 style equipment. now they get to bill someone else for the mess the epa forced them into. rant end
 
/ Tier 4 #11  
Tier 4 final is the last step in reducing NOx levels in offroad diesel engines. .

The final step for now. With our current dictator in the white house he can with the stroke of a pen make any changes he wants to.

IMHO there are going to be issues, just like there always are issues. Remember the first cars with unleaded fuels an destroying heads, and melting exhausts.

In the end it will do one thing for sure....make your wallet lighter, and with china building more and more, all these changes we make to better the environment is a one step forward, four steps back.
 
/ Tier 4 #12  
I am a sales rep for Case and Case IH. Tier 4 is something that is here to stay, but not something that would sway my decision. Tier 4 engines actually perform better than Tier 3 models. Tier 3 models had to be de-rated to keep EGT's in check. With Tier 4, the hotter the engine burns the better. The chambers on the EGR systems often reach 1000*, so the hotter the better.

In our skid steers, the system goes through an auto regen every 10hrs. You dont notice it, and in fact I tell customers to run harder when that happens. Every 1000-1200hrs it needs to do a 20min long manual regen, and it lets you know a few hours before hand.

Its also a very simple system, pretty much you get a really cool stainless exhaust and a few plugs on the exhaust.

Biggest downfall I see, every 3000-5000hrs the canister needs to be replaced. Anywhere from $800-$2000 depending on the machine.
 
/ Tier 4 #13  
it is a big deal. it is just a old scam on a new market. the diesel truck market went through this step already and it was a disaster. now they bring tractors to this same step when the market is already past it. any off road equipment, tractor trailers, and now pickups use urea injection exclusively. only 1 or 2 manufacturers are still using dpf and they are being forced into using other brands patents. international is one of them. big trucks have ben using this regularly for half of the better part of a decade. the reason why they are doing this is because of the over stock of parts for diesel pickups that are already been to the car crusher that were equipped with tier 4 style equipment. now they get to bill someone else for the mess the epa forced them into. rant end

I'm sorry, but this is not correct. Urea injection is used by most high hp trucks and tractors, but there is only one that is "exclusively" using Urea injection as the only method of achieving 4 Final emissions. Fiat Power Train and Iveco hold the patents on Urea only technology(SCR Only), meaning Case IH tractors are the only ones using the SCR only system. Even then it's only being used in high HP tractors. Deere, Agco, Valtra and the like are all using Urea in their systems, but with the addition of EGR and/or DPF.
 
/ Tier 4 #14  
Case IH tractors are the only ones using the SCR only system. Even then it's only being used in high HP tractors. Deere, Agco, Valtra and the like are all using Urea in their systems, but with the addition of EGR and/or DPF.

Correct, gives me an edge when I go to a demo.
 
/ Tier 4 #15  
I'm just glad I'm old enough that I don't need this trash but I sure feel bad that my generation let this happen.
 
/ Tier 4 #16  
Biggest downfall I see, every 3000-5000hrs the canister needs to be replaced. Anywhere from $800-$2000 depending on the machine.

Good info. The question is, what does 1 or 2k become a few years from now for those of us not putting 2,000 hrs / year on a machine? A couple of grand in repairs every few thousand hours is something that the old timers wouldn't consider a good, reliable tractor.

Like you said though, Tier IV is here to stay in the new market. But it also seems to be driving up the used market.
 
/ Tier 4 #17  
Good info. The question is, what does 1 or 2k become a few years from now for those of us not putting 2,000 hrs / year on a machine? A couple of grand in repairs every few thousand hours is something that the old timers wouldn't consider a good, reliable tractor.

Like you said though, Tier IV is here to stay in the new market. But it also seems to be driving up the used market.

The frequency of which you replace cartridges depends on how you use the machine. The Case product rep was in town today, and when I asked him the same question, he said that they have machines on test circuits with nearly 5000hrs on them and havent changed the canister yet.
 
/ Tier 4 #18  
I'm sorry, but this is not correct. Urea injection is used by most high hp trucks and tractors, but there is only one that is "exclusively" using Urea injection as the only method of achieving 4 Final emissions. Fiat Power Train and Iveco hold the patents on Urea only technology(SCR Only), meaning Case IH tractors are the only ones using the SCR only system. Even then it's only being used in high HP tractors. Deere, Agco, Valtra and the like are all using Urea in their systems, but with the addition of EGR and/or DPF.

Have you seen Massey? Their high hp tractors were tier 4 compliant starting with the 8600 series in 2008. Massey is now on its third generation of SCR tech.

Video highlights their 2nd generation.


Since AGCO also owns Challenger, Challenger uses the same tech. All manufactured here in Minnesota for North American markets. =)
 
/ Tier 4 #19  
As the tiers progressed there has been learning. Of course I see the remarks that the current emissions regs are the responsibility of the current administration while in truth they were set in 2004 with Republican controlled White House, Senate, and House of Representatives. Conclusion - people want clean air no matter what party. They do jot want the US to be another China with people wearing masks and traffic being shut down completely on the high pollution days. Black smoke out of the exhaust is carbon from unburied fuel. Wouldn't it be better to burn all the fuel making more efficient engines? Cars went through their learning cycle but today's cars eat the old timers alive when it comes to fuel economy and engine life. Jets used to leave a trail of smoke behind when they took off. They had to clean up their act. Cooled EGR, a big energy waster? When John Deere came out with it on their 8000 series tractors they set new standards for low fuel consumption per unit power meaning if you do your design work, you get your engine right. Several engine manufacturers are now selling their engines as meeting tier 4 final with no treatments, just efficient engine design. Are they right? Time will tell. I read articles saying defeating cooled EGR (plenty of kits for truck engines) will make your engine run cooler. It depends on which part of your engine. Exhaust gas is cooled by the engine coolant which is controlled by the thermostat. If the design is done right, coolant temperature will remain the thermostat temperature until you reach the limit of the cooling capability. The internal engine parts, however, see different temperatures which don't show up on any gauge. Increase the oxygen in the cylinder, more fuel can be burned and components sensitive to combustion chamber temperature like the valves and head gasket may fail earlier depending on the component design. When I worked for a Case we switched from Navistar to Case-Cummins (Consolidated Diesel Company) engines. The original design had a cast iron insert in the aluminum pistons to prevent the high combustion temperatures from eating away the top edge of the piston. Somebody's cost reduction idea was to eliminate this insert on combine engines because they don't see the steady high load of a tractor. They didn't ask the combine guys who knew the opposite was true. Cost Case $11 million dollars to replace the pistons on the affected engines, all to save $6 per piston. Same us true of all new engine designs - engineers think they can design a lower cost engine than the other guy and sometimes it blows up in their face. One major change on a lot of CUT's is a switch from indirect to direct injection. Indirect allowed lower injection pressures but is inefficient. Now most have the efficient direct injection, many with common rail injection systems which break up the fuel droplets allowing them to burn more efficiently. Less unburied fuel out of the exhaust. I looked at Kubota's engine specs and the new L6060 engine is 20% more efficient than the L5740 it replaces. Many companies are reducing engine cost by replacing 6 cylinder engines with 4s, 4 cylinder engines with 3's. Can I guarantee your Tier 4 engine won't have problems? No way - they are designed and built by humans who are flawed. Would I buy a Tier 4? In a heartbeat. I have an 2011 L5740 for which I expected top dollar based on people's statements here on TBN so I could sell mine at the premium price and get a L6060 which Kubota would have to discount to move. Did it happen? Dream on. My L5740 value has plunged because there is an upgraded model available and the L6060 gets the same dealer discount I got on the L5740. So if you really want an older L5740 to get away from the DPF, I can sell you one 3 years old with only a little over 600 hours for the visit of a L6060 and you won't have to worry about a DPF.
 
/ Tier 4 #20  
I am a sales rep for Case and Case IH. Tier 4 is something that is here to stay, but not something that would sway my decision. Tier 4 engines actually perform better than Tier 3 models. Tier 3 models had to be de-rated to keep EGT's in check. With Tier 4, the hotter the engine burns the better. The chambers on the EGR systems often reach 1000*, so the hotter the better. In our skid steers, the system goes through an auto regen every 10hrs. You dont notice it, and in fact I tell customers to run harder when that happens. Every 1000-1200hrs it needs to do a 20min long manual regen, and it lets you know a few hours before hand. Its also a very simple system, pretty much you get a really cool stainless exhaust and a few plugs on the exhaust. Biggest downfall I see, every 3000-5000hrs the canister needs to be replaced. Anywhere from $800-$2000 depending on the machine.

Thanks for the info.

Did the Case 75c models go to tier 4 for the '14 model year? The NH site still shows the T4.75 as tier 3, and correct me if I'm wrong, but they are identical to each other aside from a couple visual changes right?

Also, if it is tier 4, does it have the SCR only as well? (I don't even know what that means)

People really blew the whole "tier 4" thing way out of proportion. It almost convinced me to buy a 75C last year from Messicks, but I wasn't financially ready. Thank god I didn't jump on it for fear of the tier 4. It may actually make the tractors better.

As a weekend warrior who puts 100 hrs a year on my tractor, I could care less what I need to do after 3000 hrs of use. Chances are good I'll never see that much.
 

Marketplace Items

UNUSED KJ 23'X22' DBL GARAGE METAL SHED (A62131)
UNUSED KJ 23'X22'...
2020 Globe Trailer GTDD30236 36ft. 75yd. T/A End Dump Trailer (A61568)
2020 Globe Trailer...
JOHN DEERE 6140M TRACTOR (A62130)
JOHN DEERE 6140M...
2025 HT360W Mini Stand-On Track Loader Skid Steer (A61567)
2025 HT360W Mini...
2025 Pabreak 80in. Bucket Skid Steer Attachment (A61567)
2025 Pabreak 80in...
2016 Land Rover AWD SUV (A61569)
2016 Land Rover...
 
Top