Drilling is easy here, sand and some clay. I'm not sure about where tkappler is but most of NJ has abundant water. We are actually going to pump out of our drinking water well and return the water to a pond. We had planned on a return well, but the geo contractor recommended the pond. For whatever reason geo seems to carry a premium in NJ, and we don;t have any local or state incentives. Just the federal tax credit. Maybe it is just that better, more conscientious contractors are the only ones who do geo and they charge a premium for their services. I didn't even get a quote for air source or anything else, we have no gas service, so it seemed like a necessity to me...
Timber frame owner builder in NJ
- Thread starter emanaresi
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tkappeler
Platinum Member
We considered geo. Unfortunately, the few reputable contractors either were so swamped as to not be able to get back to us in time or didn't care for the business. Lack of incentives certainly did make us not push too hard. No natural gas here and ended up with a 96% efficient propane, dual speed forced hot air furnace.
You will love how little your system will run with as tight as your envelope is. Enjoy!
BitChin1
Silver Member
I would suggest you at least get quote for air source for comparison - ducting, electrical, your well etc are all the same - install for the Geo is similar but actually more simple than the Air source (no outside unit, piping to outside etc - they do need to adjust it, but ...)
Anyway my contractor let me see detail cost of equipment etc - it was within $800 of equivalent Air source unit, air handler etc. After credits much less expensive. We also don't have any local incentives but 30% fed was nice.
my only point is this is a significant expense and one you want to minimize - giving your tax credit to dealer is not a good thing
BitChin1
Silver Member
Yes - that is what I am saying.
I had several installers quote the same exact system/installation for Geo system, air source HP, and a couple also provided an option for propane furnace.
I also asked for detailed quote with equipment price and install broken out - of 5 contractor 3 would not provide this detail - the two that did showed me that the geo equipment was ~ $800 higher in price than the air source HP - other costs (air filter, HRV, duct work etc was same price)
1 of these contractors had a geo setup fee of $1800 for proper setup and adjustment etc - he could not tell me what was actually going to be done.
The 5th contractor (the one I used) gave me a discount to make either option the SAME price - his reasoning was the geo was "so simple" to install and because I was also buying 3 mini-split units on same order he could do this - his price was also similar but lower than the others for the air source option.
In this case I knew this person so could personally discern that I was not getting a corner cutting quote.
I also knew two of the other contractors and both told me that Geo systems were new and "considered" premium and their installers took longer to install because they only did a few each year. the 3 that did not break out the details had quotes for Geo option vs teh air source option that ranged 20-30% higher (hmm fed tax credit was 30%?)
I don't think they are "screwing" you, business practice is to get highest value for your service the market will bear - my only point is that without getting several quotes including air source option you might not be getting your best price point.
Ah, I see. My contractor has a very good reputation and comes highly recommended by someone I trust fully. He is also a very shrewd business man. I know what you are saying is good business practice, but to be honest, on this project, with me as lead, I would rather work with someone I know I can trust and I know I can work with then get the VERY best deal. Also, his price was lower than I had anticipated, so that is nice too.
BitChin1
Silver Member
I agree with your points and in my case the person I went with I too had similar relationship - probably would have used him even if he had the higher price.
Just be sure to spend some extra cycles asking questions and pointing out design aspects of your project - you are building something that is not normal (in terms of well insulated tight design) - my HVAC guy started with default design point. Had I not asked questions and pushed on the size of unit I would have ended up with a unit that heated and cooled my house just fine, although maybe not as efficient as what I now have, and at a cost ~50% higher. He was not trying to take advantage of me - it was just using his standard practice and he is very busy - looking at a blueprint does not allow him to understand unique design elements and standard question set (R-values for walls, ceiling, etc do not cover this).
I love the design elements of your fireplace by the way - my wife and I opted not for an interior fireplace but are adding an outdoor area that will have a large fireplace with cooking oven
Hope to see pics of your project coming here soon
It sounds like we are only days from receiving approved building permits! I am very excited. I am trying to nail down an excavator and concrete contractor before the weekend, then we can start clearing trees as soon as the weather warms up!
Does anyone have input regarding basement insulation? I am planning on putting foam boards under the slab. I think I will use 2" EPS foam under the slab. I need to insulate the basement walls but do not plan on finishing the basement until a later date. I could glue rigid eps foam to the walls as insulation but it would need to be finished with drywall as a thermal barrier. But if I have to drywall it, thenI would need to plumb and run electric, or have to rip it out later to finish the basement. Another option is spray foam, but I think it has the same requirements... I would like to insulate it now, because we will finish it in the future, but it seems there isn't much allowance for this. Any ideas?
Does anyone have input regarding basement insulation? I am planning on putting foam boards under the slab. I think I will use 2" EPS foam under the slab. I need to insulate the basement walls but do not plan on finishing the basement until a later date. I could glue rigid eps foam to the walls as insulation but it would need to be finished with drywall as a thermal barrier. But if I have to drywall it, thenI would need to plumb and run electric, or have to rip it out later to finish the basement. Another option is spray foam, but I think it has the same requirements... I would like to insulate it now, because we will finish it in the future, but it seems there isn't much allowance for this. Any ideas?
farmer2009
Elite Member
Talk to your insulation contractor. Seems like he should be able to spray foam it then put a thin layer of fire retardent spray over it. I seen it done once on TV. Maybe Mike Holmes.
tkappeler
Platinum Member
I know when we built, NJ code required R10 on the basement walls but there was a change coming to raise the requirement to R12.5 or something like that. I was told that the new requirements and other code changes were delayed in 2013 because of Sandy. Not sure if the new ones are in place now or not. The most common technique I have seen are the insulation blankets similar to these. If you decide to finish the basement, you can build a wall inside this one to keep the blanket in place and easy electrical and plumbing routing.
One other option is ICFs as shown here
Thanks, tom. the insulation blankets are not an option in our basement, I don't think they should ever be installed below grade...
We did get quotes on ICFs early in the process and the price was very high! Also, ICFs actually need to be covered in a thermal barrier as well, if the inspector follows the code book, at least.
We did get quotes on ICFs early in the process and the price was very high! Also, ICFs actually need to be covered in a thermal barrier as well, if the inspector follows the code book, at least.
We framed the basement then sprayed 2" of closed cell. It gives about an R13.5 and leaves room for electrical later. The closed cell also has a fire retardent built in. You can't get it to burn with a lighter. It will self extinguish. You would have to verify it meets code for NJ.
The only quote I have gotten so far for spray foam is $1.10/sq ft/in for closed cell they also suggested a spray on ignition barrier ($.85/sq ft!). I am waiting for a call fromt he inspector to see what he will accept. I can buy rigid foam WAY cheaper and glue it to the walls myself... Just need to figure out the best route here.
BitChin1
Silver Member
Wow - congrats:cool2:
As for basement foam look at foil faced polyiso - here they allow it to be exposed but EPS/XPS need covered -
Also does code there require all exterior walls to be insulated?
Last question is do you have the plan for the basement finalized? If so you could do rough-in work for the exterior walls now and actually finish later - in our case we did this for a couple of rooms and extra cost was very minimal and significantly less than having the subs come back later.
Ranger Rick
Gold Member
Maybe you could use the superior wall system. Then you would have a precast basement wall that comes insulated.
Superior Walls / Products
I have read other threads where others have used it.
Superior Walls / Products
I have read other threads where others have used it.
We do have the basement plans pretty well nailed down. I don't think they need to be insulated except above grade they do. I am am going to look into the polyiso a little more. I think the spray foam is just too expensive...
I considered superior walls early in the process, they are neat, just don't fit my needs on this project.
I considered superior walls early in the process, they are neat, just don't fit my needs on this project.
tkappeler
Platinum Member
I think the codes require you to insulate the entire basement walls. Most states have adopted some level of the International Energy Conservation Code. For NJ, new construction must meet 2006 standards. Did you have to run a ResCheck to verify conformance to the code? If so, you pretty much cannot pass without insulating the basement walls.
I ran the ResCheck and if I left just one basement wall uninsulated, I failed and I R26 in walls and R45 in ceilings, very high efficiency windows, etc.
Not to open a can of worms, but you may want to confirm this with the township. I would hate for you to get all rough ins complete and ready to button up and have the insulation inspection fail because it's not done and then it could be a pain to retrofit. Just my :2cents:
