A timber frame cabin memoir

[caver]

The upper back and upper sides are not framed in yet. That rests on the loft floor. You can see that in the video.

 

[caver]

An insulation guy emailed me a bid after a few weeks. I assumed he had more pressing issues. The prices are approximate, $5900 walls, rim joists and one basement wall. I didn't specify that basement wall so would save a few bucks probably when I talk to him in the near future. This is closed cell 2" spray foam.

For $4300 more it would be a open cell product 5" same areas as discussed before.

If I don't go spray foam the other option would be self install rock wool. I hate fiberglass insulation.

I've only nailed down a few decks boards since winterizing my camper in early November. Staying in a motel is a pain but I can get a clean simple basic room off season for about 60-65$

 

[Carl_NH]

Does closed cell price include the roof @ 2" too? If so that's a great price then you can add supplement with rockwool.

I really like rockwool the more I work with it but getting the shell sealed up with 2" closed cell is key for structural integrity and eliminating air infiltration.

 

[dstig1]

Don't even think of open cell foam. It is vapor permeable and will cause you all sorts of moisture and eventually rot issues. It is only useful in certain situations but is tempting to a lot of people as it is a lot cheaper than closed cell since it expands a ton vs a little for closed cell. So when you say more $ for open cell, I am rather confused...

 

[ponytug]

@caver We just added some rock (mineral) wool, and I like it a lot better than fiberglass, both in terms of performance and working with it. It isn't nearly as itchy.

It comes in several densities; we used the highest density version to be able to nail it to one wall, and then attached furring strips to allow the second wall surface not to be highly thermal bridged to the first wall.

+1 on using closed cell foam. I'd never use open cell foam for all of the reasons that @dstig1 wrote.

All the best,

Peter

 

[caver]

Does closed cell price include the roof @ 2" too? If so that's a great price then you can add supplement with rockwool.

I really like rockwool the more I work with it but getting the shell sealed up with 2" closed cell is key for structural integrity and eliminating air infiltration.

Roof is insulated. It is built with what Legacy calls nail base panels. These are R39. I did some research last night and also found that closed cell is the way to go. Unless he made a mistake he quoted the closed cell way cheaper. I'll know more when I talk to him soon.

 

[EddieWalker]

In my opinion, open cell foam should be illegal in all homes and buildings. The only place it's any good is around window and door frames. From what I've read, it's already been banned in some European countries.

 

[caver]

He said the 2" closed cell is about R14 but in his experience it's almost double that due to the tight seal. He has open cell in his home but he said he runs HVAC year round and runs a dehumidifier in the basement. In my situation where I might leave for a month or so the closed cell is how he would go. I told him closed cell is how I would like to go and maybe I can get him scheduled closer to the summer. Like one of you suggested I could always go with a layer of rock wool in front of the spray foam.

 

[dstig1]

For our vaulted great room space, the roof is 14" I-joists spanning from the outer walls to the massive center glulam beam. I did this as a hot roof (cue the outrage...) and as a result had the insulators spray 4" of closed cell foam to meet the standard for avoiding condensing on the roof sheathing for our climate. I then had them staple up netting and do the remainder of the fill in dense packed cellulose insulation. My walls are SIPs so no need there, but it is something you could consider.

The additional benefit your contractor is citing about closed cell foam is the air sealing, which is also critical, but not directly related to insulation R-value. They are related but separate items.

Here is a photo of the ceiling with foam complete and the netting stapled up on one side.

And here it is with the ceiling filled with the cellulose. Note the bulging netting

 

[civilian]

So dstig1, how did you deal with the bulge? Jon

 

[dstig1]

It's just gravity. Drywall held it flat quite fine.

 

[caver]

I think I said earlier there was really no work on the place since those last guys left in early Nov.
I've been looking into propane tanks....rental VS own. I see used "refurbished" 500 gallon units within a 2 hour drive for $1800-2500. Online there's places out there much farther away and often it appears the website has been hacked or not working ...or just too far away (California). Now I just got off the phone with a well known gas supplier Ferrell. She said they would sell me a new tank delivered for $3600. She stated they DO NOT sell used tanks. I was also looking into the gas supply hose and having second thoughts on a tankless water heater. My gas usage will be stove, dryer, furnace and water heater. I'm not sure why I got on this propane kick but it is something that has to occur before I can have it livable. With warmer temps I will have my camper over there and be able to stay for several days. I have also seriously considered hiring a couple carpenters for 1-3 days. Putting down that loft floor is rough on fat-boys knees. My biggest to-do items are run electric which either means fixing all the leaks on my backhoe or renting a mini ex for a week. Why a week? Cause I have found anything beyond 2 days with most rental yards you are money ahead on doing a week and then not so rushed either. My other list item is finishing that %^&*ing loft floor.

PS, I went back through Breakheartorchard's old postings as I recalled he went though the same thing on a propane tank.

 

[ponytug]

For that price difference, I don't think it really matters much. Ferrell might ding you for an inspection and connection fee if the used tank isn't theirs, but beyond that, it is probably close to a wash. (With the cost of fuel driving 4 hours is what $50-100 in fuel?)

I would consider where to put the tank based on ease of refueling, and getting it away from the house in a low flammability area.

Good luck on the floors.

All the best,

Peter

 

[Rustyiron]

What's wrong with heating oil?
275g tank is 75% less and you don't have;
1 A contract.
2 You can carry as many 5 gallon cans to fill it as you like, when you like.
3 Many more btu's per gallon with fuel oil. (heating oil)
4 you can shop prices for the best price at any time.

You can do all of your listed heating and hot water, I'm not certain about a clothes dryer but it's hard to beat a clothesline.

 

[caver]

I'm not aware of anyone in this area that uses heating oil. I had to work on heating oil furnaces while in Scotland. They were a US product that came with the prefab US style housing the Navy put in a long time ago. I hated working on those things.

 

[dstig1]

Yeah heating oil is pretty rare outside the Northeast US for households. I have a friend that has a small cabin that uses it as they bought it from the estate of the little old lady that lived there for 1000 years, who they knew. It is getting hard to find suppliers. I think he said there is only one now. There is natural gas running past the house, so when the oil furnace dies, he will run gas and convert.

This is the only person I have heard of using heating oil. I'm sure there are others, but they are rare and mostly being replaced with nat gas or propane when they need major work.

 

[ponytug]

What's wrong with heating oil?
275g tank is 75% less and you don't have;
1 A contract.
2 You can carry as many 5 gallon cans to fill it as you like, when you like.
3 Many more btu's per gallon with fuel oil. (heating oil)
4 you can shop prices for the best price at any time.

You can do all of your listed heating and hot water, I'm not certain about a clothes dryer but it's hard to beat a clothesline.

Heating oil is almost exclusively a northeast item when it comes to home use.

All the best, Peter

 

[Rustyiron]

It's the same stuff as "off road diesel" so it should be available just about anywhere.
It's pretty nice to have 38, 000,000 btu's in a single tank out behind the house. That's 138,690 btu/gallon in a standard 275 gallon tank.
Any propane dealer I've ever dealt with are.., well I can't use those words here. Maybe it's regional?

 

[caver]

I once tried to buy off road diesel and he said I need an ag exemption. He let it go as their computer went down. I looked into it and there are guidelines as to what qualifies as ag. It's an exemption form you have to fill out. The difference in cost was very small. A guy at work was playing hobby farmer for a couple of years until the state sent him a letter. I think he bought and sold some goats to qualify. His acreage is like mine....you couldn't raise hell with a half barrel of whiskey. In that case you sell livestock or timber.

Back on topic my primary heat will be a woodstove. The propane furnace is for when I'm away or too lazy to fire the stove up.

 

[ponytug]

Depending on electricity rates, a back up heat pump might be viable as well.

For the curious, here are the primary heating sources put on a map;

EDIT: @dstig1 pointed out that I was missing URL. Here's the original;

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/interactive/2023/home-electrification-heat-pumps-gas-furnace

Sorry for the omission.

Good luck!

All the best,

Peter