Power & Utility Questions

[Superduper]

Hi Everyone.

Got a couple questions related to establishing new service. I am in the process of buying a home. Very rural area. As I've lived my entire life in relatively urban and suburban areas, this is new to me. The home is new, no service yet. Still needs to be completed which I will need to do.

Hoping some of you with some experience can enlighten me as to what to expect.

(1) Home needs electrical service. Power pole looks like approx 100 feet from home. I am thinking that I will need to install a meterbox and maybe 2-0 cable (4-conductors) in schedule 80 conduit underground to the pole. Can anyone confirm if this is about right? Anyone know if I should run the conduit right up to the pole itself with a 90? How far up should I terminate the conduit? How much pigtail is usually left over for the power company to complete the hookup? One last thing... if the conduit points straight up, uncapped... will it fill up with water?

(2) Same with water meter. Do I pick a spot or will the water company determine where they will install a meter and I connect from there?

(3) No natural gas, from what I understand. So I guess I will need to install some form of Propane tank. Question is (a) what size tank is typical for a residential home (4br, 2200 sq ft) and (b) is that something we install ourselves or does the tank seller typically install them and (c) what is typical ball park cost for these tanks and (4) I know that "it depends upon use..." but for a typical home, how long does a tankful usually go between fillups? I see propane here offered at $4 gallon but you need to bring in the portable tank. Obviously, that is not an option so I presume local propane service will deliver the propane and hopefully cheaper than $4/gal. Right now, I have no clue or expectation.

Thanks in advance.

 

[1fastbob]

Rules regarding who does what vary from state to state. Here in Kansas where I live the rural power company installed the pole transformer and meter. I was responsible from meter to house. I ran 2" grey pvc down the pole from the meter and underground to my 3 disconnect boxes. I used 4/0 copper (2 conductors and 1 ground). I then went into the bottom of my main 200 amp. disconnect to the house and split the feed to 2- 100 amp disconnects (1 for the garage and 1 for the new room addition). We are all electric running a geothermal heatpump for heat and cooling and a woodstove as backup heat.

I have a water well so I can't help you on the water meter.

I would recommend a 1000 gal. propane tank. It's better to go too big rather than too small. It does not have to be completely filled. Propane here is around $2.00 to $2.50 if I remember correctly.

 

[1fastbob]

OOOOPS, double post.

 

[dave1949]

Since you have zero dollars invested in electrical service at this point, it would be a great time to consider solar power.

If you are all new to this, I would call an electrician to install the service if you go that way. Do you want to have a backup generator now or someday?

Have you considered alternatives to propane, like a heat pump? Call a few local propane suppliers and get quotes on their current prices, then you will be making informed choices. Propane tanks are not cheap to buy, the advantage to owning your own is the ability to buy from the lowest price supplier. If you use a tank provided by your propane dealer, you are locked into buying propane from that dealer only.

 

[Superduper]

Dave1949, thanks for that information..... if I choose to lease the tank/equipment, will there be a monthly rental charge or initial acquisition cost for the tank, or is it basically a minimum subscription length type of relationship and I just buy the propane? I can install the electrical... I rewired and installed new service to my current home in CA where building codes are ridiculously tough, so I feel comfortable to do this. Yes, I might get a backup generator depending upon how reliable the service is. I don't want to do solar for a few reasons. #1, metal roof with roof trusses. I suspect high winds is common in the area.... #2, cost. I need to go as cheaply as possible for the time being.

1fastbob... I'm actually buying in Kansas.... in Vassar, actually, near the lake. Are you sure you only used 2 conductors? Seems like you would be missing neutral (2-hot, 1-neutral, 1-ground). Also, is there a reason you used 4/0? That's pretty thick and with the cost of copper today, I wonder if 2/0 might be enough. I checked with the county and they told me the only inspection required was septic..... I asked what about the rest and she said ".... well we don't really have building codes here." I said w w what?? Can you repeat that please? haha. If that is the case, that would be a huge departure from what I'm used to. The encumbrance on the average folk from CA red tape is sooo overbearing that one project is about enough for a lifetime. QUESTIONS for you: So the meter is installed at the pole then? Over here, we need to install a meter box and service drop with about 2' pigtail. Electrical company takes it from there and installs meter into the box. Do you usually wait for electrical meter installed first, or do you install cable and then call electrical provider to "hook-up."? Also, did you install heatpump/AC because it's more cost effective? I was in a home with a heatpump a couple years back and it didn't really feel like "A/C". Just felt like fan. Also, thanks for the info on the tank size. So if I get a 1,000 gal tank with $2500 worth of propane, how long will that last in typical usage?

 

[Soundguy]

as said.. check your laws / codes.

in my area. i had to pay to have poles dropped.. they would span 100' between pole.. then they wired to my ag pole ... electrician had to wire that pole.. and then pow co connected it for me.

at home I installed underground service.. pow co sent a contractor to trench the line in.. then charged me for connection up to my meter base

 

[dave1949]

Dave1949, thanks for that information..... if I choose to lease the tank/equipment, will there be a monthly rental charge or initial acquisition cost for the tank, or is it basically a minimum subscription length type of relationship and I just buy the propane?

So if I get a 1,000 gal tank with $2500 worth of propane, how long will that last in typical usage?

Propane prices vary considerably around the country, as do the arrangements for tanks. It would be best call and ask what local suppliers do in your area at what price. How long the propane will last is impossible to answer unless someone lives in that area with a similar house and can give you a ballpark idea of their usage.

I am glad you can do your electric, I was afraid you would run into code compliance issues which can be inscrutable.

 

[greasemonkeyok]

If you own your propane tank, you can shop around. If you lease, you will get hosed on the price.

 

[LJH]

Can't help with the electrical or water questions but suggest getting the biggest propane tank you can afford for convenience.

Ours is 500 gallons, 1600 sq. ft. house, two people. We heat with wood and use propane for water heating, cooking, clothes dryer. Our backup generator is also plumbed to the tank and gets used several times a year as power outtages just come with the territory. It gets topped off once a year in late summer because the truck can't get in here during most of the winter months (snow/mud/ice/fun combinations of the three). In the 14 years we've been here the tank has never been lower than 30% at top-off but I still like having that extra capacity and would probably go even bigger if I had it to do over, just because I'm fond of overkill.

 

[Beltzington]

I'm sure all states and counties have some variations but when I had a 200-amp service buried (about 100') to my meter box it cost me $1200 and a minimum monthly charge of $25 whether I draw any juice or not. At the time I was planning to build but had not actually started to build. I told the electrical planner they sent out I just needed power for my well and he asked if I was sure I wasn't going to start construction soon. I said no and that is when he told me they would have to charge me for the installation, if I had been going to build they would have done it for free.
Best advice is to call the utility companies and schedule an appointment and they will come and discuss your needs and make a recommendation at no cost, just be sure to have a solid idea of what you want. Good Luck.

 

[Soundguy]

I had a 200-amp service .......it cost me $1200 and a minimum monthly charge of $25 whether I draw any juice or not. .

similar here. I have 100a service on my remote farm. 15$ charge per month even if I pull the meter can

with the well all month and whatever plug in power I use while there tending the animals.. average bill is 18.50$ per month.

yep.. 3.50$ of electricity. 15$ of convienience..

 

[1fastbob]

Dave1949, thanks for that information..... if I choose to lease the tank/equipment, will there be a monthly rental charge or initial acquisition cost for the tank, or is it basically a minimum subscription length type of relationship and I just buy the propane? I can install the electrical... I rewired and installed new service to my current home in CA where building codes are ridiculously tough, so I feel comfortable to do this. Yes, I might get a backup generator depending upon how reliable the service is. I don't want to do solar for a few reasons. #1, metal roof with roof trusses. I suspect high winds is common in the area.... #2, cost. I need to go as cheaply as possible for the time being.

1fastbob... I'm actually buying in Kansas.... in Vassar, actually, near the lake. Are you sure you only used 2 conductors? Seems like you would be missing neutral (2-hot, 1-neutral, 1-ground). Also, is there a reason you used 4/0? That's pretty thick and with the cost of copper today, I wonder if 2/0 might be enough. I checked with the county and they told me the only inspection required was septic..... I asked what about the rest and she said ".... well we don't really have building codes here." I said w w what?? Can you repeat that please? haha. If that is the case, that would be a huge departure from what I'm used to. The encumbrance on the average folk from CA red tape is sooo overbearing that one project is about enough for a lifetime. QUESTIONS for you: So the meter is installed at the pole then? Over here, we need to install a meter box and service drop with about 2' pigtail. Electrical company takes it from there and installs meter into the box. Do you usually wait for electrical meter installed first, or do you install cable and then call electrical provider to "hook-up."? Also, did you install heatpump/AC because it's more cost effective? I was in a home with a heatpump a couple years back and it didn't really feel like "A/C". Just felt like fan. Also, thanks for the info on the tank size. So if I get a 1,000 gal tank with $2500 worth of propane, how long will that last in typical usage?

2 hot 1 neutral actually (ground and neutral are the same). There are only 3 connections to my meter. I probably ought to have an earth ground, but my disconnects are 6 feet from the utility pole so it's ground seems to cover it. Note...I did the wiring myself, no inspections here where I am at and my area is not zoned.

Heat pumps when in A/C mode are no different that central air. They reverse the refrigerant flow to move heat from outside to inside the home. When it gets below 15 or 20 degrees they are not efficient on the heat side (air to air). I have a geothermal heatpump that uses the fairly constant ground temperature to move heat and cold so it is much more efficient and more costly too.

I had the power company install the pole and meter first so I could have power to build my home. Meter is on my pole, but keep in mind I live in south central Kansas and things may be different where you are. Just call the utility company and they will let you know what needs to be done.

Bob

 

[powerpace]

Contact your local provider for each utility. Contact your local inspectors. They will tell you exactly what you need and save you a lot of worry. Anybody else is basically guessing on your needs.

 

[The kid]

Hi Everyone.

Got a couple questions related to establishing new service. I am in the process of buying a home. Very rural area. As I've lived my entire life in relatively urban and suburban areas, this is new to me. The home is new, no service yet. Still needs to be completed which I will need to do.

Hoping some of you with some experience can enlighten me as to what to expect.

(1) Home needs electrical service. Power pole looks like approx 100 feet from home. I am thinking that I will need to install a meterbox and maybe 2-0 cable (4-conductors) in schedule 80 conduit underground to the pole. Can anyone confirm if this is about right? Anyone know if I should run the conduit right up to the pole itself with a 90? How far up should I terminate the conduit? How much pigtail is usually left over for the power company to complete the hookup? One last thing... if the conduit points straight up, uncapped... will it fill up with water?

(2) Same with water meter. Do I pick a spot or will the water company determine where they will install a meter and I connect from there?

(3) No natural gas, from what I understand. So I guess I will need to install some form of Propane tank. Question is (a) what size tank is typical for a residential home (4br, 2200 sq ft) and (b) is that something we install ourselves or does the tank seller typically install them and (c) what is typical ball park cost for these tanks and (4) I know that "it depends upon use..." but for a typical home, how long does a tankful usually go between fillups? I see propane here offered at $4 gallon but you need to bring in the portable tank. Obviously, that is not an option so I presume local propane service will deliver the propane and hopefully cheaper than $4/gal. Right now, I have no clue or expectation.

Thanks in advance.

Hello Superdude. I've never heard of running four conductors underground. Here in the middle Tennessee area you would require an UG type meterbase. These feed from the bottom and must have an approved earth ground. The wire size sounds about right for a 200 amp service. THere are strict guidelines the owner/electrician must follow as far as depth and size of conduit. PVC can be used underground here. Your electrical code may vary. Three wires required with one marked ground. Aluminum can be used, but my advise is to oversize using that. The utility neutral and base earth ground must be attached to the same bonding buss. Use electrical grease when mounting aluminum wire which will slow any aluminum corrosion. It's purpose is to eliminate air around the conductor. If your doing an underground service the electric utility here uses pressure squeezed on connectors that mount in the line side. It is your responsibility to mount the load side. You electric utility will give you guideline as to conduit size, and type, trench size and how far up the pole you need to go. Everything will be inspected when finished by either state or local electrical codes inspector.

Once the conduit is attached to the pole, just tape over it with some duct tape till the utility hooks up to it.

As for water. Normally the utility attaches a tap at the road and it's your responsibility to get it to the house. Depending on how far from meter to house, you will need to start large and gradually reduce your pipe size to keep the pressure right. Same way inside your home is done.

Depending on how rural you are but most use propane. If you have moderately mild winters you might go with a duel fuel heat pump. It uses propane as emergency recovery. You can get propane from a local propane provider who will bring the size tank you would need. They vary in size. I had a 400 gallon on a duel fuel here in Tennesee and it would last me all winter. If you use propane as primary gas heat then your cost is considerably more, but your electricity consumption is less, so it kind of averages out. Call around and get some quotes from your local propane providers. There advisors can select the right size tank you would need. We're also on budget billing and pay a level price year round and normally go into the black before the heating season starts. That too price varies around the country. Normally propane prices are down in the summer and many providers will allow you to buy in the summer (prepay) and save quite a bit of cash. Something to ask about. -robert

 

[Superduper]

@TheKid (Robert). Thank you for the very informative response. You've answered most of everything I asked. Not sure if there will be an electrical inspection or not. I called the county and it's very small county. They don't even have a building department. I'm told that no inspections are required except septic. Other than that, nothing. I was shocked but I won't fight it.

 

[coobie]

Contact your local provider for each utility. Contact your local inspectors. They will tell you exactly what you need and save you a lot of worry. Anybody else is basically guessing on your needs.

This is correct advise.I have been a electric lineman for 30 plus years.coobie

 

[dave1949]

@TheKid (Robert). Thank you for the very informative response. You've answered most of everything I asked. Not sure if there will be an electrical inspection or not. I called the county and it's very small county. They don't even have a building department. I'm told that no inspections are required except septic. Other than that, nothing. I was shocked but I won't fight it.

Even so, I'll bet the elec. utility will not connect you unless everything is to their standards from the pole through the main service panel. Coobie gave you good advice.

 

[The kid]

@TheKid (Robert). Thank you for the very informative response. You've answered most of everything I asked. Not sure if there will be an electrical inspection or not. I called the county and it's very small county. They don't even have a building department. I'm told that no inspections are required except septic. Other than that, nothing. I was shocked but I won't fight it.

If there is no inspector, then call the State you live in. Without proper inspections could create a loophole in case of fire with your insurance company. Codes, be it local or state does their job for a reason. To protect you from mistakes that could be deemed a hazard. If the state doesn't inspect, I'd really be surprised. The electric utility will aid you in guidelines if you decide to go underground. There is a underground type wire your suppose to use. The trench has to be X amount deep. The trench will need to be covered with certain size rock. There MUST be a yellow or red warning tape X amount of inches from the actual conduit. This falls into play "call before you dig". All this be it electrical or septic needs to be documented on your deed drawing on file with either the county or state.

Since you mentioned Septic inspection. Probably the same person does both. If you pay property taxes, well then there are inspectors. Without inspection you
eave yourself vulnerable being covered by insurance. Larger cities require the work be done by licensed electricians. You can get great satisfaction in building your own home, but it does get tiresome. Trust me, I know. Good luck - robert

 

[ustmd]

To echo what everyone else said, you need to talk to your local utility providers to see what the laws/policies are.

For electricity, our Co-op sells you you the over head line at a fixed rate, but the poles and installation are "free". For water, the meter needed to be located as close as possible to their main line. Propane, I can't say, because we are all electric

 

[The kid]

Even so, I'll bet the elec. utility will not connect you unless everything is to their standards from the pole through the main service panel. Coobie gave you good advice.

Did you read his and my post before making your assumption. I did say to contact the electric company for advise. I retired from the eighth largest electrical distributor/provider in the nation and know the difference between a crossarm and a CLF. I served for 35 years. The advise given by all is good advise. Some may not apply to his situation and some might. It's the OP that asked here for advise to broaden his horizon.