Low HP flail mower

[SI2305]

Greg_g

When I was making the tire size comment, I was keying in on the HP comparisons to the yanmar which was stated to be 16 pto and yet ran a 5 footer. My assumption was that since the HP was being stated in PTO terms, we had a reasonably close apples to apples comparison. The tire size comment was a simple observation of physics: given a constant power source, it will be easier to turn the smaller tire than the larger tire. I have heard a few 2320 owners mention that they cannot mow in high gear. Under the hood, my understanding is that the 2305 and the 2320 are basically the same machine. I believe they have the same engine, same transmission, and one of their few differences is the rear tire size. Personally, I have had no difficulty mowing in high gear (provided the ground is smooth). Therefore, I assumed that given the similar PTO (actually slightly favoring mine) and my smaller tire size (easier to move the prime mover), I could handle the same load he did.

As far as ratings for HP, I don't doubt that these are stated in the most advantageous terms and I agree with you that JD as well as just about every other manufacturer will state the best rating with which they can get away. Or even bend the truth a little. Maybe break it once in a while. Just not too much as to thoroughly discredit in the future.

Ultimately, I was trying to make the statement that if I took it slow, I might just be able to make use of all 60 of those cutting inches and make handy use of an offset to mow some of the brush by my rather long hedgerow.

As for the PEC, I understand the physics of how moving my lifting point further from center lessens the lifting ability by increasing the mechanical load on the lower arms that are doing the work. However, I use the PEC with my nearly 600# RFM with ease. My LX4 is about 450# but sticks much further from the tractor link ends and therefore exerts even more mechanical load. The Befco 60" flail mower is rated at 450# and is not nearly as long as my LX4. I think I am in safe as far as any potential lifting goes. As far as balancing, I have the loader on which certainly adds plenty of weight, and I do have a piece of hickory trunk 2&1/2 feet long by 20 inches in diameter. It makes wonderful balast.

I will state clearly for all. I know that I have a small tractor, but I am patient with my activities and I am careful with things like mowing in tight areas or mowing dense material and as the tractor labors to chew up more material, I am not going to aimlessly continue at the same speed. Instead I would either slow down, or alter direction so that not all of the mower is engaged in cutting at the same time. I might even have to back up and try again.

Greg_g, this might sound like a vitriolic response, but it is not. I do want to be challenged before I buy so this is why I have asked the questions and given info. I appreciate your comments, especially the ones regarding the rated power and your actual experience with PTO activities. That certainly says something is amiss with the HP ratings. But the larger tire size and mowing difficulty is a comment I have heard from several 2320 owners. I assume their engine HP is needed more for simple motive power and leaving less for rear PTO power by comparison to mine which requires less motive power to move the smaller tire. Either way, the solution is to slow down.

I may have over-analyzed this particular response, but my thoughts are in print now so you can see how I arrived at my conclusions.

I look forward to your response.

SI2305

JD 2305
200CX, LX4, 60" Grader blade, 60" LandPride finish mower that replaced our old lawn mower, middlebuster, home made grass rake for long field grass collection, and now a specialized trailer to move heavy logs

 

[greg_g]

Guess we don't share a common definition of vitriolic either. I thought that was a quite reasonable response. But I do think that business with tire size is a red herring. Tire diameter does in fact impact ground speed, but that should be the only effect on PTO operation. PTO operation itself is a function of engine RPMs - typically 540. PTO revs are usually determined by watching the tachometer and setting the hand throttle. From there, the operating efficiency of PTO implements like mowers is subsequently affected by ground speed. Go too fast, your cut suffers. Go too slow, you waste time and fuel.

Dig into your 2305 operator manual Specifications section. You should find a set of tables listing ground speed versus tire diameter. Pretty sure that should fix the over-analyzing problem.

//greg//

 

[SI2305]

Greg_g

It seems that we are going to have to disagree to agree. Yes, I do mean what I said and in that order. Since we are talking about an activity that involves both PTO operation (flail) and a prime mover (tractor going forward), then the easier the machine can go forward, the less power it robs from the PTO. In this case, smaller tires are easier to move and since the engine will be taxed to at or near its max, then the smaller tires are an asset.

If we were talking about a PTO intensive operation that did not involve movement, then tire size is irrelevant. PTO chipper/shredder would be a perfect example. In this case, the only relevant power is that coming out of the rear PTO.

However, since nearly every type of mowing at some time taxes the forward velocity of the tractor (bush hogging, finish mowing, and of course, flail mowing), at some point there needs to be a compromise. Usually this means just slowing down a bit. However, those larger tires are going to be tougher to turn than the smaller tires so when the heavy mowing hits, all things being equal, it will be the larger tire that slow down first.

All things are not equal and I was trying to make the balance sheet

Yanmar*******************2305
Gear*********************Hydro
Large tire*****************smaller tire
16 PTO*******************18 PTO (maybe)


They may not be equal, but they seem pretty well matched. I do think that the tire size, despite the length of our discussions, is the least relevant part of the equation. However, it might just help make up for that power loss associated with hydro's. Basically I hoped to mow at my usual speed which is in low gear and take it easy by the hedgerows. I don't see how I am going to get these with a 48", so my hope was that a 60" offset would clean those rows along with the trails that go along with them rather nicely.

So, despite my logic, rational, or reasoning, do you hazard a guess as to my being able to nimbly but carefully (no speed records) being able to operate a 60" offset flail mower, possibly from BEFCO?

SI2305

 

[greg_g]

In the olden days of the transmission PTO, you would be not far off the mark. But most tractors manufactured in the last 40 or more years have either live or independent PTOs. Here's an excerpt from TractorData.com:

Transmission

The simpliest, and earliest, form of PTO is the transmission PTO. The PTO shaft is directly connected to the tractor's transmission. The PTO is only working when the tractor's clutch is relased, so if you take the tractor out of gear while slowing down the PTO will stop working. This is a disadvantage in applications such as mowing.

An overrunning clutch is often needed with a transmission PTO. Without it, the driven equipment (such as mower blades) will put a force on the PTO shaft, and then the transmssion, due to inertia. The equipment will "drive" the tractor, and you will still move after using the tractor's transmission clutch. An overrunning clutch prevents this from happening by allowing the PTO shaft to freely spin in one direction. In more recent models, this is built into the tractor. In older tractors, it is an extra piece of equipment mounted on the PTO shaft.
​

Live (two-stage clutch)

A live PTO works with the use of a two-stage clutch. Pressing the clutch half-way will disengage the transmission while pressing it fully will disengage the transmission and the PTO. This allows the operator to slow down or change gears while the PTO is still operating.
​

Independent
An independent PTO means that the PTO shaft is controlled with a separate clutch. As with a live PTO, this allows for full control over the tractor while separately controlling the PTO. There are two major types of independent PTO; mechanical and hydraulic. A mechanical-independent PTO uses a separate on-off selector, in addition to the PTO control lever. Often the tractor must be stopped or off to change this selector position. A hydraulic-independent PTO uses a single selector.

And my previous suggestion remains germane; find a rental outfit (or a neighbor) that has a 5 footer, try before you buy.

//greg//

 

[SI2305]

Greg_g

Actually, those terms/definitions are quite useful as I never exactly understood what a "Live, overrunning clutch was". I have still heard of 2320 owners complain of not being able to mow in high gear or have their tractors struggle to go up hill in high while mine has never hesitated. In fact, it does not hesitate to do much of anything that I throw at it. Mind you, I really am not trying to find its limits for obvious financial reasons, but I attributed this phenomena to tire size.

I agree with a "try before you buy." Unfortunately I don't have that option, so my second best option is to hash it out here. My gut tells me I could probably handle the 60 inch if I were careful with it, I have seen enough video's to see it happen.

I am sure we will talk later,

SI 2305

 

[greg_g]

Comparing the 2305 to the 2320 is another case of apples and oranges.
The basic 2305 is a 1450 pound SCUT rated at 24.1 engine hp and 41.7 ft-lbs of torque.
The basic 2320 is a 1660 pound CUT rated at 24.0 engine hp and 40.27 ft-lbs of torque.
The performance difference is a matter of power to weight ratio, tire diameter doesn't enter the picture.

//greg//

 

[SI2305]

Greg_g

I think the particulars on the specs you showed to me are an example of what you stated earlier as Deere (and others) being choosy about just how they represent their engine stats. In your figures, the difference between the two machines is less than 1 HP and barely 1 ft/Lb of torque. I believe they use the same engine and tranny. The 200# difference is the only spec that is measurably different in a practical sense, but as this is still only %15 their gross weight I still don't think this is going to count for much, especially as one starts adding more weight to the machines in the form of loaders, mowers (of all types) and or course the operator himself. Add these together and that percentage marginal difference in weight gets even smaller. I do believe that tire diameter, perhaps the only significant factor left, will make a difference.

Take a hypothetical. If I were to add the tire of say a 4720 to my little tractor and assuming zero losses for the obviously complicated hardware, would I even be able to move my tractor now over a level parking lot? Probably, but it would not take much mechanical load anywhere on the system to bring this weird hybrid to a halt.

Take bicycles. As we get larger bikes for our growing kids, they always want the larger one until they realize that they have a much harder time pedaling than on the smaller one. The gear ratios are the same, it is just much harder for their little legs to move that larger diameter tire. Eventually, they will catch up to the physics and want a new bike and we move on (hopefully to a hand-me-down).

The same physics applies to tractors too, and I think that given the specs you mentioned to make the 2305 and the 2320 apples and oranges, I think they are really apples and apples in most situations.

We'll chat more

SI2305

 

[SI2305]

Knotweed,

This would be a great time for those pictures of your yanmar/flail operating. They have started a rather good debate and while they won't settle anything, I am itching to see what your 16 pto ponies can do with a 5' flail mower.

Hope to see your picts soon,

SI2305

JD 2305
200CX, LX4, 60" Grader blade, 60" LandPride finish mower that replaced our old lawn mower, middlebuster, home made grass rake for long field grass collection, and now a specialized trailer to move heavy logs

 

[IslandTractor]

200lbs of tractor weight doesn't seem very significant to me. A Kioti CK20 with 22hp weighs 2150lbs and would be just as effective. Yeah, when going up hills in high range tractor weight counts a bit but at mowing speeds in low or medium range it really is not a major factor in what horsepower remains to drive the PTO implement.

I would also agree that tire size is almost irrelevant as again the amount of horsepower needed to actually move the tractor itself is pretty small. If HP used in actual locomotion is maybe about 4-5hp and smaller tires give you 15-20% extra torque, that benefit amounts to less than a single hp.

To me the choice between 48 and 60 in this case is driven by the need to cut next to hedgerows. 60" works, 48 doesn't unless you spend a lot of time and effort offsetting the mower. The total acreage of grass that can be cut in a given time should be about the same in lush grass or brush as you could go faster with the 48 but you'd cut more each pass with the 60. In lighter grass the 60 would cut faster as PTO hp would not be a limiting factor.

 

[SI2305]

Island Tractor,

You are a voice of moderation in a heated but friendly discussion. It seems that initial points made by both sides have been blown out of proportion. I am curious as to your opinion. Knotweed runs his 5'flail/16PTO Yanmar. I thought that would be as good a comparison as any I have yet seen on this particular thread. My initial comment about the tire side was that it would partly offset HP losses from the hydro. I did not intend for this to become the focal point of discussion.

So what do you think? For comparison sake in a scenario where we can likely never get identical equipment to do side-by-side testing, does the following sound like reasonably close apples-to-apples comparison:

Yanmar*******************2305
Gear*********************Hydro (a minus)
Large tire*****************smaller tire (maybe nothing, maybe slight plus)
16 PTO*******************18 PTO (maybe) (small plus)
runs 5'Flail*****************don't know(?)
(Overall close to equal?)

Again, I highly doubt I will find someone with exactly my setup, but this seemed like a reasonably logical comparison--do you agree or am I misjudging? Thanks for your input. It is well placed and seems well reasoned

SI2305

JD 2305
200CX, LX4, 60" Grader blade, 60" LandPride finish mower that replaced our old lawn mower, middlebuster, home made grass rake for long field grass collection, and now a specialized trailer to move heavy logs

 

[IslandTractor]

My only concern with a 60" flail is the SCUT size. I don't think that is a deal breaker but I don't recall anyone using a flail on a SCUT so I don't have experience. The HP issue is not a biggie so long as you know you may need to go slower in lush grass etc. 3PT lift shouldn't be a big issue as you are already lifting some things that are as heavy and extend further back than a smallish flail. Wheel size is non issue.

Overall it sounds to me like you are not really going to stress either tractor or flail so long as you can accept moderate speeds. You are not a commercial operator so "time is money" does not apply. As noted earlier, the hedgerow issue is what would push me to go for the 60. I haven't heard of anyone putting a flail on a SCUT but I cannot see why it would be an issue. I'd get a 60 for my former CK20 without hesitation so power is not a big deal limiting factor either IMO.

 

[aczlan]

I would go for it (especially if you are buying used). A 60" flail will have a better resale value than a 48" one anyways.

Aaron Z

 

[GolfAddict]

I've been lurking on this thread since I'd really like to run a flail mower on the back of my little BX24. I think you all have me about convinced I would be OK with a 5ft, which I'd certainly prefer over a 4ft. I have the same concern, if my SCUT 3pt limitations will not allow it to hook up.

Put a call into my local Kubota dealer that also carries Befco, and he's going to contact Befco to see what they have to say. I'll let you all know what I find out. (SI2305: I know my SCUT is not the same as yours, but I'd think we are pretty close dimension-wise with the 3pt.)

IslandTractor, I don't have a price yet on the Befco, but I've seen in the other thread that Caroni is like half the price. The only place I find on the web that handles Caroni is AgriSupply. Is that who you dealt with?

 

[IslandTractor]

IslandTractor, I don't have a price yet on the Befco, but I've seen in the other thread that Caroni is like half the price. The only place I find on the web that handles Caroni is AgriSupply. Is that who you dealt with?

Yes. AgriSupply is the biggest importer of the Caroni flails and as a company they are pretty solid and straightforward to deal with. I have the TM1900 which has been great. Caroni is an excellent manufacturer of Ag products in Italy that is similar to Woods or Landpride in quality. These are not cheap imports. Unfortunately AgriSupply doesn't regularly import the B blade version ("rough cut") in the 59" size (TM1500) which is IMO would be the best one to get for field and brush work. I'm sure they will order it for you and I recall several people from TBN have gone that route over the years but the special orders are relatively expensive (few hundred more typically) and unless you want to pay even more in freight from Italy, you have to have your special order batched with one of AgriSupply's regular shipments from Italy. I recall people waiting a few months.

 

[GolfAddict]

Yes. AgriSupply is the biggest importer of the Caroni flails and as a company they are pretty solid and straightforward to deal with. I have the TM1900 which has been great. Caroni is an excellent manufacturer of Ag products in Italy that is similar to Woods or Landpride in quality. These are not cheap imports. Unfortunately AgriSupply doesn't regularly import the B blade version ("rough cut") in the 59" size (TM1500) which is IMO would be the best one to get for field and brush work. I'm sure they will order it for you and I recall several people from TBN have gone that route over the years but the special orders are relatively expensive (few hundred more typically) and unless you want to pay even more in freight from Italy, you have to have your special order batched with one of AgriSupply's regular shipments from Italy. I recall people waiting a few months.

I see now on their site that the 73" is the TM and the 59" is the TL version. Argh!!

 

[IslandTractor]

I see now on their site that the 73" is the TM and the 59" is the TL version. Argh!!

Yep. For pasture mowing the TL would probably be fine and you could remove half the blades to increase cutting capacity. For bush hogging though I would not be so confident. Certainly a "finish" flail is going to do light bush hogging much better than a finish rotary mower but it certainly is not optimized for brush cutting. The B blade version has blades mounted on a clevis and the clevis is mounted to the rotor station so there are two independent pivots for the blade and one allows sideways pivoting too. With the finish rotor you attach the blade directly to the rotor station so there is no sideways pivot possible.

I think it is a tough call. If hedgerow mowing doesn't involve cutting stuff more than half an inch thick and doesn't involve sticking the mower into places you cannot see rocks etc then I don't think there would be any problem using the TL version. For real bush hogging though the TM is much better. The TM gives a pretty good finish cut too.

 

[SI2305]

GolfAddict,

Glad to hear that I am not the only SCUT owner out there seriously considering a flail mower. I would love to hear what info you can find, especially as you have a dealer selling flails. While JD sells flail mowers, they are basically out of my price range, HP range, etc. I agree with you, I do not really see a problem with the 3pt, but then your dealer should be able to help you out there if there is an issue. When I started this thread I never imagined it would grow so large, but I am glad that others could benefit.

Good luck on your search and keep us informed.

SI2305


JD 2305
200CX, LX4, 60" Grader blade, 60" LandPride finish mower that replaced our old lawn mower, middlebuster, home made grass rake for long field grass collection, and now a specialized trailer to move heavy logs

 

[leonz]

I've been lurking on this thread since I'd really like to run a flail mower on the back of my little BX24. I think you all have me about convinced I would be OK with a 5ft, which I'd certainly prefer over a 4ft. I have the same concern, if my SCUT 3pt limitations will not allow it to hook up.

Put a call into my local Kubota dealer that also carries Befco, and he's going to contact Befco to see what they have to say. I'll let you all know what I find out. (SI2305: I know my SCUT is not the same as yours, but I'd think we are pretty close dimension-wise with the 3pt.)

IslandTractor, I don't have a price yet on the Befco, but I've seen in the other thread that Caroni is like half the price. The only place I find on the web that handles Caroni is AgriSupply. Is that who you dealt with?

GolfAddict,

Glad to hear that I am not the only SCUT owner out there seriously considering a flail mower. I would love to hear what info you can find, especially as you have a dealer selling flails. While JD sells flail mowers, they are basically out of my price range, HP range, etc. I agree with you, I do not really see a problem with the 3pt, but then your dealer should be able to help you out there if there is an issue. When I started this thread I never imagined it would grow so large, but I am glad that others could benefit.

Good luck on your search and keep us informed.

SI2305


JD 2305
200CX, LX4, 60" Grader blade, 60" LandPride finish mower that replaced our old lawn mower, middlebuster, home made grass rake for long field grass collection, and now a specialized trailer to move heavy logs

Well,

Now that both of you are at the throw
the cow poop at the wall stage to
see if it sticks there are a couple
of things.........................


1. overall utility versus cost.

a. Manually sideshifting a flailmower and then mowing
the purchase of a 48" hydraulically side shifting flailmower
Seppi flailmower in this example
Vrisimo 48 inch flailmower with manual side shift

b. Available power at the Power Take Off
of the prime mover at recommended speed.

c. knive count/side slicer count per foot of mower width

d. Rotor diameter as a function of mowing height/larger rotor diameter allows you to have greater knive count as the flail mower
rotors outside diameter is larger than the rear roller and permits you to double your side slicer pairs to mow more efficiently and
effectlvely IF desired.
d1. side slicer knive length
d2. The diameter of the rear roller of said flailmowers
e. purchase a new propeller shaft for said flailmower

2. cost versus desired overall utility for
using one flail mower for everything
(which many of us do)

a. adjustable mowing height for multiple passes down
to the sod to control invasives.


3. new versus used.
a. The verifiable fact that any width of
cut flail mower is going to outlive your
current mule and be useable for each
subsequent mule you buy with 70-90
horsepower as a plateau.



4. actual weeding needs- undersand that there are weed killers available
including flame weeders that can be used safely around trees to reduce
mowing OR the use of Weed Control Fabric in long rolls which is
econoomical to purchase as it has an extremely long life span
once installed.(from FarmTek as an example)

Its fine to manage what "you" want to manage BUUUUUUUTTTTT,
your life and time and the lack of it are going to get in the way.
which is why high quality weed fabric that lasts for 20 years and
is sunlight proof should be examined as an option.

Been there done that, have fabric.

The weed control fabric WILL NOT get sucked into the flailmower as
long as it is properly installed with the pins/fabric nails.


The one time installation a roll of weed control fabric and pinning
it in place would allow the quick mowing to occur with either size
but the elimination of the mowing under the hedgerow would allow
you to purchase a 4 foot P.T.O., powered flailmower from any retailer
and reduce your mowing to an absolute minimum.


Many of us have used flail mowers that are in good condition,work very well,
are able to obtain parts (as most parts and hangers except for the knives are generic) and many of the mowers are 30 plus years old.

ANY 4 foot width like a Seppi or Vrisimo or Caroni or Loftness will out last your mule or successive mules as long as you maintain it.

I use my motorised finish flailmower for everything as I keep the cutting height very low to control invasives. I have to purchase 64 new thatching blades to replace the 32 year old ones now.

My father used his first 36 lawn genie finish mower to knock down 10-12 foot tall goldenrod in old pasture and this allowed my mother to jog for exercise on a clean smooth path with good footing
rather than on the county road.

A 48-60 inch fine cut flail mower will shred
faster and the clippings will degrade faster for you
and if you drive too fast or have to low a throttle
setting you will tear up belts and accomplish nothing
as you are not properly operating the mower at its
optimum speed for the task at hand.


Examine the issues completely then decide using the Ben Franklin closing argument where you draw a line down the center of a piece of paper and then place a positive sign on the right side and a negative sign on the left side and then continue with the algebra problem until you have a conclusion/answer


Unless you are willing to examine it in detail the debate is pointless as you alone know what some of your variables are:

Being;


Cost of New flail mower
Cost of used flailmower in good condition (yes they are out there and you can get parts)
Banded double or single B size V belts
Spare hangers and knives are a must for any flailmower during mowing season:

Saying that/the heat treated knives/side slicers are best for longevity

A wet well knive grinder for scizzors/kitchen knives used only for the flailmower is your friend as the temper and hardening will not be ruined by a wet well grinder as it cools as it sharpens the edge.



Time available
Actual time available!!! which is what is needed to cut a second time to control invasives to god turf as they wil become more prevalent with thinning and brush clearing.

Life span of a 60 inch mower = X- (A flailmower hood will outlast a rotary mower as it stronger in construction)
Life span of a 48 inch mower= X same as above

My motorised flail mower was bought new and is 32 years old and has been well cared for with only main bearing changes (first set after 28 years, new tires and wheels replace wheel bushings with heavy roller bearings and replacement engine parts,fan hoods/starter clutches,recoil springs, starter rope, throttle springs, throtle levers and throttle cable controls.




As far as ground conditions:
traction/adhesion available MEANING HIDDEN MUD ISSUES!!!!!
Tire size and type is a moot POINT!!!!Dont over think this part as I have been using turf tires for 32 years.
Cost of 6 foot wide weed fabric and fabric pins and your time to install it AS A ONE TIME WEED STOPPER IN PROBLEM AREAS!!!
DO you have deluxe seat on the 2305 or a fender radio? Back ache is a huge factor.



_________________________________________________________________
Once you go flail you never go back:thumbsup::licking::drool:
Pronovost or not at all!!!:thumbsup::licking::drool:

 

[SI2305]

Leonz,

You mentioned weed barrier fabric several times. I am assuming you are referring to the sorta ground carpet put in place to block sunlight. Would it be your intention to put this under/directly adjacent to the hedgerow? I have used these before with varying success and I think you are right, in order for it to work, it must be a high quality one properly installed. My main invasive weed is Japanese honeysuckle. It is a beautiful, fragrant vine that grows all year long, even through snows, takes over hill and dale if allowed and can completely smother an entire hedge. My only success has been at cutting it off at the root level and keep cutting it off. Otherwise, I have seen the stuff take down 40' hardwood trees by chocking them out.

My point. I Think a flail would work nicely for this invasive, but you mentioned the arrival of invasives AFTER mowing. Are you referring to those invasives that will thrive due to increased sunlight? I am not entirely certain what the connection is between flail mowing and invasive species.

You have a wealth of knowledge for the newbies here. We appreciate it.

SI2305

JD 2305
200CX, LX4, 60" Grader blade, 60" LandPride finish mower that replaced our old lawn mower, middlebuster, home made grass rake for long field grass collection, and now a specialized trailer to move heavy logs

 

[greg_g]

Just for the record, honeysuckle is rampant here. My sheep used to keep it under control, they ate literally every molecule that tried to sneak over/under/around/through the fences. The other side of the fence posed a different problem though. The new vines are so skinny, that they get between the knives and wrap themselves around the carrier. Mine's a rough cut, only 33 knives. The other problem is that the vines want to root as they crawl. So you need to get your blade down to the point where they're literally dethatching. Dulls them up real fast.

For honeysuckle, my vote goes to RoundUp and subsequent fabric control

//greg//